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Study suggests we invent social issues where there are none

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Iridencia
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Study suggests we invent social issues where there are none

Postby Iridencia » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:46 am

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/1465

"Prevalence-induced concept change in human judgment"

"Perceptual and judgment creep
Do we think that a problem persists even when it has become less frequent? Levari et al. show experimentally that when the “signal” a person is searching for becomes rare, the person naturally responds by broadening his or her definition of the signal—and therefore continues to find it even when it is not there. From low-level perception of color to higher-level judgments of ethics, there is a robust tendency for perceptual and judgmental standards to “creep” when they ought not to. For example, when blue dots become rare, participants start calling purple dots blue, and when threatening faces become rare, participants start calling neutral faces threatening. This phenomenon has broad implications that may help explain why people whose job is to find and eliminate problems in the world often cannot tell when their work is done.

Science, this issue p. 1465"

"Abstract
Why do some social problems seem so intractable? In a series of experiments, we show that people often respond to decreases in the prevalence of a stimulus by expanding their concept of it. When blue dots became rare, participants began to see purple dots as blue; when threatening faces became rare, participants began to see neutral faces as threatening; and when unethical requests became rare, participants began to see innocuous requests as unethical. This “prevalence-induced concept change” occurred even when participants were forewarned about it and even when they were instructed and paid to resist it. Social problems may seem intractable in part because reductions in their prevalence lead people to see more of them."


https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/06/harvard-researchers-may-have-answer-to-why-youre-never-satisfied/

By several measures, including rates of poverty and violence, progress is an international reality. Why, then, do so many of us believe otherwise?

The answer, Harvard researcher Daniel Gilbert says, may lie in “prevalence-induced concept change.”

In a series of studies, Gilbert, the Edgar Pierce Professor of Psychology, his postdoctoral student David Levari, and several other researchers show that as the prevalence of a problem is reduced, humans are inclined to redefine the problem. As a problem becomes smaller, conceptualizations of the problem expand, which can lead to progress being discounted. The research is described in a paper in the June 29 issue of Science.

“Our studies show that people judge each new instance of a concept in the context of the previous instances,” Gilbert said. “So as we reduce the prevalence of a problem, such as discrimination, for example, we judge each new behavior in the improved context that we have created.”

“Another way to say this is that solving problems causes us to expand our definitions of them,” he said. “When problems become rare, we count more things as problems. Our studies suggest that when the world gets better, we become harsher critics of it, and this can cause us to mistakenly conclude that it hasn’t actually gotten better at all. Progress, it seems, tends to mask itself.”

The phenomenon isn’t limited to large, seemingly intractable social issues, Gilbert said. In several experiments described in the paper, it emerged even when participants were merely asked to look for blue dots.

“We had volunteers look at thousands of dots on a computer screen one at a time and decide if each was or was not blue,” Gilbert said. “We lowered the prevalence of blue dots, and what we found was that our participants began to classify as blue dots they had previously classified as purple.”

Even when participants were warned of the tendency, and even when they were offered money to avoid it, they continued to alter their definitions of blue. Another experiment, this one using faces, showed similar results. When the prevalence of threatening faces was reduced, people began to identify neutral faces as threatening.

Perhaps the most socially relevant of the studies described in the paper, Gilbert said, involved participants acting as members of an institutional review board, checking research methodology to ensure that scientific studies were ethical.

“We asked participants to review proposals for studies that varied from highly ethical to highly unethical,” he said. “Over time, we lowered the prevalence of unethical studies, and sure enough, when we did that, our participants started to identify innocuous studies as unethical.”

Prevalence-induced concept change sometimes makes perfect sense, Gilbert noted, as in the case of an emergency room doctor trying to triage patients.

“If the ER is full of gunshot victims and someone comes in with a broken arm, the doctor will tell that person to wait,” he said. “But imagine one Sunday where there are no gunshot victims. Should that doctor hold her definition of ‘needing immediate attention’ constant and tell the guy with the broken arm to wait anyway? Of course not. She should change her definition based on this new context.”

In other cases, however, prevalence-induced concept change can be a problem.

“Nobody thinks a radiologist should change his definition of what constitutes a tumor and continue to find them even when they’re gone,” Gilbert said. “That’s a case in which you really must be able to know when your work is done. You should be able to see that the prevalence of tumors has gone to zero and call it a day. Our studies simply suggest that this isn’t an easy thing to do.”

Aside from the obvious questions the research raises about problem-solving, it also suggests challenges with how we discuss, debate, and address societal ills.

