The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Tarsonis]

Reading through the General threads this morning has further reinforced my stance that you cannot have discussions regarding the morality of abortions and expect anything other than frustration. You cannot have common ground with someone working from a perpendicular moral framework to your own.

So what you're saying is...deus vult?

[Salus Maior]

Well, not if they weren't ever given Apostolic succession.

They wouldn't be a formally consecrated Pope that is true, so not by De Jure standards But if they are the only Christian male alive, they would de facto be the supreme pontiff of the entire Church, given that they would pretty much be the entire Church.

I mean, there wouldn't really be a church if there were no consecrated priests or bishops.

[Salus Maior]

Reading through the General threads this morning has further reinforced my stance that you cannot have discussions regarding the morality of abortions and expect anything other than frustration. You cannot have common ground with someone working from a perpendicular moral framework to your own.

So what you're saying is...deus vult?

The Holy Bible may preach peace....

[Salus Maior]

Reading through the General threads this morning has further reinforced my stance that you cannot have discussions regarding the morality of abortions and expect anything other than frustration. You cannot have common ground with someone working from a perpendicular moral framework to your own.

Pretty much.

The moral point of view of pro-choice advocates has completely diverged from that of pro-lifers. There really isn't much point to discussion with those who have cemented themselves in that position.

[Regal Georgia]

Reading through the General threads this morning has further reinforced my stance that you cannot have discussions regarding the morality of abortions and expect anything other than frustration. You cannot have common ground with someone working from a perpendicular moral framework to your own.

So what you're saying is...deus vult?

Moreso shaking the dust off your feet, but I appreciate the sentiment.

[Tarsonis]

So what you're saying is...deus vult?

Moreso shaking the dust off your feet, but I appreciate the sentiment.

I mean, it's a fruitless battle in terms of you're not going to convince anyone here. But it is worthwhile to engage with their arguments, so that you can recognize them, and learn how to refute them. You'll find the holes in your arguments, learn how to present them in more receptive ways, and all around become a better supporter of the unborn. Think of it more training than a legitimate enterprise

[Regal Georgia]

Moreso shaking the dust off your feet, but I appreciate the sentiment.

I mean, it's a fruitless battle in terms of you're not going to convince anyone here. But it is worthwhile to engage with their arguments, so that you can recognize them, and learn how to refute them. Think of it more training than a legitimate enterprise

That, I agree with. It's application of the Sun Tzu maxim. It can serve as a way to bolster the ranks of your own community.

[Luminesa]

Reading through the General threads this morning has further reinforced my stance that you cannot have discussions regarding the morality of abortions and expect anything other than frustration. You cannot have common ground with someone working from a perpendicular moral framework to your own.

So what you're saying is...deus vult?

Deus Vult? I have it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

[Stonok]

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the intense denominationalism within the Baptist churches or at least my own. I was raised Southern Baptist and now go to an Independent Baptist church, and it feels like every other service the pulpit becomes a platform for propaganda and ignorance to church history. Baseless statements about how the King James Version is the only real Bible because it is closest to the Greek (when the person making the statement has no knowledge of Greek by their own admission), blind condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist, and even the claim that Baptists were never even part of the Catholic Church. I have no notions to join the Catholic Church, but I will gladly admit the historical fact that the Protestant Reformation, which gave birth to Baptists and every other mainline denomination, came out of the RCC. I love this church for its work in missions and the love of its members toward one another, but the condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist or even other Baptists if they do little things like use real wine in the Eucharist is sitting less and less comfortably with me. But I've sewn so many seeds here I feel conflicted about beginning the search for a new church. I worry that my frustration with this leads to sin, but at the same time I feel that it is righteous anger and that I should do something about it. I don't know if I should follow it or not. I would likely find this same sentiment anywhere.

[Northern Davincia]

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the intense denominationalism within the Baptist churches or at least my own. I was raised Southern Baptist and now go to an Independent Baptist church, and it feels like every other service the pulpit becomes a platform for propaganda and ignorance to church history. Baseless statements about how the King James Version is the only real Bible because it is closest to the Greek (when the person making the statement has no knowledge of Greek by their own admission), blind condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist, and even the claim that Baptists were never even part of the Catholic Church. I have no notions to join the Catholic Church, but I will gladly admit the historical fact that the Protestant Reformation, which gave birth to Baptists and every other mainline denomination, came out of the RCC. I love this church for its work in missions and the love of its members toward one another, but the condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist or even other Baptists if they do little things like use real wine in the Eucharist is sitting less and less comfortably with me. But I've sewn so many seeds here I feel conflicted about beginning the search for a new church. I worry that my frustration with this leads to sin, but at the same time I feel that it is righteous anger and that I should do something about it. I don't know if I should follow it or not. I would likely find this same sentiment anywhere.

Balkanization of the church is logically what happens when a precedent for breaking away is established.
What sin do you feel you are at risk of committing?

[Stonok]

What sin do you feel you are at risk of committing?

That my anger towards the resentful alienation of my brothers in Christ from other denominations will lead me to resent and alienate those who have such ideas if I act on it, and Christ's love would become totally absent from the whole ordeal and all parties involved would merely be serving Satan's divisive ends under a false pretense of Godliness.

