The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Tarsonis]

Drug addicts suffer. Gay people do not, except when homophobes cause them to do so.

Idk man, I think God just created people to be tortured to make good memes. How else can you explain gay people existing and yet God punishing them for something they can’t control except by vehement self-denial that creates psychological damage (oh wait, maybe God doesn’t exist and long-term psychological damage is the point of the virus that is religion)?

Firstly, you and I both know sexual attraction and identity are far more complicated than “being made this way”
Secondly We get it, you don’t like religion. For the umpteenth time this isn’t the thread for that.

[Crinche]

Vatican launches e-rosary: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50081466

How do fellow kids do you wish to praise the lord electronically?

That is so cool.

haha love that

[Bienenhalde]

An other example about the misuse of "love" could be:

A drug addict "loves" their drugs, but it's not an act of love to let them continue to ruin their body and mind, and overall their life, or to even encourage them in it.


Going back to homosexual acts, if it's understood to be a sin, it's because it's understood to bring ruin and misery.

And this is a bad analogy, because drugs are an inanimate material possession. Attachment to possessions is not really comparable to the love found in human relationships. Of course, it is true that sometimes people may be inclined to use others as mere sex objects rather than caring about each other about human beings, but that is a problem in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships.

[Lost Memories]

Drug addicts suffer. Gay people do not, except when homophobes cause them to do so.

With only corporeal suffering and/or corporeal pleasure as metrics, you could define hedonism, but not morality.

An other example about the misuse of "love" could be:

A drug addict "loves" their drugs, but it's not an act of love to let them continue to ruin their body and mind, and overall their life, or to even encourage them in it.


Going back to homosexual acts, if it's understood to be a sin, it's because it's understood to bring ruin and misery.

And this is a bad analogy, because drugs are an inanimate material possession. Attachment to possessions is not really comparable to the love found in human relationships. Of course, it is true that sometimes people may be inclined to use others as mere sex objects rather than caring about each other about human beings, but that is a problem in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships.

It wasn't an analogy.

The talk before the post you quoted, did steer for a second over the definition of love, in a christian sense, not romantic love.
Mine was an example of how someone "loving" something isn't always for their own good, and indulging them only because they say to "love" what they are addicted to, isn't a showing of christian compassion. As the aim isn't to just please others, but to help them out of trouble, or to avoid falling into trouble.

A morality based on personal likes, has no coherence over multiple people, as it's normal for people to be different and to like different things, since it has no coherence it has no value as moral standard, making it a non morality.
What is the standard of christian morality? To live a full, worthy and dignified life, by following the directions god gave, but all that can't be changed on personal whims, which is a good thing as moral standards go.

The reason for why this homo thing has been dragging on for years and decades(or centuries?) in the western world, without getting resolved for good, it's because explaining what makes it a source of living ruin, to people with little to no sense of spirituality, isn't as simple as with other things.
There have been some definitions given in the previous pages about why it's seen as a sin in christianity, if you're interested to talk about the reasons.

[Lower Nubia]

As I said, hell is not punitive, it’s forfeiture. Heaven is freely accessible to you, you have but to grasp it.



Quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ve heard but you do you boo boo

You may as well ask me to grip hot coals. The belief system is repugnant to me, and I would be miserable adhering to it in life.

If I may interject. It would not be repugnant to adhere to in the next life.

[Philjia]

Drug addicts suffer. Gay people do not, except when homophobes cause them to do so.

With only corporeal suffering and/or corporeal pleasure as metrics, you could define hedonism, but not morality.

Nonsense. With happiness defined as the only good, it is elementary to conclude that maximising pleasure and minimising pain is good. The challenge is, of course, deciding how pain and pleasure should be valued and distributed, but the essential moral principle is simplicity itself. (And never mind that positive earthly actions having negative metaphysical consequences is solely a result of God being an awful cosmic horror who gets pissy whenever we don't conform.)

[Northern Davincia]

With only corporeal suffering and/or corporeal pleasure as metrics, you could define hedonism, but not morality.

Nonsense. With happiness defined as the only good, it is elementary to conclude that maximising pleasure and minimising pain is good. The challenge is, of course, deciding how pain and pleasure should be valued and distributed, but the essential moral principle is simplicity itself. (And never mind that positive earthly actions having negative metaphysical consequences is solely a result of God being an awful cosmic horror who gets pissy whenever we don't conform.)

Simply because you deem it to be a positive earthly action does not make it so, especially when we mortals lack omniscience.

[Salus Maior]

You may as well ask me to grip hot coals. The belief system is repugnant to me, and I would be miserable adhering to it in life.

