The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Hakons]

I think calling pro lifers and catholics evil is also a massive stretch.

I wouldn't call someone evil for being morally opposed to abortion, but I do have a serious problem with anyone who is actively trying to make abortion illegal. Regardless of one's intentions, prohibition of abortion causes serious harm, so in that sense it is "evil" in the way that any action which hurts people is.

I can think of another action that causes much more harm and much more hurt, and it happens quite a lot because of our laws. Opposing abortion is in no way evil and in no way bad.

EDIT: To avoid this potentially going to an abortion debate (which already has its own thread), I'll explain some. Christians are largely against abortion because life is seen as intrinsically valuable. God gives us life, and we should not arbitrarily take this away. The Church has consistently been against abortion, with the first documentation of an explicit condemnation being found in the Didache, a 1st century Christian text. Only a few denominations do not condemn abortion, and those are recent changes. The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Communion, and various other protestant groups all condemn abortion as sinful.

[New Visayan Islands]

Allow me to sing the song of my people on the Feast of the Christ Child.

[Lamoni]

Look if you’re not a fan of Catholicism whatever. If you show up to the March for Life just to protest Catholics, you’re the one doing the devils work.

How so ? The people walking in the march of life are pretty evil - if they are also Catholic that makes them double vile.

Is opposing evil the devils work ?

*** Warning for Trolling ***

All X are Y is still trolling. Don't do it.

[Kowani]

I wouldn't call someone evil for being morally opposed to abortion, but I do have a serious problem with anyone who is actively trying to make abortion illegal. Regardless of one's intentions, prohibition of abortion causes serious harm, so in that sense it is "evil" in the way that any action which hurts people is.

I can think of another action that causes much more harm and much more hurt, and it happens quite a lot because of our laws. Opposing abortion is in no way evil and in no way bad.

EDIT: To avoid this potentially going to an abortion debate (which already has its own thread), I'll explain some. Christians are largely against abortion because life is seen as intrinsically valuable. God gives us life, and we should not arbitrarily take this away. The Church has consistently been against abortion, with the first documentation of an explicit condemnation being found in the Didache, a 1st century Christian text. Only a few denominations do not condemn abortion, and those are recent changes. The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Communion, and various other protestant groups all condemn abortion as sinful.

To avoid escalating this too much, I’ll just use the following remark: One cannot ban abortion, only safe abortion. If you wanted to prevent the loss of life, one is better than two, correct?

[Great Kauthar]

I can think of another action that causes much more harm and much more hurt, and it happens quite a lot because of our laws. Opposing abortion is in no way evil and in no way bad.

EDIT: To avoid this potentially going to an abortion debate (which already has its own thread), I'll explain some. Christians are largely against abortion because life is seen as intrinsically valuable. God gives us life, and we should not arbitrarily take this away. The Church has consistently been against abortion, with the first documentation of an explicit condemnation being found in the Didache, a 1st century Christian text. Only a few denominations do not condemn abortion, and those are recent changes. The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Communion, and various other protestant groups all condemn abortion as sinful.

To avoid escalating this too much, I’ll just use the following remark: One cannot ban abortion, only safe abortion. If you wanted to prevent the loss of life, one is better than two, correct?

That's such a stupid way to think. Like 95-98% of people who get abortions get them voluntarily. They're not being forced to get it. They don't NEED to get an abortion. All abortions are unsafe, since at the end of the day, at least one person is dying.

[Hakons]

I can think of another action that causes much more harm and much more hurt, and it happens quite a lot because of our laws. Opposing abortion is in no way evil and in no way bad.

EDIT: To avoid this potentially going to an abortion debate (which already has its own thread), I'll explain some. Christians are largely against abortion because life is seen as intrinsically valuable. God gives us life, and we should not arbitrarily take this away. The Church has consistently been against abortion, with the first documentation of an explicit condemnation being found in the Didache, a 1st century Christian text. Only a few denominations do not condemn abortion, and those are recent changes. The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Communion, and various other protestant groups all condemn abortion as sinful.

To avoid escalating this too much, I’ll just use the following remark: One cannot ban abortion, only safe abortion. If you wanted to prevent the loss of life, one is better than two, correct?

The equivalent phrase is, "One cannot ban murder, only safe murder." Obviously murder is not justified because people choose to disobey the law and commit murder. The government regulating and facilitating murder is not the appropriate solution.

