NATION

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Religion v. The Nation

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Religion or your nation?

My religion (including if I have no nation but a religion)
33
35%
My nation (including if I have no religion but a nation)
25
26%
My religion sanctions my nation
4
4%
I have two masters and I pretend that I can serve them both equally
4
4%
I have no gods, no masters!
29
31%
 
Total votes : 95

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Conserative Morality
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Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Religion v. The Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:19 pm

Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters, and even though I'm an atheist, I largely agree with this. There is always a superior and inferior in loyalties. Which is the superior loyalty for you? Which side needs watch you - your coreligionists, or your countrymen?
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Firaxin
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Posts: 1324
Founded: Sep 28, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Firaxin » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:23 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters, and even though I'm an atheist, I largely agree with this. There is always a superior and inferior in loyalties. Which is the superior loyalty for you? Which side needs watch you - your coreligionists, or your countrymen?

Why not both? Why can one not serve the nation and God at the same time? Just because God is my true master, do I not get to help the nation?

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Conserative Morality
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Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:24 pm

Firaxin wrote:Why not both? Why can one not serve the nation and God at the same time? Just because God is my true master, do I not get to help the nation?

The interests of any two groups with broad enough mandates inevitably conflict. When one measure is in support of your religion and the other is in support of your nation, you cannot choose 'both'.
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The South Falls
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13354
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:27 pm

My god will Trump my nation, in a way. But, sometimes His views line up with the nation's. see what I did there...
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A m e n r i a
Minister
 
Posts: 3451
Founded: Jun 08, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby A m e n r i a » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:29 pm

My religion of course. The president may be the most powerful man in the nation, but God is the most powerful being in the multiverse. Might as well side with the winning team.
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Firaxin
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Posts: 1324
Founded: Sep 28, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Firaxin » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:29 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Firaxin wrote:Why not both? Why can one not serve the nation and God at the same time? Just because God is my true master, do I not get to help the nation?

The interests of any two groups with broad enough mandates inevitably conflict. When one measure is in support of your religion and the other is in support of your nation, you cannot choose 'both'.

Ah, I see. So you’re saying something along the lines of “If the state were to mandate Compulsory Atheism would you comply?”. No I would not, but I would still try to help my countrymen and change the state for the greater good.

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19677
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:29 pm

Firaxin wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters, and even though I'm an atheist, I largely agree with this. There is always a superior and inferior in loyalties. Which is the superior loyalty for you? Which side needs watch you - your coreligionists, or your countrymen?

Why not both? Why can one not serve the nation and God at the same time? Just because God is my true master, do I not get to help the nation?


You certainly can in day to day life; but what will you do when your nation and your god tell you to do opposite things. Who will you obey.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
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Gig em Aggies
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7453
Founded: Aug 15, 2009
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Gig em Aggies » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:29 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Firaxin wrote:Why not both? Why can one not serve the nation and God at the same time? Just because God is my true master, do I not get to help the nation?

The interests of any two groups with broad enough mandates inevitably conflict. When one measure is in support of your religion and the other is in support of your nation, you cannot choose 'both'.

Actually you can case in point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss this guy refused to kill for his country because of his religion instead he chose to heal for his country as a combat medic during WW2 so yes you can serve both God and country.
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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:32 pm

Gig em Aggies wrote:Actually you can case in point https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss this guy refused to kill for his country because of his religion instead he chose to heal for his country as a combat medic during WW2 so yes you can serve both God and country.

I am sure that it wasn't the sacrifices of others who enabled that; if the nation was supported by men like him I am sure we would have healed the Japanese into submission!

He wasn't placed in a position where he had to choose.
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Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol
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Posts: 1235
Founded: Jun 02, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:32 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters, and even though I'm an atheist, I largely agree with this. There is always a superior and inferior in loyalties. Which is the superior loyalty for you? Which side needs watch you - your coreligionists, or your countrymen?


I prefer to use the term “the Republic” rather than the “the Nation”, but that is what I’m loyal to.
Officially retired as of 8/10/2018. Don’t bother sending TG’s since I’m not coming back.

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:34 pm

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Which do you side with, your religion or your nation? Christianity posits that one cannot have two masters, and even though I'm an atheist, I largely agree with this. There is always a superior and inferior in loyalties. Which is the superior loyalty for you? Which side needs watch you - your coreligionists, or your countrymen?


I prefer to use the term “the Republic” rather than the “the Nation”, but that is what I’m loyal to.

Well, I prefer to say "The Union" rather than 'The Nation", but I'm also aware that not everyone is an American, so I used the broader term. ;)
On the hate train. Choo choo, bitches. Bi-Polar. Proud Crypto-Fascist and Turbo Progressive. Dirty Étatist. Lowly Humanities Major. NSG's Best Liberal.
Caesar and Imperator of RWDT
Got a blog up again. || An NS Writing Discussion

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
Minister
 
Posts: 3374
Founded: Jul 14, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:39 pm

I'm an atheist, so I don't serve religion at all. I would serve my nation to an extent, unless if it was completely out of line with my moral compass (i.e. the UK turned totalitarian for some reason)

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Firaxin
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Posts: 1324
Founded: Sep 28, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Firaxin » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:42 pm

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:I'm an atheist, so I don't serve religion at all. I would serve my nation to an extent, unless if it was completely out of line with my moral compass (i.e. the UK turned totalitarian for some reason)

I think that’s the same with the religious in the thread, just that their moral code includes a faith of some kind. Perhaps the threads name and OP should be changed to reflect that. Personal Moral Code V. The Nation instead.