What about it is repugnant to you?

[Salus Maior]

With only corporeal suffering and/or corporeal pleasure as metrics, you could define hedonism, but not morality.

Nonsense. With happiness defined as the only good, it is elementary to conclude that maximising pleasure and minimising pain is good. The challenge is, of course, deciding how pain and pleasure should be valued and distributed, but the essential moral principle is simplicity itself. (And never mind that positive earthly actions having negative metaphysical consequences is solely a result of God being an awful cosmic horror who gets pissy whenever we don't conform.)

Only if you're a utilitarian. And that can justify a lot of terrible stuff.

[Philjia]

Nonsense. With happiness defined as the only good, it is elementary to conclude that maximising pleasure and minimising pain is good. The challenge is, of course, deciding how pain and pleasure should be valued and distributed, but the essential moral principle is simplicity itself. (And never mind that positive earthly actions having negative metaphysical consequences is solely a result of God being an awful cosmic horror who gets pissy whenever we don't conform.)

Simply because you deem it to be a positive earthly action does not make it so, especially when we mortals lack omniscience.

Humans can only endeavour to do their best. In this respect, we are superior to God, who can't or won't. The last and greatest failure of God was granting to his weak little creations a power he himself does not possess.

[Philjia]

Nonsense. With happiness defined as the only good, it is elementary to conclude that maximising pleasure and minimising pain is good. The challenge is, of course, deciding how pain and pleasure should be valued and distributed, but the essential moral principle is simplicity itself. (And never mind that positive earthly actions having negative metaphysical consequences is solely a result of God being an awful cosmic horror who gets pissy whenever we don't conform.)

Only if you're a utilitarian. And that can justify a lot of terrible stuff.

So can religious and deontological ethics, as interpretation of all moral principles is subjective and none have simple ways to translate the principle into action. Utilitarianism, for example, asks for pleasure to be maximised and pain to be minimised, but can't define which is more important, or whether individual happiness or suffering outweighs group happiness or suffering or how the idea should be applied to politics or the legal system.

[Salus Maior]

Humans can only endeavour to do their best. In this respect, we are superior to God, who can't or won't. The last and greatest failure of God was granting to his weak little creations a power he himself does not possess.

Please stop, my eyes can only roll so far.

What exactly are you suggesting people have that God doesn't?

[Northern Davincia]

Simply because you deem it to be a positive earthly action does not make it so, especially when we mortals lack omniscience.

Humans can only endeavour to do their best. In this respect, we are superior to God, who can't or won't. The last and greatest failure of God was granting to his weak little creations a power he himself does not possess.

And that power is...?
Humans often do not endeavor to do their best, which is why virtue is so prized among civilizations. It's also why humanity is in the sorry state it currently is, because humanity actively chose not do its best.
God has always done His best in upholding us in a fallen world, one built on pride such as your own. He has given us the prophets, the Law, and Christ. We would need nothing else if we were not disobedient.

[Philjia]

Humans can only endeavour to do their best. In this respect, we are superior to God, who can't or won't. The last and greatest failure of God was granting to his weak little creations a power he himself does not possess.

Please stop, my eyes can only roll so far.

What exactly are you suggesting people have that God doesn't?

We can, and do, try to make things better. God, for whatever reason, can't, or doesn't, possibly because he's impotent, possibly because he's a bastard. We have the capacity to expend effort to improve the world around us. We've repeatedly failed, but you can't fault our conviction. Bar the alleged incident 2000 years ago when the Lord sent his only son to be nailed to a bit of wood to make us a bit less inherently sinful (a course of action that's been about as helpful as sticking a bit of masking tape on a thousand foot crack in the Hoover Dam), God's really not helped us out much. God could have made a utopia from the outset, he could have made our failing world into a utopia, he looked at what he'd done and he apparently thought it either pretty good or not worth fixing. God is either watching you and laughing, or not watching at all.

[Philjia]

I'm sorry I got angry, every time I remind myself about the Epicurean paradox I tend to become quite upset. I'll forget about it later and become religiously tolerant again.

[Salus Maior]

Please stop, my eyes can only roll so far.

What exactly are you suggesting people have that God doesn't?

We can, and do, try to make things better. God, for whatever reason, can't, or doesn't, possibly because he's impotent, possibly because he's a bastard. We have the capacity to expend effort to improve the world around us. We've repeatedly failed, but you can't fault our conviction. Bar the alleged incident 2000 years ago when the Lord sent his only son to be nailed to a bit of wood to make us a bit less inherently sinful (a course of action that's been about as helpful as sticking a bit of masking tape on a thousand foot crack in the Hoover Dam), God's really not helped us out much. God could have made a utopia from the outset, he could have made our failing world into a utopia, he looked at what he'd done and he apparently thought it either pretty good or not worth fixing. God is either watching you and laughing, or not watching at all.

