NationStates

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:19 am**

Hakons wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
If the Church slips into heresy, tradition alone wont be enough

If the Church slips into heresy, then you stay in the Church and help her return to the right path. Jumping ship from the Ark of Salvation is never a good move. If a bad synod is enough for you to leave the Church entirely, what would that say about your commitment to the sacramental Church to which you belong to right now? As soon as you personally disagree with something, you want to leave?

I think the big no, no, in the assumption of Catholicism being the ark is if this heresy is agreed by the Pope. Segments of the Church can fall away in terms of doctrine (as we know from history), but the Pope does not have that luxury in Catholicism. If the Pope ratifies it, Catholicism as the ark comes under question, ergo Catholicism not necessarily being the Church becomes a possible reality, ergo, it should be left for the real church.

Seeing as I’m late to the party that’s just my 2 cents.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:26 am**

I'm not seeing anything in the Amazonian Synod document that promotes pantheism, but rather something closer to panentheism.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:26 am**

What's so bad about the Amazon Synod?

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:32 am**

“The universe unfolds in God, who fills it completely. Hence, there is a mystical meaning to be found in a leaf, in a mountain trail, in a dewdrop, in a poor person’s face” (LS 233). Whoever knows how to contemplate “the goodness present in the realities and experiences of this world” discovers the intimate connection of all things and experiences with God (LS 234). For this reason, the Christian community, especially in the Amazon region, is invited to see reality with a contemplative gaze, through which it can grasp the presence and action of God in all creation and in all history.

This is not a pantheist tract.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:12 am**

I'm disappointed that no one has volunteered to become antipope should this Amazonian heresy prevail.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:24 am**

Northern Davincia wrote:I'm disappointed that no one has volunteered to become antipope should this Amazonian heresy prevail.

Now you’re thinking with portals

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:35 am**

Napkizemlja wrote:
“The universe unfolds in God, who fills it completely. Hence, there is a mystical meaning to be found in a leaf, in a mountain trail, in a dewdrop, in a poor person’s face” (LS 233). Whoever knows how to contemplate “the goodness present in the realities and experiences of this world” discovers the intimate connection of all things and experiences with God (LS 234). For this reason, the Christian community, especially in the Amazon region, is invited to see reality with a contemplative gaze, through which it can grasp the presence and action of God in all creation and in all history.

This is not a pantheist tract.

From what I read, people are using the word “pantheist” very loosely. To the point where the word loses all meaning.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:42 am**

Northern Davincia wrote:I'm disappointed that no one has volunteered to become antipope should this Amazonian heresy prevail.

Bah Gawd! That’s Natalius’ music!

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:54 am**

Hanafuridake wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:

This is not a pantheist tract.

From what I read, people are using the word “pantheist” very loosely. To the point where the word loses all meaning.

Yes. It reads much closer to panentheism, which has a long history in Christianity in terms of theological discussion.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:10 pm**

Napkizemlja wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
From what I read, people are using the word “pantheist” very loosely. To the point where the word loses all meaning.

Yes. It reads much closer to panentheism, which has a long history in Christianity in terms of theological discussion.

I’m more concerned with the “pagan religions are valid sources of Devine revelation and salvation.” Issue

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:29 pm**

Tarsonis wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Yes. It reads much closer to panentheism, which has a long history in Christianity in terms of theological discussion.

I’m more concerned with the “pagan religions are valid sources of Devine revelation and salvation.” Issue

Deliberately playing advocatus diaboli here...

Do you count Hinduism as a pagan religion?

Would you deny any form of divine revelation to Hindus that might form a useful point of mutually respectful discussion without conceding the truth of Christianity?

https://www.iocs.cam.ac.uk/wp-content/u ... e-Info.pdf
https://www.antiochian-orthodox.co.uk/2 ... -hinduism/

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:36 pm**

Tarsonis wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Yes. It reads much closer to panentheism, which has a long history in Christianity in terms of theological discussion.

I’m more concerned with the “pagan religions are valid sources of Devine revelation and salvation.” Issue

Where’s it say that?