“Expanding one’s definition of a problem may be seen by some as evidence of political correctness run amok,” Gilbert said. “They will argue that reducing the prevalence of discrimination, for example, will simply cause us to start calling more behaviors discriminatory. Others will see the expansion of concepts as an increase in social sensitivity, as we become aware of problems that we previously failed to recognize.

“Our studies take no position on this,” he added. “There are clearly times in life when our definitions should be held constant, and there are clearly times when they should be expanded. Our experiments simply show that when we are in the former circumstance, we often act as though we are in the latter.”

This research was supported with funding from the National Science Foundation.



In an increasing interest into what many sociologists are now calling "progressophobia"—the tendency to ignore or deny the progress society has made in regard to social issues—a new study has shown that in both big and small issues, people tend to expand their definition of a certain problem when they find that that problem is becoming increasingly difficult to actually find, thus making change seem like a lost cause and causing people to seemingly overreact over minor problems.

While I'm glad this research exists, I worry about its misuse. Finding a balance between acknowledging that legitimate problems that need addressing exist while also acknowledging that progress has been made so that we don't invent pseudo-issues out of nowhere has never been an easy one. These days, it seems so easy to slip and swing to one extreme, either ignoring all the problems around you or biting and screaming at any random boy crying wolf. Try to find that balance and you're accused by either of being too (in)sensitive.

How does NSG react to this information and approach this problem?

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Postby Galloism » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:51 am

This doesn't surprise me at all, honestly.
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Postby Ulenya Yootger » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:55 am

Thank you for this post. It eloquently describes a human condition I had long suspected but never had seen actually expressed.

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Postby Cannot think of a name » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:01 am

I don't see this being used to dismiss people's concerns categorically at all...
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Postby Tierra Prime » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:02 am

This doesn't surprise me.

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Postby Iridencia » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:04 am

Cannot think of a name wrote:I don't see this being used to dismiss people's concerns categorically at all...


That's kind of my worry. I don't think these findings should be dismissed or demonized since overemphasizing a problem can be just as dangerous as ignoring it, but I can also see it being used to dismiss people with real concerns as "imagining things."

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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:04 am

This actually makes too much sense.
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Postby Firaxin » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:07 am

Iridencia wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:I don't see this being used to dismiss people's concerns categorically at all...


That's kind of my worry. I don't think these findings should be dismissed or demonized since overemphasizing a problem can be just as dangerous as ignoring it, but I can also see it being used to dismiss people with real concerns as "imagining things."

The solution is having the definition of a signal written and uneditable, so we can reliably see if the signal is actually there or not.

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Postby Skarten » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:09 am

Why do i feel like this could eventually devolve into a "X Group thinks Y is a problem, when it's clearly not."

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Postby The Serbian Empire » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:11 am

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Iridencia
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Postby Iridencia » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:12 am

Firaxin wrote:
Iridencia wrote:
That's kind of my worry. I don't think these findings should be dismissed or demonized since overemphasizing a problem can be just as dangerous as ignoring it, but I can also see it being used to dismiss people with real concerns as "imagining things."

The solution is having the definition of a signal written and uneditable, so we can reliably see if the signal is actually there or not.


That would seem to be it, but that could also carry the danger of stifling innovative thinking. Just because you didn't consider something a problem before doesn't necessarily mean it's not actually a problem. If, for example, we decide a signal should be "treat all humans fairly and kindly," what happens we discover sentient extraterrestrials? I know that sounds silly, but it's just illustrating a point. At that point, we may need to expand our signal to include broader definitions of who deserves fairness and kindness. The article itself says:

"Prevalence-induced concept change sometimes makes perfect sense, Gilbert noted, as in the case of an emergency room doctor trying to triage patients.

“If the ER is full of gunshot victims and someone comes in with a broken arm, the doctor will tell that person to wait,” he said. “But imagine one Sunday where there are no gunshot victims. Should that doctor hold her definition of ‘needing immediate attention’ constant and tell the guy with the broken arm to wait anyway? Of course not. She should change her definition based on this new context.”"


So how do we know when it's appropriate and when it's not?

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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:12 am

Skarten wrote:Why do i feel like this could eventually devolve into a "X Group thinks Y is a problem, when it's clearly not."


This has always happened tbh.

Both sides do it anyways every day by calling each other names.
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:15 am

Iridencia wrote:
Firaxin wrote:The solution is having the definition of a signal written and uneditable, so we can reliably see if the signal is actually there or not.