How very bitter.

God works through all things, to the ultimate good. Our world is fallen because we've made it so. You say that humanity is doing its best, but I don't think that's evident at all. Some people are doing their best to the ultimate good, but the people that do that are in the smallest minority. Our world is ruled by the self-serving and the power-hungry, and that's evident by the fact of the wars we've gone through, the suffering of starving children, and the fact that we've pushed the pursuit of profit and "progress" to the point of our planet is going critical, and that it's probably not going to get better before we go through a major humanitarian crisis that we've not seen the like of before.

Honestly, it's laughable that you'd think that humanity is the "good" party here. But, of course God's will ultimately prevails over humanity's evil. What man meant for evil, God turned to good. Like the innocent man who was "nailed to a bit of wood" that you just mocked. Mankind rejected and killed Him, but God stamped down death and sin and so opened up the way for us to do the same.

[Kowani]

We can, and do, try to make things better. God, for whatever reason, can't, or doesn't, possibly because he's impotent, possibly because he's a bastard. We have the capacity to expend effort to improve the world around us. We've repeatedly failed, but you can't fault our conviction. Bar the alleged incident 2000 years ago when the Lord sent his only son to be nailed to a bit of wood to make us a bit less inherently sinful (a course of action that's been about as helpful as sticking a bit of masking tape on a thousand foot crack in the Hoover Dam), God's really not helped us out much. God could have made a utopia from the outset, he could have made our failing world into a utopia, he looked at what he'd done and he apparently thought it either pretty good or not worth fixing. God is either watching you and laughing, or not watching at all.

How very bitter.

God works through all things, to the ultimate good. Our world is fallen because we've made it so. You say that humanity is doing its best, but I don't think that's evident at all. Some people are doing their best to the ultimate good, but the people that do that are in the smallest minority. Our world is ruled by the self-serving and the power-hungry, and that's evident by the fact of the wars we've gone through, the suffering of starving children, and the fact that we've pushed the pursuit of profit and "progress" to the point of our planet is going critical, and that it's probably not going to get better before we go through a major humanitarian crisis that we've not seen the like of before.

Honestly, it's laughable that you'd think that humanity is the "good" party here. But, of course God's will ultimately prevails over humanity's evil. What man meant for evil, God turned to good. Like the innocent man who was "nailed to a bit of wood" that you just mocked. Mankind rejected and killed Him, but God stamped down death and sin and so opened up the way for us to do the same.

That moment when child malnutrition is at the lowest level in history, as are wars, but you still have to push a narrative anyway.

[Salus Maior]

That moment when child malnutrition is at the lowest level in history, as are wars, but you still have to push a narrative anyway.

Kowani, you're such a joke.

Why don't you tell that to the Kurdish kids with the white phosphorus burns, that they live in a world where humanity isn't bent towards evil.

[Northern Davincia]

Please stop, my eyes can only roll so far.

What exactly are you suggesting people have that God doesn't?

We can, and do, try to make things better. God, for whatever reason, can't, or doesn't, possibly because he's impotent, possibly because he's a bastard. We have the capacity to expend effort to improve the world around us. We've repeatedly failed, but you can't fault our conviction. Bar the alleged incident 2000 years ago when the Lord sent his only son to be nailed to a bit of wood to make us a bit less inherently sinful (a course of action that's been about as helpful as sticking a bit of masking tape on a thousand foot crack in the Hoover Dam), God's really not helped us out much. God could have made a utopia from the outset, he could have made our failing world into a utopia, he looked at what he'd done and he apparently thought it either pretty good or not worth fixing. God is either watching you and laughing, or not watching at all.

Trying to make improvements without God's help is what brings disaster. We can accept that help at any time, and we will improve ourselves in doing so. He continues to inspire saints and bestows miracles to unite the faithful.
Keep in mind, very few humans act selflessly. Our efforts to improve the world are usually motivated by greed, power, or some other influence.

[Kowani]

That moment when child malnutrition is at the lowest level in history, as are wars, but you still have to push a narrative anyway.

Kowani, you're such a joke.

Why don't you tell that to the Kurdish kids with the white phosphorus burns, that they live in a world where humanity isn't bent towards evil.

