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The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
312
36%
Eastern Orthodox
78
9%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
6
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
52
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
88
10%
Methodist
14
2%
Baptist
89
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
64
7%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
32
4%
Other Christian
130
15%
 
Total votes : 865

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:14 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:I mean, it is important to remember the difference between condemning the sin and condemning the sinner, which people seem to leave out frequently.


Does God even do that. Scriptures say he loves the sinner and hates the sin, but it is the sinner that he sends to purposeless torture and death in hell.

The sinner is still the one who is choosing to do the sin.
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GnosticChristian
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Postby GnosticChristian » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:04 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
GnosticChristian wrote:
Does God even do that. Scriptures say he loves the sinner and hates the sin, but it is the sinner that he sends to purposeless torture and death in hell.

The sinner is still the one who is choosing to do the sin.


We are all sinners say the scriptures so should all end in hell. That is why mine is a universalist creed that has tied righteousness to equality and posit a heaven but no hell.

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

On Righteousness

The rightousness of God is a kind of sharing along with equality. There is equality in the heaven which is stretched out in all directions and contains the entire earth in its circle. The night reveals all the stars equally. The light of the sun, which is the cause of the daytime and the father of light, God pours out from above upon the earth in equal measure to all who have power to see. For all see alike, since here is no distinction between rich and poor, people and governor, stupid and clever, female and male, free men and slaves. Even the irrational animals are not accorded any different treatment; but in just the same way God pours out from above sunlight equally upon all the animals. He establishes his justice to both good and bad by seeing that none is able to get more than his share and to deprive his neighbor, so that he has twice the light his neighbor has.

The logic trail on sinners is as follows.
Take Hitler, whom we all think would be bound for hell, but who is really guilty for making Hitler what he became?

All the hundreds and thousands who interacted with him, even when growing up, and contributed to helping make him what he became. Right?

Now apply that logic to all of us and note how we all deserve hell for contributing to all the evil in the world.

Further, evolution says that we all must compete and thus create losers to those competitions who would think that evil has befallen them.

We cannot help but sin and for God to punish some while not punishing the rest, when we all contribute to all the sin would be unjust.

The Christian religion invented hell and it is an outright lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc


Regards
DL
Last edited by GnosticChristian on Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:08 pm

Your counter-argument to me is astounding, all I can see is you getting into the nature vs nurture debate
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GnosticChristian
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Postby GnosticChristian » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:12 pm

Angleter wrote:
GnosticChristian wrote:
Does God even do that. Scriptures say he loves the sinner and hates the sin, but it is the sinner that he sends to purposeless torture and death in hell.

I think God hates sinners. What is that line, Esau I hated even in the womb. A baby in the womb cannot have sinned.

Regards
DL


This is a bizarre argument from someone who first burst into this thread announcing that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the means by which Christ opened the gates of Heaven to humanity even though we do not merit it, is unjust.


To think that a God would close the gates of heaven by condemning all of creation unjustly is beyond foolish.

Do try to get out of supernaturalstupid thinking and wonder who would be more likely to demand a human sacrifice to forgive anyone. Satan or God?

A moral man will say Satan. Stop following Satan.

Regards
DL

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GnosticChristian
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Postby GnosticChristian » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:13 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Your counter-argument to me is astounding, all I can see is you getting into the nature vs nurture debate


Do you agree with the logic or not, and are you a natural creature or something else?

Regards
DL

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GnosticChristian
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Postby GnosticChristian » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:17 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Andsed wrote:Let me rephrase myself. Is there any part of the bible that says that homosexuality is wrong. I am asking because of one of the more common reason I have seen someone opposing homosexuality use is religion.

Homosexuality, gender non-conformity, and a few often associated sins are condemned in a list of sexual sins found in one of the Pauline epistles. Several other biblical passages condemn crossdressing, rejection of gender roles, etc, and a few biblical passages explicitly state that marriage is between a man and a woman. There's also Leviticus 18:20, but it's arguable how it applies to Christians.


He shall rule over you.

Do you agree that women are to kowtow to men? Is that why Christianity treat women as second class citizens with their misogynous teachings?

What is more important. People having loving partners for life or their consenting adult sexual preferences?

Would you deny people love due to sexual preferences?

Regards
DL

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Andromeda Islands
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Postby Andromeda Islands » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:33 pm

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/paine/aor/aor03.htm
A wise man once said nothing.