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Qroma
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 151
Founded: Jun 26, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Qroma » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:46 pm

I’d rather fight a war with my nation than preform crusades with my fellow atheists.
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Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol
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Posts: 1235
Founded: Jun 02, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:48 pm

Firaxin wrote:
Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:I'm an atheist, so I don't serve religion at all. I would serve my nation to an extent, unless if it was completely out of line with my moral compass (i.e. the UK turned totalitarian for some reason)

I think that’s the same with the religious in the thread, just that their moral code includes a faith of some kind. Perhaps the threads name and OP should be changed to reflect that. Personal Moral Code V. The Nation instead.


I must say, that when I was a far-right Traditionalist Catholic, I believed that the United States, along with every other nation should be a Roman Catholic version of Saudi Arabia...
Officially retired as of 8/10/2018. Don’t bother sending TG’s since I’m not coming back.

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19677
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:48 pm

Firaxin wrote:
Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:I'm an atheist, so I don't serve religion at all. I would serve my nation to an extent, unless if it was completely out of line with my moral compass (i.e. the UK turned totalitarian for some reason)

I think that’s the same with the religious in the thread, just that their moral code includes a faith of some kind. Perhaps the threads name and OP should be changed to reflect that. Personal Moral Code V. The Nation instead.


To be fair, the nation tends to have jails. Religions tend to have a hell of sorts.
Your personal moral code just makes you feel bad when you go against it.
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Frostnia
Envoy
 
Posts: 272
Founded: Aug 06, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Frostnia » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:49 pm

Nation. I prefer to stick with things I actually believe exist
MT nation composed of people from every nation with a current Antarctic base. NS stats somewhat apply (despite them being generally stupid). I would use my factbooks but I'm lazy and haven't gotten around to it yet.

Antarctica is a pretty "cool" place.
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Berdan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 117
Founded: Jan 29, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Berdan » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:49 pm

My nation's texts say to keep church and state separate. The holy book of the predominant religion in my country says to give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. My nation outranks any higher power, though I would not do something I believe to be unjust simply because I am commanded to do so by my nation.
This nation in no way represents my IRL political views.

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The Alma Mater
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19677
Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:50 pm

Berdan wrote:My nation's texts say to keep church and state separate. The holy book of the predominant religion in my country says to give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. My nation outranks any higher power, though I would not do something I believe to be unjust simply because I am commanded to do so by my nation.

What would you do if your nation banned your religion ?
Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease.
It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on.
- Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

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Berdan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 117
Founded: Jan 29, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Berdan » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:52 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Berdan wrote:My nation's texts say to keep church and state separate. The holy book of the predominant religion in my country says to give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. My nation outranks any higher power, though I would not do something I believe to be unjust simply because I am commanded to do so by my nation.

What would you do if your nation banned your religion ?

If the nation that says "Keep the cross and crescent out of our laws" were to suddenly ban Athiesm, I think I'd be up in arms because at that point the government would be an unlawful theocracy perverting the course of the nation.
This nation in no way represents my IRL political views.

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Berhakonia
Envoy
 
Posts: 252
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Berhakonia » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:54 pm

Why would I support a nation that persecutes against a fundamental building block of my personal character?
A federation of kingdoms, united by the Imperial Throne of Stannismarck
The only competent ruler is he who serves his people, honors them like the Saints in heaven, and devotes his life to God alone.
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Chan Island
Senator
 
Posts: 4770
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:54 pm

Tend towards the nation but in all honesty they are very equal in my eyes. It would depend on the precise circumstances.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76677
Founded: Aug 24, 2007
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Conserative Morality » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:55 pm

Berhakonia wrote:Why would I support a nation that persecutes against a fundamental building block of my personal character?

The Nation is not a fundamental building block of your personal character?
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Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol
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Founded: Jun 02, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:55 pm

Berhakonia wrote:Why would I support a nation that persecutes against a fundamental building block of my personal character?

If you don’t like the basic values of the nation you live in, then why not move?
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Berhakonia
Envoy
 
Posts: 252
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Berhakonia » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:56 pm

One thing I've noticed from you and Parkus, is that both of you enjoy baiting users into rage.

Not saying it's a bannable offense, but it makes you look annoying and immature.
A federation of kingdoms, united by the Imperial Throne of Stannismarck
The only competent ruler is he who serves his people, honors them like the Saints in heaven, and devotes his life to God alone.
-Emperor Janius XIV Chrysostom, Son of Axeres VII
Monarchist, Future Tech, Space Travel
Supports:
Eastern Orthodox Theocracy, Absolute Monarchism, Ecological Sustainability


Against:
Secularism, Democracy, Heresy and Schism

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