Christianity isn't utilitarian. The ends don't justify the means, especially when the means is a mortal sin so severe the Church applies an automatic excommunication.

[Kowani]

To avoid escalating this too much, I’ll just use the following remark: One cannot ban abortion, only safe abortion. If you wanted to prevent the loss of life, one is better than two, correct?

The equivalent phrase is, "One cannot ban murder, only safe murder." Obviously murder is not justified because people choose to disobey the law and commit murder. The government regulating and facilitating murder is not the appropriate solution.

...That’s not true in the slightest. If a government criminalizes murder, (and you don’t live in a corrupt state), then musée rates tend to decline. Abortion doesn’t work that way. If someone really wants one, it is nearly impossible to stop them, unless you want a 1984 style state. Criminalizing abortion will maybe prevent some abortions, but the women will suffer on a much larger scale.

Christianity isn't utilitarian. The ends don't justify the means, especially when the means is a mortal sin so severe the Church applies an automatic excommunication.

Utilitarian or no, 2 lives are more valuable than 1, yes? Therefore, one should attempt to protect as many lives as possible.

[Salus Maior]

The equivalent phrase is, "One cannot ban murder, only safe murder." Obviously murder is not justified because people choose to disobey the law and commit murder. The government regulating and facilitating murder is not the appropriate solution.

...That’s not true in the slightest. If a government criminalizes murder, (and you don’t live in a corrupt state), then musée rates tend to decline. Abortion doesn’t work that way. If someone really wants one, it is nearly impossible to stop them, unless you want a 1984 style state. Criminalizing abortion will maybe prevent some abortions, but the women will suffer on a much larger scale.

Christianity isn't utilitarian. The ends don't justify the means, especially when the means is a mortal sin so severe the Church applies an automatic excommunication.

Utilitarian or no, 2 lives are more valuable than 1, yes? Therefore, one should attempt to protect as many lives as possible.

Then you design policy to mitigate any suffering the women would encounter by avoiding an abortion as best as one possibly can. And if they pursue an unsafe abortion regardless, that's on their own head honestly.

So then by that statement you are conceding that an unborn child is indeed a human life?

[Kowani]

...That’s not true in the slightest. If a government criminalizes murder, (and you don’t live in a corrupt state), then musée rates tend to decline. Abortion doesn’t work that way. If someone really wants one, it is nearly impossible to stop them, unless you want a 1984 style state. Criminalizing abortion will maybe prevent some abortions, but the women will suffer on a much larger scale.
Utilitarian or no, 2 lives are more valuable than 1, yes? Therefore, one should attempt to protect as many lives as possible.

Then you design policy to mitigate any suffering the women would encounter by avoiding an abortion as best as one possibly can.

Yeah, birth control, and other contraceptives as well as mandatory sex education should do that far better than anything else. Oh wait, that “interferes with the value of the sexual act.”

And if they pursue an unsafe abortion regardless, that's on their own head honestly.

“All lives are valuable until they do something I don’t like.” Y’see, here’s the problem: Banning abortion doesn’t stop abortion. It won’t. Legalizing it will make it safe. If your end goal is to protect life, then you have to legalize it.

So then by that statement you are conceding that an unborn child is indeed a human life?

Never said it wasn’t alive. I’ve said that it’s not a person, and, more importantly, even if it was, it still doesn’t override bodily autonomy.

[Hakons]

Then you design policy to mitigate any suffering the women would encounter by avoiding an abortion as best as one possibly can.

Yeah, birth control, and other contraceptives as well as mandatory sex education should do that far better than anything else. Oh wait, that “interferes with the value of the sexual act.”

And if they pursue an unsafe abortion regardless, that's on their own head honestly.

“All lives are valuable until they do something I don’t like.” Y’see, here’s the problem: Banning abortion doesn’t stop abortion. It won’t. Legalizing it will make it safe. If your end goal is to protect life, then you have to legalize it.

So then by that statement you are conceding that an unborn child is indeed a human life?

Never said it wasn’t alive. I’ve said that it’s not a person, and, more importantly, even if it was, it still doesn’t override bodily autonomy.