[Northern Davincia]

What sin do you feel you are at risk of committing?

That my anger towards the resentful alienation of my brothers in Christ from other denominations will lead me to resent and alienate those who have such ideas if I act on it, and Christ's love would become totally absent from the whole ordeal and all parties involved would merely be serving Satan's divisive ends under a false pretense of Godliness.

A righteous anger is different from sinful wrath. The truth is usually divisive, but you are better for speaking it than not.

[Stonok]

That my anger towards the resentful alienation of my brothers in Christ from other denominations will lead me to resent and alienate those who have such ideas if I act on it, and Christ's love would become totally absent from the whole ordeal and all parties involved would merely be serving Satan's divisive ends under a false pretense of Godliness.

A righteous anger is different from sinful wrath. The truth is usually divisive, but you are better for speaking it than not.

Oh, that I don't deny. But even emotions which are righteous in origin can drift into sin. They may come from a holy place but the flesh is still the conduit, and flesh of course is corruptible, and at times is even the corrupter. My concern is that though my indignation is justifiable at the moment, if I say, move churches right now, the flesh could take that and just make me where I run away from otherwise decent congregations whenever I have disagreements.

[Tarsonis]

So what you're saying is...deus vult?

Deus Vult? I have it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

[Tarsonis]

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the intense denominationalism within the Baptist churches or at least my own. I was raised Southern Baptist and now go to an Independent Baptist church, and it feels like every other service the pulpit becomes a platform for propaganda and ignorance to church history. Baseless statements about how the King James Version is the only real Bible because it is closest to the Greek (when the person making the statement has no knowledge of Greek by their own admission), blind condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist, and even the claim that Baptists were never even part of the Catholic Church. I have no notions to join the Catholic Church, but I will gladly admit the historical fact that the Protestant Reformation, which gave birth to Baptists and every other mainline denomination, came out of the RCC. I love this church for its work in missions and the love of its members toward one another, but the condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist or even other Baptists if they do little things like use real wine in the Eucharist is sitting less and less comfortably with me. But I've sewn so many seeds here I feel conflicted about beginning the search for a new church. I worry that my frustration with this leads to sin, but at the same time I feel that it is righteous anger and that I should do something about it. I don't know if I should follow it or not. I would likely find this same sentiment anywhere.

Maybe you should rethink those sentiments about not joining Rome, cause I don’t think you’ll find these sentiments here.

[Kowani]

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the intense denominationalism within the Baptist churches or at least my own. I was raised Southern Baptist and now go to an Independent Baptist church, and it feels like every other service the pulpit becomes a platform for propaganda and ignorance to church history. Baseless statements about how the King James Version is the only real Bible because it is closest to the Greek (when the person making the statement has no knowledge of Greek by their own admission), blind condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist, and even the claim that Baptists were never even part of the Catholic Church. I have no notions to join the Catholic Church, but I will gladly admit the historical fact that the Protestant Reformation, which gave birth to Baptists and every other mainline denomination, came out of the RCC. I love this church for its work in missions and the love of its members toward one another, but the condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist or even other Baptists if they do little things like use real wine in the Eucharist is sitting less and less comfortably with me. But I've sewn so many seeds here I feel conflicted about beginning the search for a new church. I worry that my frustration with this leads to sin, but at the same time I feel that it is righteous anger and that I should do something about it. I don't know if I should follow it or not. I would likely find this same sentiment anywhere.

Maybe you should rethink those sentiments about not joining Rome, cause I don’t think you’ll find these sentiments here.

Despite not being Christian, I’m pretty sure trying to convert someone in a spiritual crisis is generally bad form.

[Tarsonis]

Maybe you should rethink those sentiments about not joining Rome, cause I don’t think you’ll find these sentiments here.

Despite not being Christian, I’m pretty sure trying to convert someone in a spiritual crisis is generally bad form.

While I’d debate that, (sometimes spiritual crisis are the best time for evangelization,)in this case that’s not my intent. Stonoks experience is very similar to my own, as I grew up southern evangelical baptist as well. One of the many reasons I converted to Catholicism was the unity of the Catholic Church over the petty infighting of the Protestants and evangelicals. That’s not to say we don’t have our own share of infighting, but it’s very different and not merely as prominent. If stonak is distressed by the infighting, he might consider a more unified body of believes like Catholic or Orthodox churches

[Kowani]

Despite not being Christian, I’m pretty sure trying to convert someone in a spiritual crisis is generally bad form.

While I’d debate that, (sometimes spiritual crisis are the best time for evangelization,)in this case that’s not my intent. Stonoks experience is very similar to my own, as I grew up southern evangelical baptist as well. One of the many reasons I converted to Catholicism was the unity of the Catholic Church over the petty infighting of the Protestants and evangelicals. That’s not to say we don’t have our own share of infighting, but it’s very different and not merely as prominent. If stonak is distressed by the infighting, he might consider a more unified body of believes like Catholic or Orthodox churches

I see. I’m not retracting my comment, but I do accept your reasoning.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I recently was asked this question: “If a person rejects Christianity and the idea of God completely, but decides to be kind to others in life, is he not at heart a better person than someone who acts in a kind way either out of fear of punishment, expectation of a reward, or because he’s following orders? In other words, wouldn’t you see what a person really was if they were stripped of all religions and moral codes coming outside, would t that be the supreme test?“

I answered that yes, they would be a better person, however the question would be irrelevant because those that do good out of expectation of a reward and out of fear of punishment, rather than for the simple fact that it is good, would be judged accordingly. I was wondering about the CDT’s thoughts on the question and my answer.