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:36 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:I'm disappointed that no one has volunteered to become antipope should this Amazonian heresy prevail.

I remember reading somewhere that there's been antipopes in Spain (and probably elsewhere) for like ~~fourty~~ thirty years.

Edit: Linky

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:40 pm**

Tarsonis wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Yes. It reads much closer to panentheism, which has a long history in Christianity in terms of theological discussion.

I’m more concerned with the “pagan religions are valid sources of Devine revelation and salvation.” Issue

Where exactly does it say that?

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:40 pm**

Tarsonis wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Yes. It reads much closer to panentheism, which has a long history in Christianity in terms of theological discussion.

I’m more concerned with the “pagan religions are valid sources of Devine revelation and salvation.” Issue

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that in the Preparatory Document.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:42 pm**

A practical spirituality, with its feet on the ground, offers the possibility of finding joy and zest in living together with the Amazonian peoples, and thus of being able to value their cultural riches, in which God sowed the seed of the Good News. We must also be able to perceive the elements present in their cultures which, because they pertain to human history, require purification.

This is the closest I could get. Unless we are also going to consider the call to learn from Amazonian peoples (especially as it pertains to living with nature) tantamount to calling paganism a valid source for salvation.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:53 pm**

Napkizemlja wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
I’m more concerned with the “pagan religions are valid sources of Devine revelation and salvation.” Issue

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that in the Preparatory Document.

My knowledge of Christian history isn't all that thorough, but haven't a lot of Christians (including Catholics) considered pre-Christian pagan beliefs as proto-Christian or natural law which is fulfilled through Christ?

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:55 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:I'm disappointed that no one has volunteered to become antipope should this Amazonian heresy prevail.

This is a shameful statement. Absolutely shameful. I don't care if this is intended as a joke or not, we need to come together and pray for the wisdom of our leaders. We should have more faith that our Church will be fine and will prevail. This is a WORKING DOCUMENT. It's not FINAL. If this is all it takes, a ROUGH DRAFT, for people to be calling for an antipope, then God Himself weeps for the lack of faith in this thread.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:56 pm**

Hanafuridake wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that in the Preparatory Document.

My knowledge of Christian history isn't all that thorough, but haven't a lot of Christians (including Catholics) considered pre-Christian pagan beliefs as proto-Christian or natural law which is fulfilled through Christ?

Only in cases when it was in harmony with Christian morals and to some extent theology. But yes, there was the idea of the virtuous pagan and Saint John Martyr considered any logos inspired person predating Christianity to be some form of proto-Christian or unknowing Christian.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:56 pm**

Hanafuridake wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that in the Preparatory Document.

My knowledge of Christian history isn't all that thorough, but haven't a lot of Christians (including Catholics) considered pre-Christian pagan beliefs as proto-Christian or natural law which is fulfilled through Christ?

Pretty much. All things find their fulfillment in Christ. He fulfills all of our needs and contains the fullness of truth, which even Aquinas says is available in small sparks in other faiths.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:58 pm**

Minachia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I'm disappointed that no one has volunteered to become antipope should this Amazonian heresy prevail.

I remember reading somewhere that there's been antipopes in Spain (and probably elsewhere) for like ~~fourty~~ thirty years.

Edit: Linky

The same Church that canonized...Hitler.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:02 pm**

Luminesa wrote:
Minachia wrote:I remember reading somewhere that there's been antipopes in Spain (and probably elsewhere) for like ~~fourty~~ thirty years.

Edit: Linky

The same Church that canonized...Hitler.

Franco, not Hitler.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:04 pm**

Napkizemlja wrote:
Luminesa wrote:The same Church that canonized...Hitler.

Franco, not Hitler.

Close enough! Ish.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:07 pm**

Luminesa wrote:
Napkizemlja wrote:Franco, not Hitler.

Close enough! Ish.

Given what the churches suffered under the Reds, it's hard to blame them for liking Franco.

Posted: **Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:08 pm**

Napkizemlja wrote:
Luminesa wrote:The same Church that canonized...Hitler.

Franco, not Hitler.

Is that any better?

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