>"To avoid escalating this too much..."
>Procedes to mock Christian morality and makes no effort to address the Christian argument

We have told you our position. It is the same as it has been since the 1st century, because it is an obvious moral truth. If you want to dispute this moral theology, by all means present a theological argument as to why Christians shouldn't be against abortion. If you only want to make fun of Christians and make a fuss about our objection to industrial-scale infanticide, go join the people in the abortion thread that already do that.

[Kowani]

Yeah, birth control, and other contraceptives as well as mandatory sex education should do that far better than anything else. Oh wait, that “interferes with the value of the sexual act.”
“All lives are valuable until they do something I don’t like.” Y’see, here’s the problem: Banning abortion doesn’t stop abortion. It won’t. Legalizing it will make it safe. If your end goal is to protect life, then you have to legalize it.

Never said it wasn’t alive. I’ve said that it’s not a person, and, more importantly, even if it was, it still doesn’t override bodily autonomy.

>"To avoid escalating this too much..."
>Procedes to mock Christian morality and makes no effort to address the Christian argument

We have told you our position. It is the same as it has been since the 1st century, because it is an obvious moral truth. If you want to dispute this moral theology, by all means present a theological argument as to why Christians shouldn't be against abortion. If you only want to make fun of Christians and make a fuss about our objection to industrial-scale infanticide, go join the people in the abortion thread that already do that.

I am presenting an argument: Legalizing abortio(n saves lives. Killing is bad in Christianity. Not legalizing abortion kills both women and fetus. (Or kills the fetus and damages the woman.) Therefore, one should seek to limit the causes for abortion while maintaining its legality.

The traditional Christian policies do not work, is the crux of the argument.

[Hakons]

>"To avoid escalating this too much..."
>Procedes to mock Christian morality and makes no effort to address the Christian argument

We have told you our position. It is the same as it has been since the 1st century, because it is an obvious moral truth. If you want to dispute this moral theology, by all means present a theological argument as to why Christians shouldn't be against abortion. If you only want to make fun of Christians and make a fuss about our objection to industrial-scale infanticide, go join the people in the abortion thread that already do that.

I am presenting an argument: Legalizing abortio(n saves lives. Killing is bad in Christianity. Not legalizing abortion kills both women and fetus. (Or kills the fetus and damages the woman.) Therefore, one should seek to limit the causes for abortion while maintaining its legality.

The traditional Christian policies do not work, is the crux of the argument.

Your argument doesn't work in Christianity. Legal abortion doesn't save lives. Every single abortion results in a death, a murder. When one doesn't have an abortion, most of the time it results in a birth. You still aren't arguing in the realm of Christianity. You're using dead, secular arguments that aren't even convincing.

Once again, if you won't discuss Christianity in the CDT, don't post about things like abortion. Stop demonstrating you're "not to escalate things" post was a complete farce.

[Kowani]

I am presenting an argument: Legalizing abortio(n saves lives. Killing is bad in Christianity. Not legalizing abortion kills both women and fetus. (Or kills the fetus and damages the woman.) Therefore, one should seek to limit the causes for abortion while maintaining its legality.

The traditional Christian policies do not work, is the crux of the argument.

Your argument doesn't work in Christianity. Legal abortion doesn't save lives. Every single abortion results in a death, a murder. When one doesn't have an abortion, most of the time it results in a birth. You still aren't arguing in the realm of Christianity. You're using dead, secular arguments that aren't even convincing.

Except, no. When one doesn’t have a legal abortion, they tend to get illegal ones. Which cause two deaths instead of one, or one death and more suffering. You can accuse me of doing something all you like, and it does not change the point. All you do is drive women from hospitals into alleys. Of course, some women may choose to have kids because abortion is illegalized. We can look at general poverty to see what happens when one has too many kids. Oh wait. Life sucks, crime rises, the kids sin, and end up murdering others. Wonderful outcome for everyone! We’ve driven someone into drug use, destroyed another person’s life, and got somebody killed! But hey, at least it wasn’t a fetus who died.

Y’wanna learn how to actually prevent abortion? Contraceptives and sex ed.

Once again, if you won't discuss Christianity in the CDT, don't post about things like abortion. Stop demonstrating you're "not to escalate things" post was a complete farce.

I am trying to explain why Christians should be for legalizing abortion. That I do not use a Bible Verse to do it is irrelevant.