[Tarsonis]

I recently was asked this question: “If a person rejects Christianity and the idea of God completely, but decides to be kind to others in life, is he not at heart a better person than someone who acts in a kind way either out of fear of punishment, expectation of a reward, or because he’s following orders? In other words, wouldn’t you see what a person really was if they were stripped of all religions and moral codes coming outside, would t that be the supreme test?“

I answered that yes, they would be a better person, however the question would be irrelevant because those that do good out of expectation of a reward and out of fear of punishment, rather than for the simple fact that it is good, would be judged accordingly. I was wondering about the CDT’s thoughts on the question and my answer.

It doesn’t matter anyway. No one is so good as to merit salvation. It’s not about whose the “Better” person, it’s whose accepted God’s grace.

[Kowani]

I recently was asked this question: “If a person rejects Christianity and the idea of God completely, but decides to be kind to others in life, is he not at heart a better person than someone who acts in a kind way either out of fear of punishment, expectation of a reward, or because he’s following orders? In other words, wouldn’t you see what a person really was if they were stripped of all religions and moral codes coming outside, would t that be the supreme test?“

I answered that yes, they would be a better person, however the question would be irrelevant because those that do good out of expectation of a reward and out of fear of punishment, rather than for the simple fact that it is good, would be judged accordingly. I was wondering about the CDT’s thoughts on the question and my answer.

It doesn’t matter anyway. No one is so good as to merit salvation. It’s not about whose the “Better” person, it’s whose accepted God’s grace.

Ah, there’s the bullshit of the day!
Welp, see you in hell Gandhi!

[Nordengrund]

I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the intense denominationalism within the Baptist churches or at least my own. I was raised Southern Baptist and now go to an Independent Baptist church, and it feels like every other service the pulpit becomes a platform for propaganda and ignorance to church history. Baseless statements about how the King James Version is the only real Bible because it is closest to the Greek (when the person making the statement has no knowledge of Greek by their own admission), blind condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist, and even the claim that Baptists were never even part of the Catholic Church. I have no notions to join the Catholic Church, but I will gladly admit the historical fact that the Protestant Reformation, which gave birth to Baptists and every other mainline denomination, came out of the RCC. I love this church for its work in missions and the love of its members toward one another, but the condemnation of anyone who isn't a Baptist or even other Baptists if they do little things like use real wine in the Eucharist is sitting less and less comfortably with me. But I've sewn so many seeds here I feel conflicted about beginning the search for a new church. I worry that my frustration with this leads to sin, but at the same time I feel that it is righteous anger and that I should do something about it. I don't know if I should follow it or not. I would likely find this same sentiment anywhere.

Denominationalosn is a human problem and we suffer from pride. Admittedly, my experience is different, as I was also raised Southern Baptist, but haven’t seen so many of the stereotypical Baptists. I’ve actually experienced more divisiveness and judgmentalism from non-denominational megachurches and some 7th Day Adventists, than I have from Southern Baptists. Independent Baptists are pretty crazy, though. I was kinda confused by your post as I’m not sure if the problems you have are with Baptists in general, or with either Southern or Independent Baptists.

I had thoughts about joining Anglicanism, and I used to half-jokingly call myself an “Anglo-Baptist” or high-church Baptist. I later determined that Anglicanism might not be a good fit for me even though there are many things I admire about that tradition. I wanted to retain a Baptist soteriology and view of the sacraments but have an Anglican-style service.

Nowadays, I lean towards being Reformed, though I’m not fully on board.

[The Blaatschapen]

It doesn’t matter anyway. No one is so good as to merit salvation. It’s not about whose the “Better” person, it’s whose accepted God’s grace.

Ah, there’s the bullshit of the day!
Welp, see you in hell Gandhi!

Hell has the funnier people.

And Gandhi.

[Regal Georgia]

It doesn’t matter anyway. No one is so good as to merit salvation. It’s not about whose the “Better” person, it’s whose accepted God’s grace.

Ah, there’s the bullshit of the day!
Welp, see you in hell Gandhi!

You seemed shocked that someone who is a Christian would hold the Christian worldview as truth. According to the scriptures, there is no salvation outside of Christ, regardless of whatever work you do to prove you're a "good person." I'm not sure why you roll up in the CDT expecting to have your own cultural values reflected.

Also, Gandhi was a fan of having young girls give him enemas. Fun fact.

[Andsed]

Ah, there’s the bullshit of the day!
Welp, see you in hell Gandhi!

Hell has the funnier people.

And Gandhi.

Yeah I mean TBH I think heaven would be pretty dull and boring with not be able to sin.