NATION

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Religion v. The Nation

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Religion or your nation?

My religion (including if I have no nation but a religion)
33
35%
My nation (including if I have no religion but a nation)
25
26%
My religion sanctions my nation
4
4%
I have two masters and I pretend that I can serve them both equally
4
4%
I have no gods, no masters!
29
31%
 
Total votes : 95

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
Minister
 
Posts: 3374
Founded: Jul 14, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:15 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Berhakonia wrote:Alright kiddies, I see that some of you are a bit slow, but don't worry, everybody's a winner! Now, Timmy, let me explain to you why the cultural dominance of religion outweighs that of the state.

Again, not what was asked.
Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:To what extent would you say it should influence someone's life?

I think it should be the top collective identity and as such have a guiding influence on most decisions. Which it does, for most.

Like, serving the United Kingdom is the top priority of my decisions? Pfft, this is the UK, not North Korea.

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:16 pm

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:Like, serving the United Kingdom is the top priority of my decisions?

No, like the cultural values of the UK drilled into you since birth form the guiding basis of your decisions.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
Minister
 
Posts: 3374
Founded: Jul 14, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:18 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:Like, serving the United Kingdom is the top priority of my decisions?

No, like the cultural values of the UK drilled into you since birth form the guiding basis of your decisions.

You do know the values of democracy, individual liberty, tolerance and respect for diversity are not unique to the UK, and are shared by most other Western nations.

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:19 pm

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:You do know the values of democracy, individual liberty, tolerance and respect for diversity are not unique to the UK, and are shared by most other Western nations.

I don't see how that contradicts my point.
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Frostnia
Envoy
 
Posts: 272
Founded: Aug 06, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Frostnia » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:22 pm

I don't really get how people are misinterpreting CM's point
MT nation composed of people from every nation with a current Antarctic base. NS stats somewhat apply (despite them being generally stupid). I would use my factbooks but I'm lazy and haven't gotten around to it yet.

Antarctica is a pretty "cool" place.
I'm not sorry

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Ratateague
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1568
Founded: Dec 25, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ratateague » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:24 pm

Eh, dismiss religion as you will.. nation's are constructs themselves. Imagined identities and borders geographically dividing people with perceived differences. Regimes change, borders shift, groups restructure. It's just an easier way to wrap our head around the organized chaos of millions in conflict and competition with each other. Oversimplifying it makes it easier to stomach the murder, neglect, and waste.
Society prepares the crime, the criminal commits it. -Henry Thomas Buckle
When money speaks, the truth is silent. -Russian Proverb
'|

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:25 pm

Ratateague wrote:Eh, dismiss religion as you will.. nation's are constructs themselves. Imagined identities and borders geographically dividing people with perceived differences. Regimes change, borders shift, groups restructure. It's just an easier way to wrap our head around the organized chaos of millions in conflict and competition with each other. Oversimplifying it makes it easier to stomach the murder, neglect, and waste.

Language is a construct. Self is a construct. The concept of a construct is a construct. Saying something is a construct is meaningless in and of itself.
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Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
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Bewhua
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Apr 17, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bewhua » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:27 pm

What happens if i'm not religious and am against the concept of a "nation", and are actively anti-patriotic? Would the right answer be "Neither"?

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:27 pm

Bewhua wrote:What happens if i'm not religious and am against the concept of a "nation", and are actively anti-patriotic? Would the right answer be "Neither"?

"No gods, no masters"
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
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Ratateague
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1568
Founded: Dec 25, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ratateague » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:28 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Language is a construct. Self is a construct. The concept of a construct is a construct. Saying something is a construct is meaningless in and of itself.
Nagarjuna would like a word with you.
Society prepares the crime, the criminal commits it. -Henry Thomas Buckle
When money speaks, the truth is silent. -Russian Proverb
'|

User avatar
Dogmeat
Minister
 
Posts: 2740
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Dogmeat » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:29 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bewhua wrote:What happens if i'm not religious and am against the concept of a "nation", and are actively anti-patriotic? Would the right answer be "Neither"?

"No gods, no masters"

This. Except I'll pretty much do anything for someone in a blue jumpsuit.
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User avatar
Bewhua
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Apr 17, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bewhua » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:30 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bewhua wrote:What happens if i'm not religious and am against the concept of a "nation", and are actively anti-patriotic? Would the right answer be "Neither"?

"No gods, no masters"

Fair enough. One thing though, you mentioned in a debate earlier how you should stand with what has been "drilled" into your mind, right? Well, doesn't that sound very bad? What happened to independent thought?

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:32 pm

Bewhua wrote:Fair enough. One thing though, you mentioned in a debate earlier how you should stand with what has been "drilled" into your mind, right? Well, doesn't that sound very bad? What happened to independent thought?

Cultural grounding is how we function as a society. It's no more 'bad' than being taught any other form of values. Few people complain about ideals of individuality and personal responsibility being drilled into us, but there's little doubt that such ideas are cultural rather than inherent. If being taught means you're no longer independently thinking, no one in history has been independent in that sense.
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Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

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Bewhua
Secretary
 
Posts: 26
Founded: Apr 17, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bewhua » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:39 pm

Cultural grounding is how we function as a society. It's no more 'bad' than being taught any other form of values. Few people complain about ideals of individuality and personal responsibility being drilled into us, but there's little doubt that such ideas are cultural rather than inherent. If being taught means you're no longer independently thinking, no one in history has been independent in that sense.

