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The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
334
36%
Eastern Orthodox
85
9%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
6
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
57
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
96
10%
Methodist
16
2%
Baptist
95
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
72
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
37
4%
Other Christian
137
15%
 
Total votes : 935

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Stonok
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Founded: Nov 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Stonok » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:52 am

Tarsonis wrote:snip

Having a perfect nature and being in the presence of God sounds quite a lot like being a reflection of Him in terms of the original nature and probably by extension the personal characteristics of Adam before his fall; I understand where you're coming from though and you may very well be right. At any rate it doesn't add or take away from the original point to our Gnostic friend; Christians by default do not believe that God (the Father) is literally a grandfather sitting on a cloud.

As for whether or not Adam and Eve are literal, I agree that Genesis uses a great deal of allegorical language but I don't think it's necessarily impossible that it records actual people to an extent and they may very well be the Mitochondrial Adam and Eve scientists have determined all humans are descended from even though they existed alongside thousands of others. I however am not a Young Earth Creationist who thinks Cain married his sister or somehow interbred with an ape...
Last edited by Stonok on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:33 am

Stonok wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:snip

Having a perfect nature and being in the presence of God sounds quite a lot like being a reflection of Him in terms of the original nature and probably by extension the personal characteristics of Adam before his fall; I understand where you're coming from though and you may very well be right. At any rate it doesn't add or take away from the original point to our Gnostic friend; Christians by default do not believe that God (the Father) is literally a grandfather sitting on a cloud.


True enough.

As for whether or not Adam and Eve are literal, I agree that Genesis uses a great deal of allegorical language but I don't think it's necessarily impossible that it records actual people to an extent and they may very well be the Mitochondrial Adam and Eve scientists have determined all humans are descended from even though they existed alongside thousands of others. I however am not a Young Earth Creationist who thinks Cain married his sister or somehow interbred with an ape...


But Mitochondrial Eve and Paternal Adam existed thousands of years apart. It's possible yes, but I don't find it probable.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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Andromeda Islands
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Andromeda Islands » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:41 am

Tarsonis,
That you for taking the time in your responses. It would take me a very long time to respond point by point, but I will take one point about the gender of "God". When we don't know the gender of a fetus we call "it" an "it". That doesn't indicate that the fetus doesn't have gender. When we use the term "God", that implies a masculine gender, and the term "it" would be a more accurate term to indicate a genderless (albeit personal) creator. The point is that in English the pronoun "He" is used when talking about God.
German is different, the neuter "das" (="the) can refer to a male or female in some cases. It's an issue of language and semantics if you simply it.
A wise man once said nothing.

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Stonok
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Ex-Nation

Postby Stonok » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:57 am

Tarsonis wrote:But Mitochondrial Eve and Paternal Adam existed thousands of years apart. It's possible yes, but I don't find it probable.

Hm, that's true. To be honest I mostly only read up on Mitochondrial Eve and presumed that her "husband" was the male equivalent.

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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:20 am

Andromeda Islands wrote:Tarsonis,
That you for taking the time in your responses. It would take me a very long time to respond point by point, but I will take one point about the gender of "God". When we don't know the gender of a fetus we call "it" an "it". That doesn't indicate that the fetus doesn't have gender. When we use the term "God", that implies a masculine gender, and the term "it" would be a more accurate term to indicate a genderless (albeit personal) creator. The point is that in English the pronoun "He" is used when talking about God.
German is different, the neuter "das" (="the) can refer to a male or female in some cases. It's an issue of language and semantics if you simply it.



The problem being we use "it" to refer to things, not people or persons, and God is not a thing. So "it" is inadequate. (it's also not appropriate for Fetuses either as fetuses are people as well.)

Traditionally God is considered male, due to reproductive concepts. Jesus is Male, thus he is God the Son. God the Father is called that as such because He conceived the Son (via the Holy Spirit) with Mary the Theotokos the Mother of God. But these are matter of function rather than biological sex and gender, because God has neither.

More modernly, and especially in Protestant circles, God is recognized as having neither Sex nor Gender, and thus God takes on an agender concept, with God's and God'self being the appropriate pronouns, in most academic discourse.