That would seem to be it, but that could also carry the danger of stifling innovative thinking. Just because you didn't consider something a problem before doesn't necessarily mean it's not actually a problem. If, for example, we decide a signal should be "treat all humans fairly and kindly," what happens we discover sentient extraterrestrials? I know that sounds silly, but it's just illustrating a point. At that point, we may need to expand our signal to include broader definitions of who deserves fairness and kindness. The article itself says:

"Prevalence-induced concept change sometimes makes perfect sense, Gilbert noted, as in the case of an emergency room doctor trying to triage patients.

“If the ER is full of gunshot victims and someone comes in with a broken arm, the doctor will tell that person to wait,” he said. “But imagine one Sunday where there are no gunshot victims. Should that doctor hold her definition of ‘needing immediate attention’ constant and tell the guy with the broken arm to wait anyway? Of course not. She should change her definition based on this new context.”"


So how do we know when it's appropriate and when it's not?


You gotta cross that river when you get to it, and not before.

"Treat all humans fairly and kindly" is a good thing to live by, until an extraterrestrial species that shares our values and wants to befriend us comes along, then, and only then, should we start thinking about the metric we have already established as right. Your signal is also too vague. What is kind? What is fair? You have to define these things before you even begin to accomplish that goal, otherwise you will end up chasing neverending goals and manufacturing them even when there might be no issue at all.

Before then it is nothing but castles in the sky, and it doesn't do much other than create a problem to be solved in your mind.
Last edited by Soldati Senza Confini on Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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Postby Aclion » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:16 am

I'm shocked. SHOCKED

Well not that shocked.
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Postby USS Monitor » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:18 am

This is definitely something I've noticed with social issues, and it's good that someone looked into it from a scientific point of view.

As well as the obvious hyper-sensitivity about race issues, and the people that treat the most minor economic hardships as a humanitarian crisis, this is probably also why we have a problem with people being overmedicated and getting addicted to prescription pills. As fewer people have serious health problems that actually require treatment, they're more likely to demand treatment for minor aches and pains that would be better left alone.
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Postby Iridencia » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:18 am

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Iridencia wrote:
That would seem to be it, but that could also carry the danger of stifling innovative thinking. Just because you didn't consider something a problem before doesn't necessarily mean it's not actually a problem. If, for example, we decide a signal should be "treat all humans fairly and kindly," what happens we discover sentient extraterrestrials? I know that sounds silly, but it's just illustrating a point. At that point, we may need to expand our signal to include broader definitions of who deserves fairness and kindness. The article itself says:

"Prevalence-induced concept change sometimes makes perfect sense, Gilbert noted, as in the case of an emergency room doctor trying to triage patients.

“If the ER is full of gunshot victims and someone comes in with a broken arm, the doctor will tell that person to wait,” he said. “But imagine one Sunday where there are no gunshot victims. Should that doctor hold her definition of ‘needing immediate attention’ constant and tell the guy with the broken arm to wait anyway? Of course not. She should change her definition based on this new context.”"


So how do we know when it's appropriate and when it's not?


You gotta cross that river when you get to it, and not before.

"Treat all humans fairly and kindly" is a good thing to live by, until an extraterrestrial species that shares our values and wants to befriend us comes along, then, and only then, should we start thinking about the metric we have already established as right.

Before then it is nothing but castles in the sky, and it doesn't do much other than create a problem to be solved in your mind.


Telling the difference between when a river to cross has appeared versus when we're imagining a river is kind of the problem when it comes to real life situations. To go to the examples we're all thinking of, the redefining of racism and sexism to depend on having "societal power"—I don't believe in that, but from the perspective of people who do, this redefining comes as a result of us having a better understanding of how oppression works. What's the best way to tell who's actually got a point versus who's just starting shit where it needn't be started?

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Postby Cannot think of a name » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:19 am

Skarten wrote:Why do i feel like this could eventually devolve into a "X Group thinks Y is a problem, when it's clearly not."

Because you've been on the internet longer than five minutes.
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Postby MERIZoC » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:21 am

By several measures, including rates of poverty and violence, progress is an international reality. Why, then, do so many of us believe otherwise?


Do these people, the Steven Pinkers and Vox.com writers of the world, ever get tired of being so stupid?

“Nobody thinks a radiologist should change his definition of what constitutes a tumor and continue to find them even when they’re gone,” Gilbert said. “That’s a case in which you really must be able to know when your work is done. You should be able to see that the prevalence of tumors has gone to zero and call it a day. Our studies simply suggest that this isn’t an easy thing to do.”
Aside from the obvious questions the research raises about problem-solving, it also suggests challenges with how we discuss, debate, and address societal ills.