I disagree. You can perfectly understand that murder is wrong without thinking your nation is amazing and you should always side with them, or that gay people are evil, or that free markets are good, or etc.

How nations have indoctrinated their youth isn't how we function as a society. And independent thought isn't cultural, it's not biased in any way and it's quite simple; demand justification for everything.
Last edited by Bewhua on Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:54 pm

Bewhua wrote:I disagree. You can perfectly understand that murder is wrong without thinking your nation is amazing and you should always side with them, or that gay people are evil, or that free markets are good, or etc.

... none of that is relevant in any way.
How nations have indoctrinated their youth isn't how we function as a society. And independent thought isn't cultural, it's not biased in any way and it's quite simple; demand justification for everything.

Funny how that attitude is so recent and regional for such a universal and 'simple' thing.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
Minister
 
Posts: 3374
Founded: Jul 14, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:01 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Bewhua wrote:Fair enough. One thing though, you mentioned in a debate earlier how you should stand with what has been "drilled" into your mind, right? Well, doesn't that sound very bad? What happened to independent thought?

Cultural grounding is how we function as a society. It's no more 'bad' than being taught any other form of values. Few people complain about ideals of individuality and personal responsibility being drilled into us, but there's little doubt that such ideas are cultural rather than inherent. If being taught means you're no longer independently thinking, no one in history has been independent in that sense.

Many human moral behaviours, such as opposition to murder, are evolutionary in origin (groups of humans which didn't kill each other had a greater chance of survival and reproduction)

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:02 pm

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:Many human moral behaviours, such as opposition to murder, are evolutionary in origin (groups of humans which didn't kill each other had a greater chance of survival and reproduction)

Funny how opposition to murder is also quite recent. Groups of humans that killed competitors had greater chances of survival and reproduction.
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
Minister
 
Posts: 3374
Founded: Jul 14, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:05 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:Many human moral behaviours, such as opposition to murder, are evolutionary in origin (groups of humans which didn't kill each other had a greater chance of survival and reproduction)

Funny how opposition to murder is also quite recent. Groups of humans that killed competitors had greater chances of survival and reproduction.

Groups of humans that killed EACH OTHER WITHIN THE GROUP had lesser chances of survival and reproduction. Natural selection.

Also, groups of humans which kill outsiders tend to dehumanise said outsiders.

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Dagnia
Senator
 
Posts: 3889
Founded: Jul 27, 2004
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Dagnia » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:23 pm

I'm an American citizen and a Rodnover (pre-Christian Slavic paganism). I consider both current US citizens of all races and other Slavs (both those in Slavic nations today as well as those of at least half Slavic descent in other countries) to be my nation or tribe and subscribe to the pre-Christian belief that people outside your tribe or nation are not worth the shit you flush down the toilet. If there is ever a conflict between the two that makes me choose one over the other, I would choose who I consider right in that situation. Most Slavic nations are friendly with the US, however the largest one has many issues. Given the current situation, I believe the issues between the US and this country are manufactured mostly by interests in the US, so I would go against the country of my citizenship, but this is very unlikely to actually happen.
Logikie: [Dagnia seems like] some weird type of zen-fascism/hippy nazi state

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Mystic Warriors
Minister
 
Posts: 3180
Founded: May 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Mystic Warriors » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:39 pm

Since there is no God and the other is nationalism.. Neither.
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Risottia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53011
Founded: Sep 05, 2006
New York Times Democracy

Postby Risottia » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:46 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters ...

Ni dieu ni maitre!

I do not "side" with anyone as a principle. I'll take the stance I seem to be just and work with those who share my opinion on that matter, but I swear no allegiance.
Statanist through and through.
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The East Marches II
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18033
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:49 am

Risottia wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters ...

Ni dieu ni maitre!

I do not "side" with anyone as a principle. I'll take the stance I seem to be just and work with those who share my opinion on that matter, but I swear no allegiance.


I could have sworn you were the arch defender of "mutti" (as you call her) and her band of merry neoliberals, don't tell me you are so "pragmatic" as to eschew that affiliation now
Last edited by The East Marches II on Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The East Marches II
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18033
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:51 am

Conserative Morality wrote:Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters, and even though I'm an atheist, I largely agree with this. There is always a superior and inferior in loyalties. Which is the superior loyalty for you? Which side needs watch you - your coreligionists, or your countrymen?


Such a Catholic and Evangelical view! The State can control the church my good man :^)

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Old Tyrannia
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 15372
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Old Tyrannia » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:29 am

There is no meaningful distinction between the two for me. I live in a Christian monarchy where church and state are indelibly linked and my Sovereign reigns by the grace of God. The triumph of my country is the triumph of the Christian faith; and what harms the Christian faith harms my country.
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The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43030
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:38 am

The state's authority is divinely mandated, it's like asking whether I obey the clergy, or God. The only time I can disobey the state is when I am ordered to do something immoral. I would also disobey it if it became unlawful (as I would clergy which became criminal).
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