Sheist is also a nonsensical term. Because Theist is derived from the Greek word Theos meaning God. The female version of that is Thea. Theist is a gender neutral term.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Andromeda Islands
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Founded: Antiquity
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Andromeda Islands » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:08 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Andromeda Islands wrote:Tarsonis,
That you for taking the time in your responses. It would take me a very long time to respond point by point, but I will take one point about the gender of "God". When we don't know the gender of a fetus we call "it" an "it". That doesn't indicate that the fetus doesn't have gender. When we use the term "God", that implies a masculine gender, and the term "it" would be a more accurate term to indicate a genderless (albeit personal) creator. The point is that in English the pronoun "He" is used when talking about God.
German is different, the neuter "das" (="the) can refer to a male or female in some cases. It's an issue of language and semantics if you simply it.



The problem being we use "it" to refer to things, not people or persons, and God is not a thing. So "it" is inadequate. (it's also not appropriate for Fetuses either as fetuses are people as well.)

Traditionally God is considered male, due to reproductive concepts. Jesus is Male, thus he is God the Son. God the Father is called that as such because He conceived the Son (via the Holy Spirit) with Mary the Theotokos the Mother of God. But these are matter of function rather than biological sex and gender, because God has neither.

More modernly, and especially in Protestant circles, God is recognized as having neither Sex nor Gender, and thus God takes on an agender concept, with God's and God'self being the appropriate pronouns, in most academic discourse.


Sheist is also a nonsensical term. Because Theist is derived from the Greek word Theos meaning God. The female version of that is Thea. Theist is a gender neutral term.
So if a woman is pregnant how would you refer to her fetus, as in the sentence, "Do you think __ will be a boy or girl"... how does one fill in the blank? "he or she"? or s/he? or some"thing" else. something can refer to anything and someone is something... As in do you believe in anything, something, or nothing, the object could be human as well as not.
Last edited by Andromeda Islands on Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
A wise man once said nothing.

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:14 am

One can use the word 'they,' as can be generally polite when referring or talking about someone you don't the gender (or sex, or whichever one is the proper one) of.
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Andromeda Islands
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Founded: Antiquity
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Andromeda Islands » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:22 am

Lord Dominator wrote:One can use the word 'they,' as can be generally polite when referring or talking about someone you don't the gender (or sex, or whichever one is the proper one) of.

True, or if one has one daughter named Sue and only a son named Tim and since you are obliged to keep what they did confidential.
"I have a child who was in prison.... "they" did such and such"
A wise man once said nothing.

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GnosticChristian
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Posts: 108
Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby GnosticChristian » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:39 am

Andromeda Islands wrote:"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/paine/aor/aor03.htm


You are thinking like a Gnostic Christian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUwdlENVcYg

Regards
DL

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GnosticChristian
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Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby GnosticChristian » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:42 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
GnosticChristian wrote:
Do you agree with the logic or not, and are you a natural creature or something else?

Regards
DL

I do not agree with the logic quite obviously. I am a natural creature only in the sense that I am made of meat.


And the rest of you is un-natural. Ok.

So you do not think that nurturing has anything to do with what you are. Ok.

Regards
DL
Last edited by GnosticChristian on Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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GnosticChristian
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Ex-Nation

Postby GnosticChristian » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:49 am

Angleter wrote:
GnosticChristian wrote:
To think that a God would close the gates of heaven by condemning all of creation unjustly is beyond foolish.

Do try to get out of supernaturalstupid thinking and wonder who would be more likely to demand a human sacrifice to forgive anyone. Satan or God?

A moral man will say Satan. Stop following Satan.

Regards
DL


First you said that it was unjust that someone else should take the punishment for a rapist. Now you're talking about Hitler being society's fault. One moment you're for personal responsibility for sin, and the next you're not.



I am all for taking responsibility for actions. You are the one who is having another suffer for what you are responsible for as you have accepted a scapegoat.

Only by twisting what I said of God into what I say of humans have you reached the conclusions you put here.

I see that quite a bit from some theist hypocrites.

What do you want to talk about?

Your imaginary God who should be a universalist or humans that cannot be?

Regards
DL

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GnosticChristian
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Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby GnosticChristian » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:55 am

Tarsonis wrote:[

I’ve also noticed that you keep dodging my critiques, refusing to answer. Is your belief so inadequate that you can’t even be bothered to defend it?


I know when my interlocutor is a worthless debater who always attacks the messengers while ignoring the messages.