A thing of note. It does nothing for those who are suffering from violence, or poverty, or illness, that less people are suffering from those things than ever before. Yet it does a great deal for those who are not. The case of the Kurds, tragic as it is-remains the exception, not the rule. That we have almost entirely eradicated inter-state violence, the one with the greatest amount of suffering and death, is something to celebrate. And for all the internal conflicts, terrorism and revolutions we see, it is still better to be born now than any preceding era in history, because you are less likely to deal with those things.

[Salus Maior]

Kowani, you're such a joke.

Why don't you tell that to the Kurdish kids with the white phosphorus burns, that they live in a world where humanity isn't bent towards evil.

A thing of note. It does nothing for those who are suffering from violence, or poverty, or illness, that less people are suffering from those things than ever before. Yet it does a great deal for those who are not. The case of the Kurds, tragic as it is-remains the exception, not the rule. That we have almost entirely eradicated inter-state violence, the one with the greatest amount of suffering and death, is something to celebrate. And for all the internal conflicts, terrorism and revolutions we see, it is still better to be born now than any preceding era in history, because you are less likely to deal with those things.

Only because nukes and the fact that we've developed warfare to the point where it would be too destructive to wage wantonly. That's why people aren't going to war in a conventional sense.

[Hanafuridake]

You may as well ask me to grip hot coals. The belief system is repugnant to me, and I would be miserable adhering to it in life.

What about it is repugnant to you?

To me, it's pretty absurd and self-centered to believe that this vast universe was created just because a being desired to create a cosmically microscopic race of sapient beings and have a relationship with the only ones who made the arbitrary decision to believe in him without any evidence at all. I'm not sure if that makes it repugnant to me, but it is a rather bizarre worldview when I think about it.

That's not getting into the Old Testament.

That moment when child malnutrition is at the lowest level in history, as are wars, but you still have to push a narrative anyway.

Kowani, you're such a joke.

Why don't you tell that to the Kurdish kids with the white phosphorus burns, that they live in a world where humanity isn't bent towards evil.

The fact that war and suffering exists in the world is not enough to generalize an entire species as leaning toward evil. You can find just as many examples of altruism as you can atrocities.

[Kowani]

A thing of note. It does nothing for those who are suffering from violence, or poverty, or illness, that less people are suffering from those things than ever before. Yet it does a great deal for those who are not. The case of the Kurds, tragic as it is-remains the exception, not the rule. That we have almost entirely eradicated inter-state violence, the one with the greatest amount of suffering and death, is something to celebrate. And for all the internal conflicts, terrorism and revolutions we see, it is still better to be born now than any preceding era in history, because you are less likely to deal with those things.

Only because nukes and the fact that we've developed warfare to the point where it would be too destructive to wage wantonly. That's why people aren't going to war in a conventional sense.

So, not only are you shifting the goalposts, you conceded my point about violence, you also dropped both of my contentions for poverty and illness. Beyond that, your argument falls apart when you start looking at non-nuclear states outside the traditional nuclear umbrella, because even there, warfare is less common than it was in the past. Europe tore itself to the brink in its religious wars, and they just kept going-until people got tired of death. The psychology of humanity has changed, much like postwar Europe-it’s something countries don’t like to do. And part of that, in the poorer countries, is because it’s easier to live than to fight.

[New haven america]

How very bitter.

God works through all things, to the ultimate good. Our world is fallen because we've made it so. You say that humanity is doing its best, but I don't think that's evident at all. Some people are doing their best to the ultimate good, but the people that do that are in the smallest minority. Our world is ruled by the self-serving and the power-hungry, and that's evident by the fact of the wars we've gone through, the suffering of starving children, and the fact that we've pushed the pursuit of profit and "progress" to the point of our planet is going critical, and that it's probably not going to get better before we go through a major humanitarian crisis that we've not seen the like of before.

Honestly, it's laughable that you'd think that humanity is the "good" party here. But, of course God's will ultimately prevails over humanity's evil. What man meant for evil, God turned to good. Like the innocent man who was "nailed to a bit of wood" that you just mocked. Mankind rejected and killed Him, but God stamped down death and sin and so opened up the way for us to do the same.

That moment when child malnutrition is at the lowest level in history, as are wars, but you still have to push a narrative anyway.

Also, God is the creator of all and knows all, so he's the cause of malnutrition, wars, poverty, etc...

[Northern Davincia]

That moment when child malnutrition is at the lowest level in history, as are wars, but you still have to push a narrative anyway.

Also, God is the creator of all and knows all, so he's the cause of malnutrition, wars, poverty, etc...

Nah, that's on us. If we commit a crime by our own volition, our parents aren't inherently at fault.