NationStates

Posted: **Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:46 pm**

Luminesa wrote:But what laws do you think a secular state should hold in regards to religion? Honest question.

I agree with the usual ones, such as religious freedom, no state religions, no public funds being used for a religion, no religious control of the legal system, allowing political leadership to come to power regardless of religious beliefs, freeing up the education system, no penalties against citizens who change religion or abstain from religion, etc.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:06 am**

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-09/ ... t/11173526

This makes me mad to be quite honest. Catholics who feel that the Church hasn't caught up to their progressive ideals. If their personal ideas matter more than Canon law and tradition, they should join a Protestant church instead. What's especially maddening are their crocodile tears, if the Church doesn't change to the times than it'll become "irrelevant".

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:09 am**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-09/catholic-women-pushing-for-change-post-george-pell-convict/11173526

This makes me mad to be quite honest. Catholics who feel that the Church hasn't caught up to their progressive ideals. If their personal ideas matter more than Canon law and tradition, they should join a Protestant church instead. What's especially maddening are their crocodile tears, if the Church doesn't change to the times than it'll become "irrelevant".

While I’m not going to jump in on the theology, there is a valid point: If the Church cannot adapt, it’s not gonna last. It’s why Pope Francis was a blessing for the Church’s longevity.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:16 am**

Kowani wrote:While I’m not going to jump in on the theology, there is a valid point: If the Church cannot adapt, it’s not gonna last. It’s why Pope Francis was a blessing for the Church’s longevity.

The Catholic Church is growing almost everywhere but the West.

In most cases, African and Asian Catholics (as well as Protestants) are more conservative and traditional than their Western counterparts.

Compromising doctrinal issues to please Western progressives threatens the stability of the Church. It's also irrelevant. Trying to please wishy-washy Catholics, whose children are probably going to be Protestant or Irreligious is stupid. The future of Catholicism is in Africa and Asia, and I for one eagerly await a black Pope.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:24 am**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Kowani wrote:While I’m not going to jump in on the theology, there is a valid point: If the Church cannot adapt, it’s not gonna last. It’s why Pope Francis was a blessing for the Church’s longevity.

The Catholic Church is growing almost everywhere but the West.

And when those regions stabilize and enrich themselves, that growth’ll reverse.

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:In most cases, African and Asian Catholics (as well as Protestants) are more conservative and traditional than their Western counterparts.
Trust me when I say that’s not a good thing. Remember how the European wars of Religion directly led to the Church losing a crapton of power?
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Compromising doctrinal issues to please Western progressives threatens the stability of the Church. It's also irrelevant. Trying to please wishy-washy Catholics, whose children are probably going to be Protestant or Irreligious is stupid.
I did say that I wasn’t going to get into the theology.
Jack Thomas Lang wrote: The future of Catholicism is in Africa and Asia,

That’ll be a nice 70 years.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:24 am**

Kowani wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-09/catholic-women-pushing-for-change-post-george-pell-convict/11173526

This makes me mad to be quite honest. Catholics who feel that the Church hasn't caught up to their progressive ideals. If their personal ideas matter more than Canon law and tradition, they should join a Protestant church instead. What's especially maddening are their crocodile tears, if the Church doesn't change to the times than it'll become "irrelevant".

While I’m not going to jump in on the theology, there is a valid point: If the Church cannot adapt, it’s not gonna last. It’s why Pope Francis was a blessing for the Church’s longevity.

Yes and no. Firstly that’s not what’s happening here, what’s happening is an activist is trying to exploit a tragedy to move in a direction they want. The ploy is try to pretend appointing women priests will protect children, where all evidence points to the contrary. While abuse by women isn’t charted very well recent reporting trends suggest women abuse children just as often as men do.

Secondly, while the Church does need to keep at least one finger on the pulse of society, it cannot compromise on issues of faith and morals. So people can winge all they want about things like Gay Marriage and contraception, but the Church will not yield. The Church cannot yield.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:29 am**

Tarsonis wrote:
Kowani wrote:While I’m not going to jump in on the theology, there is a valid point: If the Church cannot adapt, it’s not gonna last. It’s why Pope Francis was a blessing for the Church’s longevity.