[Minachia]

Your argument doesn't work in Christianity. Legal abortion doesn't save lives. Every single abortion results in a death, a murder. When one doesn't have an abortion, most of the time it results in a birth. You still aren't arguing in the realm of Christianity. You're using dead, secular arguments that aren't even convincing.

Except, no. When one doesn’t have a legal abortion, they tend to get illegal ones. Which cause two deaths instead of one, or one death and more suffering. You can accuse me of doing something all you like, and it does not change the point. All you do is drive women from hospitals into alleys. Of course, some women may choose to have kids because abortion is illegalized. We can look at general poverty to see what happens when one has too many kids. Oh wait. Life sucks, crime rises, the kids sin, and end up murdering others. Wonderful outcome for everyone! We’ve driven someone into drug use, destroyed another person’s life, and got somebody killed! But hey, at least it wasn’t a fetus who died.

Y’wanna learn how to actually prevent abortion? Contraceptives and sex ed.

Once again, if you won't discuss Christianity in the CDT, don't post about things like abortion. Stop demonstrating you're "not to escalate things" post was a complete farce.

I am trying to explain why Christians should be for legalizing abortion. That I do not use a Bible Verse to do it is irrelevant.

Can you accept that killing another human being, except with due process under the law, is wholly and totally immoral, regardless of whether or not the ultimate outcome of them being born is not good, and regardless of whether you are a Christian or not? Can you accept that letting another person kill another person is wholly and totally immoral?

[Kowani]

Except, no. When one doesn’t have a legal abortion, they tend to get illegal ones. Which cause two deaths instead of one, or one death and more suffering. You can accuse me of doing something all you like, and it does not change the point. All you do is drive women from hospitals into alleys. Of course, some women may choose to have kids because abortion is illegalized. We can look at general poverty to see what happens when one has too many kids. Oh wait. Life sucks, crime rises, the kids sin, and end up murdering others. Wonderful outcome for everyone! We’ve driven someone into drug use, destroyed another person’s life, and got somebody killed! But hey, at least it wasn’t a fetus who died.

Y’wanna learn how to actually prevent abortion? Contraceptives and sex ed.
I am trying to explain why Christians should be for legalizing abortion. That I do not use a Bible Verse to do it is irrelevant.

Can you accept that killing another human being, except with due process under the law, is wholly and totally immoral, regardless of whether or not the ultimate outcome of them being born is not good, and regardless of whether you are a Christian or not? Can you accept that letting another person kill another person is wholly and totally immoral?

No. If one death prevents more deaths, than it is a sad but necessary thing.

[Dylar]

Can we move this abortion argument out of our wholesome Christian thread please?

[Minachia]

Can we move this abortion argument out of our wholesome Christian thread please?

Sure.
So, let's get something even more controversial started.

[Stonok]

I got to thinking today; if all Christians are, in a sense, priests, does that mean any Christian could in theory baptize a believer and it be valid?

[Kowani]

I got to thinking today; if all Christians are, in a sense, priests,

Wait, what?

[Minachia]

I got to thinking today; if all Christians are, in a sense, priests, does that mean any Christian could in theory baptize a believer and it be valid?

Any Christian can baptize, but (at least in Lutheranism) it must be immediately reported to a pastor so it's recognized by the congregation.

[Minachia]

I got to thinking today; if all Christians are, in a sense, priests,

Wait, what?

Priesthood of All Believers. Look it up.

[Kowani]

Wait, what?

Priesthood of All Believers. Look it up.

Ah. I like this idea.

[Tarsonis]

I got to thinking today; if all Christians are, in a sense, priests, does that mean any Christian could in theory baptize a believer and it be valid?

That is Catholic Doctrine,...more or less.

[Tarsonis]

Priesthood of All Believers. Look it up.

Ah. I like this idea.

This idea is basic Christian Doctrine professed by most if not all denominations.

[Andromeda Islands]

Can you accept that killing another human being, except with due process under the law, is wholly and totally immoral, regardless of whether or not the ultimate outcome of them being born is not good, and regardless of whether you are a Christian or not? Can you accept that letting another person kill another person is wholly and totally immoral?

Yes and that is why I am an absolute pacifist. If you are not an absolute pacifist, you are not "pro-life".
Absolute pacifists are the true moderates.