That is you, and you show the size of your mind.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

See what you have made me do? Lower myself to your level.

Change your immature small minded ways or just go away. I do not have the time or inclination to chat with your puny minded ilk.

Regards
DL

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GnosticChristian
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Ex-Nation

Postby GnosticChristian » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:00 am

Tarsonis wrote:
GnosticChristian wrote:
That is based on Genesis and man created in God's image.

Do you see A & E, innocent, ignorant and not even able to know that they are naked, quite stupid, as being in God's image?

Strange if you do given that God himself said and I adlib, they had to eat of the tree of all knowledge before they, became as Gods in the knowing of good and evil and having their eyes opened.

Regards
DL


The Imago Dei refers to being made in the form of God, not having the same qualities of God. God’s plan was known before the dawn of Creation. We know God has no physical form, save Christ who became man. Therefore when we say we are made in the Image of God, we’re saying we are made in the image of Christ.

You’re right that having our eyes opened, knowing of good and evil makes us like God, but in many ways that was a burden, not liberty. For what creature can bare the responsibility of God?


If you are not up to it, that is you just showing that you are not one of the fittest and have stopped evolving.

That is why you have settled for supernaturalstupid thinking instead of reality.

A man without a burden will see his mental muscle go into atrophy and that is what you have allowed.

You say Jesus is God. I say Thor is. Prove me wrong.

Regards
DL

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GnosticChristian
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Founded: Jan 05, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby GnosticChristian » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:06 am

Stonok wrote:
GnosticChristian wrote:You see god as some guy in the sky.

I see God the way reality is.

That's not a given. Christians speak and depict God as a man in the sky because it's the only thing we can truly comprehend. I think all Christians know at at least a basic level that God the Father is an invisible, all powerful energy, and little is known of his appearance is known apart from that. Indeed some Christians make the mistake of truly believing that The Father is a man or a woman, or is White or Black, or so forth, that's not because Scripture or any Ecclesiastical authority taught them that, it's just because those individuals took the paintings and allegories too seriously or misinterpreting Genesis.


You sell people short on what they can comprehend. That is a con man's condescending trick who will say, ---- You cannot understand but just trust me as I pick you pocket.

The Bible teaches one to start ones spiritual journey from the bottom i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born Sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are One. This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from wait stage , (where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities), graduates to Vishishta Adwait (a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/ fraction of Him) and finally reached to the Adwait stage ( a stage when he merges himself with that infinite conciousness.)

The lying preachers have hidden this message, but I see it in scriptures and that is why I quote one of the Jesus’. The moral one.

Regards
DL

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GnosticChristian
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Ex-Nation

Postby GnosticChristian » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:08 am

Tarsonis wrote:[
David Cross? A stand up commedian? That’s seriously the person you’re citing as a source?


Again, you childishly attack the messenger and ignore his message, which is pure truth.

Again, get better or get lost.

Regards
DL

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Camelone
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Postby Camelone » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:11 am

GnosticChristian can you please attempt to layoff the amount of separate posts it is getting really annoying. Try to condense them to individual posts please.
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GnosticChristian
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Ex-Nation

Postby GnosticChristian » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:19 am

Tarsonis wrote:[

Both our religious premises require that God be knowable to be valid. I


Oh my. Something I can speak to.

Your statement is true.

You being in a supernaturalstupid mindset, and knowing that you cannot know anything of that realm, can know nothing.

Me, being in the natural world, can know just as all animals know what the ideal of their kind is thanks to their instincts. That of course means seeing the word "God" defined as the best rules and laws one can live by.

I can in my normal and natural thinking, while you, being an idol worshiper in supernaturalstupid thinking mode can likely not do so.

Think natural and listen to that link again, for the first time.

The God of an ant is an ant. The God of a lion is a lion. The God of a man is a man.

Regards
DL

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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:19 am

Andromeda Islands wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

The problem being we use "it" to refer to things, not people or persons, and God is not a thing. So "it" is inadequate. (it's also not appropriate for Fetuses either as fetuses are people as well.)

Traditionally God is considered male, due to reproductive concepts. Jesus is Male, thus he is God the Son. God the Father is called that as such because He conceived the Son (via the Holy Spirit) with Mary the Theotokos the Mother of God. But these are matter of function rather than biological sex and gender, because God has neither.