Yes and no. Firstly that’s not what’s happening here, what’s happening is an activist is trying to exploit a tragedy to move in a direction they want.

You say that like its a bad thing. I refer to you the case of Emmet Till.

Tarsonis wrote: The ploy is try to pretend appointing women priests will protect children, where all evidence points to the contrary. While abuse by women isn’t charted very well recent reporting trends suggest women abuse children just as often as men do.

This itself isn’t really a discussion I want to have, because I’m not familiar enough with any of the background information.

Tarsonis wrote:Secondly, while the Church does need to keep at least one finger on the pulse of society, it cannot compromise on issues of faith and morals. So people can winge all they want about things like Gay Marriage and contraception, but the Church will not yield. The Church cannot yield.

Eh. I’m sure that’s what the last Inquisitor said, too, only in bad Latin.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:30 am**

Kowani wrote: And when those regions stabilize and enrich themselves, that growth’ll reverse.

I can't argue against speculation, although I can't deny the effect of Western cultural colonisation.

Trust me when I say that’s not a good thing. Remember how the European wars of Religion directly led to the Church losing a crapton of power?

How are the European Wars of Religion relevant? Modern-day Africa has very little in common with 16-17th century Europe.

That’ll be a nice 70 years.

If that's all we get, so be it. But again, speculation.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:33 am**

Kowani wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Yes and no. Firstly that’s not what’s happening here, what’s happening is an activist is trying to exploit a tragedy to move in a direction they want.
You say that like its a bad thing. I refer to you the case of Emmet Till.

Very different circumstances there.

Tarsonis wrote: The ploy is try to pretend appointing women priests will protect children, where all evidence points to the contrary. While abuse by women isn’t charted very well recent reporting trends suggest women abuse children just as often as men do.
This itself isn’t really a discussion I want to have, because I’m not familiar enough with any of the background information.

. You really shouldn’t have commented to begin with then.

Tarsonis wrote:Secondly, while the Church does need to keep at least one finger on the pulse of society, it cannot compromise on issues of faith and morals. So people can winge all they want about things like Gay Marriage and contraception, but the Church will not yield. The Church cannot yield.

Eh. I’m sure that’s what the last Inquisitor said, too, only in bad Latin.

Oh look, another vacuous comment devoid of any value, masquerading as a witticism. This Shtick is getting old Kowani.

Now mind you I wasn’t mking some rioutous platitude. When I said the church cannot yield. I mean that literally it doesn’t have the ability to. The nature of the Sacraments are a matter of Dogma. The church has no mechanism to change dogma.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:35 am**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Kowani wrote: .

How are the European Wars of Religion relevant? Modern-day Africa has very little in common with 16-17th century Europe.

Religions have two great weaknesses on the PR front. One, is fundamentalists, and the other is religious warfare. And Fundamentalists are very good at the second part.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:39 am**

Kowani wrote:Religions have two great weaknesses on the PR front. One, is fundamentalists, and the other is religious warfare. And Fundamentalists are very good at the second part.

It's incredibly reductive to blame the European Wars on Religion on religious fundamentalism. And generalising all fundamentalists as ISIS-in-waiting is laughably wrong.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:42 am**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Kowani wrote:Religions have two great weaknesses on the PR front. One, is fundamentalists, and the other is religious warfare. And Fundamentalists are very good at the second part.

It's incredibly reductive to blame the European Wars on Religion on religious fundamentalism. And generalising all fundamentalists as ISIS-in-waiting is laughably wrong.

Should also be pointed out that while fundamentalist has become the modern parlance in the wake of Islamist fundamentalist isn’t really the correct term to drsrcribe the broader cast of perpetrators. Zealots would be more appropriate

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:44 am**

Tarsonis wrote:Should also be pointed out that while fundamentalist has become the modern parlance in the wake of Islamist fundamentalist isn’t really the correct term to drsrcribe the broader cast of perpetrators. Zealots would be more appropriate

You're completely right. Fundamentalism involves a strict interpretation of stricture. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus call for violence, and I'm quite sure that the Old Testament doesn't call for general violence against the "infidel".