This is why scientists are unfit to comment on politics and society. They say they take no position but there is an implicit argument of "everything is going fine, dont worry about anything, society will just naturally get better over time". For one, this is ahistorical, for another, this line of reasoning always fails to look at different regions or countries independent of each other. Lastly it promotes a view of "progress" as being something almost divine, just an inevitability of the universe, rather than something 100% to do with human action and agency. God, I hate these people.

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Postby USS Monitor » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:21 am

Firaxin wrote:
Iridencia wrote:
That's kind of my worry. I don't think these findings should be dismissed or demonized since overemphasizing a problem can be just as dangerous as ignoring it, but I can also see it being used to dismiss people with real concerns as "imagining things."

The solution is having the definition of a signal written and uneditable, so we can reliably see if the signal is actually there or not.


Even if you write something down and don't change the text, people can still change their interpretation of it over time. You can't stop social norms from evolving over time.
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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:22 am

Iridencia wrote:
Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
You gotta cross that river when you get to it, and not before.

"Treat all humans fairly and kindly" is a good thing to live by, until an extraterrestrial species that shares our values and wants to befriend us comes along, then, and only then, should we start thinking about the metric we have already established as right.

Before then it is nothing but castles in the sky, and it doesn't do much other than create a problem to be solved in your mind.


Telling the difference between when a river to cross has appeared versus when we're imagining a river is kind of the problem when it comes to real life situations. To go to the examples we're all thinking of, the redefining of racism and sexism to depend on having "societal power"—I don't believe in that, but from the perspective of people who do, this redefining comes as a result of us having a better understanding of how oppression works. What's the best way to tell who's actually got a point versus who's just starting shit where it needn't be started?


Well, the problem there is that power can be defined in many ways.

Let's take the concept of "patriarchy" for instance, there is no common definition we can all agree to, and this is a problem. If there is no well-defined patriarchy, then how do you even begin to fight it? At one point your definition will encompass "all male behavior" and that is a comical definition of patriarchy, but it is the problem with not having a well-defined problem with a metric to achieve.
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Postby The East Marches II » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:23 am

Cannot think of a name wrote:I don't see this being used to dismiss people's concerns categorically at all...


That's exactly why it's great.

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Postby Firaxin » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:27 am

USS Monitor wrote:
Firaxin wrote:The solution is having the definition of a signal written and uneditable, so we can reliably see if the signal is actually there or not.


Even if you write something down and don't change the text, people can still change their interpretation of it over time. You can't stop social norms from evolving over time.

Logic would dictate they aren't correct, and they would logically be ignored.

"How are you?" Is still seen the same as when it was used centuries ago. How could (possible signal) "All humans have Civil Rights" be interpreted differently?

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Postby Iridencia » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:27 am

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:
Iridencia wrote:
Telling the difference between when a river to cross has appeared versus when we're imagining a river is kind of the problem when it comes to real life situations. To go to the examples we're all thinking of, the redefining of racism and sexism to depend on having "societal power"—I don't believe in that, but from the perspective of people who do, this redefining comes as a result of us having a better understanding of how oppression works. What's the best way to tell who's actually got a point versus who's just starting shit where it needn't be started?


Well, the problem there is that power can be defined in many ways.

Let's take the concept of "patriarchy" for instance, there is no common definition we can all agree to, and this is a problem. If there is no well-defined patriarchy, then how do you even begin to fight it? At one point your definition will encompass "all male behavior" and that is a comical definition of patriarchy, but it is the problem with not having a well-defined problem with a metric to achieve.


That's definitely part of the issue sure. For me personally, I try my best to reduce an ideal to its basics as much as I can, to see what my goals actually are and whether or not what I'm doing is in service of those goals. "Treat women equally" for example can essentially be boiled down to "Humans are thinking, experiencing creatures who are harmed by prejudice"—realizing this basic principle thus cancels out the justification that treating men like crap is okay because it's payback for women's oppression. I don't think it's a perfect method, but it's serviceable for me so far.

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Postby Soldati Senza Confini » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:31 am

Firaxin wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Even if you write something down and don't change the text, people can still change their interpretation of it over time. You can't stop social norms from evolving over time.

Logic would dictate they aren't correct, and they would logically be ignored.

"How are you?" Is still seen the same as when it was used centuries ago. How could (possible signal) "All humans have Civil Rights" be interpreted differently?


The definiton of civil rights can change, for instance.

What is a civil right?
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Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.

"When it’s a choice of putting food on the table, or thinking about your morals, it’s easier to say you’d think about your morals, but only if you’ve never faced that decision." - Anastasia Richardson

Current Goal: Flesh out nation factbook.

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The Blaatschapen
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Posts: 63227
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:32 am

This is quite the social issue. We'd better do something about it.
The Blaatschapen should resign

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