More modernly, and especially in Protestant circles, God is recognized as having neither Sex nor Gender, and thus God takes on an agender concept, with God's and God'self being the appropriate pronouns, in most academic discourse.


Sheist is also a nonsensical term. Because Theist is derived from the Greek word Theos meaning God. The female version of that is Thea. Theist is a gender neutral term.
So if a woman is pregnant how would you refer to her fetus, as in the sentence, "Do you think __ will be a boy or girl"... how does one fill in the blank? "he or she"? or s/he? or some"thing" else. something can refer to anything and someone is something... As in do you believe in anything, something, or nothing, the object could be human as well as not.


"they."

They can be singular or plural depending on context. Common parlance with reference to fetus is "it," but i realized in writing that post that "it" is in appropriate as it dehumanizes the fetus. I'll be switch to they in the future.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:21 am

GnosticChristian wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:[

I’ve also noticed that you keep dodging my critiques, refusing to answer. Is your belief so inadequate that you can’t even be bothered to defend it?


I know when my interlocutor is a worthless debater who always attacks the messengers while ignoring the messages.

That is you, and you show the size of your mind.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

See what you have made me do? Lower myself to your level.

Change your immature small minded ways or just go away. I do not have the time or inclination to chat with your puny minded ilk.

Regards
DL


GnosticChristian wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
The Imago Dei refers to being made in the form of God, not having the same qualities of God. God’s plan was known before the dawn of Creation. We know God has no physical form, save Christ who became man. Therefore when we say we are made in the Image of God, we’re saying we are made in the image of Christ.

You’re right that having our eyes opened, knowing of good and evil makes us like God, but in many ways that was a burden, not liberty. For what creature can bare the responsibility of God?


If you are not up to it, that is you just showing that you are not one of the fittest and have stopped evolving.

That is why you have settled for supernaturalstupid thinking instead of reality.

A man without a burden will see his mental muscle go into atrophy and that is what you have allowed.

You say Jesus is God. I say Thor is. Prove me wrong.

Regards
DL


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Andromeda Islands
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Andromeda Islands » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:20 pm

Maybe it's time for me to leave this thread, it is getting extremely tedious, for a lot of reasons, which I can't get into in detail, but which are somewhat self-evident.
If the direction of this thread changes in a way to my liking, I may or may not come back.

I have no power over any thread I create. I can't lock it or delete it if it goes off topic, if it ends up in a flame war, there is nothing that I can do. If I don't follow the rules to the letter, it will be locked anyway but a moderator.
So, it's time to take a long break, perhaps.
A wise man once said nothing.

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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:19 pm

Andromeda Islands wrote:Maybe it's time for me to leave this thread, it is getting extremely tedious, for a lot of reasons, which I can't get into in detail, but which are somewhat self-evident.
If the direction of this thread changes in a way to my liking, I may or may not come back.


GnosticChristian's trollspam isn't the normal routine for the thread; you may find that things return to normal over the next three days.

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The Blaatschapen
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Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:44 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Andromeda Islands wrote:Maybe it's time for me to leave this thread, it is getting extremely tedious, for a lot of reasons, which I can't get into in detail, but which are somewhat self-evident.
If the direction of this thread changes in a way to my liking, I may or may not come back.


GnosticChristian's trollspam isn't the normal routine for the thread; you may find that things return to normal over the next three days.


Are you trollnaming? :p
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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:29 pm

The blAAtschApen wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
GnosticChristian's trollspam isn't the normal routine for the thread; you may find that things return to normal over the next three days.


Are you trollnaming? :p


Is he allowed to do that?
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Auristania
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Auristania » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:02 pm

Minzerland II wrote:Doesn’t the Catholic Church affirm a literal Adam, Eve and Fall, Tarsonis? Correct me if I am wrong.

All Romanists and many Prods believe that the FALL = Original Sin is a real Thing that happened in the Long Ago Time.

Most believe Genesis is a parable to express the FALL. Few believe it is an historical account.

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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:04 pm

Auristania wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:Doesn’t the Catholic Church affirm a literal Adam, Eve and Fall, Tarsonis? Correct me if I am wrong.

All Romanists and many Prods believe that the FALL = Original Sin is a real Thing that happened in the Long Ago Time.

Most believe Genesis is a parable to express the FALL. Few believe it is an historical account.


Thanks Max, Lord Humongus sends his regards
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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