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:01 am**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:Should also be pointed out that while fundamentalist has become the modern parlance in the wake of Islamist fundamentalist isn’t really the correct term to drsrcribe the broader cast of perpetrators. Zealots would be more appropriate

You're completely right. Fundamentalism involves a strict interpretation of stricture. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus call for violence, and I'm quite sure that the Old Testament doesn't call for general violence against the "infidel".

Did Jesus not chase bankers with a whip?

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:14 am**

The Grims wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:You're completely right. Fundamentalism involves a strict interpretation of stricture. Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus call for violence, and I'm quite sure that the Old Testament doesn't call for general violence against the "infidel".

Did Jesus not chase bankers with a whip?

Because they turned the temple to a den of thieves; they were charging the poor people who came there in pilgrimages from all over the Empire with overcharged prices on sacrificial lambs and doves, and the priests were directly responsible for this.

Jesus was only trashing out injustice being done to Jewish pilgrims that only wanted to offer sacrifices.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:15 am**

Kowani wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:

Religions have two great weaknesses on the PR front. One, is fundamentalists, and the other is religious warfare. And Fundamentalists are very good at the second part.

There is an exactly zero percent probability that I will “Deus Vult” you while wearing knightly armor.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:42 pm**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-09/catholic-women-pushing-for-change-post-george-pell-convict/11173526

This makes me mad to be quite honest. Catholics who feel that the Church hasn't caught up to their progressive ideals. If their personal ideas matter more than Canon law and tradition, they should join a Protestant church instead. What's especially maddening are their crocodile tears, if the Church doesn't change to the times than it'll become "irrelevant".

You know, I don't get why some women get so caught up in pining to be priests.

The Church's history is filled with spiritual leaders and influences who were women (and not priests), so it's not like they can't play a (for lack of a better word) pastoral and guiding role among Catholics.

So I'm guessing it's less that, and more that they want institutional power.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:46 pm**

Kowani wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-09/catholic-women-pushing-for-change-post-george-pell-convict/11173526

This makes me mad to be quite honest. Catholics who feel that the Church hasn't caught up to their progressive ideals. If their personal ideas matter more than Canon law and tradition, they should join a Protestant church instead. What's especially maddening are their crocodile tears, if the Church doesn't change to the times than it'll become "irrelevant".

While I’m not going to jump in on the theology, there is a valid point: If the Church cannot adapt, it’s not gonna last. It’s why Pope Francis was a blessing for the Church’s longevity.

Umm, reminder that in the west the denominations that are weathering the secularist storm the best are the ones that haven't "adapted".

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:56 pm**

Diopolis wrote:Umm, reminder that in the west the denominations that are weathering the secularist storm the best are the ones that haven't "adapted".

Conservative Protestant Churches, for example.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:58 pm**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Umm, reminder that in the west the denominations that are weathering the secularist storm the best are the ones that haven't "adapted".

Conservative Protestant Churches, for example.

Or mormons v almost everyone else.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:14 pm**

Diopolis wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Conservative Protestant Churches, for example.

Or mormons v almost everyone else.

Mormons have adapted a little actually. Remember God changed his mind about polygamy and black people.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:31 pm**

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Umm, reminder that in the west the denominations that are weathering the secularist storm the best are the ones that haven't "adapted".

Conservative Protestant Churches, for example.

I long for the day when the ELCA collapses under its own heresy.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:32 pm**

Minachia wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:Conservative Protestant Churches, for example.

I long for the day when the ELCA collapses under its own heresy.

Isn't there some kind of merger agreement between them and the episcopalians, or am I imagining things?

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:34 pm**

Diopolis wrote:
Minachia wrote:I long for the day when the ELCA collapses under its own heresy.

Isn't there some kind of merger agreement between them and the episcopalians, or am I imagining things?

IIRC, their bishops recognize each other as legit and even do ordinations for each other, or something along those lines.

Posted: **Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:36 pm**

Minachia wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Isn't there some kind of merger agreement between them and the episcopalians, or am I imagining things?

IIRC, their bishops recognize each other as legit and even do ordinations for each other, or something along those lines.

The raddy-traddiest fringe groups from the Catholics and Orthodox also do that, and no one's claiming that they are heading for a merger.

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