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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:34 pm

I must say it has been the greatest pleasure to get to know many of you over the years, and I will cherish the memories made on this thread (series of them), and NSG as a whole. Due to recent events I unfortunately will not be choosing to stay on NSG for the time being if at all any more. May God bless you all on your paths.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:39 pm

Benuty wrote:I must say it has been the greatest pleasure to get to know many of you over the years, and I will cherish the memories made on this thread (series of them), and NSG as a whole. Due to recent events I unfortunately will not be choosing to stay on NSG for the time being if at all any more. May God bless you all on your paths.

It's a shame to lose another NSG titan, but farewell.
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Stonok
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Postby Stonok » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:39 pm

Benuty wrote:I must say it has been the greatest pleasure to get to know many of you over the years, and I will cherish the memories made on this thread (series of them), and NSG as a whole. Due to recent events I unfortunately will not be choosing to stay on NSG for the time being if at all any more. May God bless you all on your paths.

God guide you through whatever tribulations you face.

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Minzerland II
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Postby Minzerland II » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:42 pm

Benuty wrote:I must say it has been the greatest pleasure to get to know many of you over the years, and I will cherish the memories made on this thread (series of them), and NSG as a whole. Due to recent events I unfortunately will not be choosing to stay on NSG for the time being if at all any more. May God bless you all on your paths.

Good luck then, my well wishes.
Last edited by Minzerland II on Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:01 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Your counter-argument to me is astounding, all I can see is you getting into the nature vs nurture debate


Do you agree with the logic or not, and are you a natural creature or something else?

Regards
DL

I do not agree with the logic quite obviously. I am a natural creature only in the sense that I am made of meat.
Dee Vytherov-Skollvaldr | Forest | TBH Lieutenant and Council Member | WA Vizier | Ambassador to the WA

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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:26 pm

Elenir wrote:Hi all.

I wanted to asks, what's everyone's fav bible quotes, maybe life protips and the such?

I've been trying to find some to bookmark in my bible.

I very much love the Magnificat.

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Angleter
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Postby Angleter » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:34 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:
Angleter wrote:
This is a bizarre argument from someone who first burst into this thread announcing that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the means by which Christ opened the gates of Heaven to humanity even though we do not merit it, is unjust.


To think that a God would close the gates of heaven by condemning all of creation unjustly is beyond foolish.

Do try to get out of supernaturalstupid thinking and wonder who would be more likely to demand a human sacrifice to forgive anyone. Satan or God?

A moral man will say Satan. Stop following Satan.

Regards
DL


First you said that it was unjust that someone else should take the punishment for a rapist. Now you're talking about Hitler being society's fault. One moment you're for personal responsibility for sin, and the next you're not.

The fact is we are all responsible for our own decisions and our own sins, and this is why none of us merit salvation, and why any of us going to Heaven would, without the Cross, have been repugnant to the idea of justice. It is only because of Christ's atonement that, by God's grace and mercy, all of us have been offered the chance to be saved. It's up to us to accept that offer, or reject that offer and face justice as it would otherwise have been.

And frankly, I shan't take any lessons on justice from someone espousing some form of antinomian universalism. I could also do without the insults to my intelligence and the accusations of Satanism, for that matter.

Andromeda Islands wrote:"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/paine/aor/aor03.htm


The words of someone with a supreme confidence in their own mind.

Benuty wrote:I must say it has been the greatest pleasure to get to know many of you over the years, and I will cherish the memories made on this thread (series of them), and NSG as a whole. Due to recent events I unfortunately will not be choosing to stay on NSG for the time being if at all any more. May God bless you all on your paths.


All the best!
Last edited by Angleter on Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:41 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:"I'm honestly not sure what your point is here. "

Which is why I did not bother writing a wall of text.


So you deliberately decided not to adequately make your statement clear and you can’t be bothered to explain your point? You’re really starting to reak of bullshitting here.



You see god as some guy in the sky.

I see God the way reality is.

You don’t have any idea what I believe, what the Church teaches.

And you see what you want to see.


https://imgur.com/9eoBEyo

I note you attacked the messengers I put, the links I put, but ignored the messages except for the usual out of context cop out phrase used extensively by many Christians without showing any right, to you, context. You win that debate. :lol2:

Regards
DL


The “message” is only as authoritative as the source. Your sources are mostly charlatans who are widely regarded as charlatans. If these are the people you hold up as messengers, then it is clear your message is false.

That’s not even a religious stance, that’s intellectualism 101.



I’ve also noticed that you keep dodging my critiques, refusing to answer. Is your belief so inadequate that you can’t even be bothered to defend it?
Last edited by Tarsonis on Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:47 pm

Benuty wrote:I must say it has been the greatest pleasure to get to know many of you over the years, and I will cherish the memories made on this thread (series of them), and NSG as a whole. Due to recent events I unfortunately will not be choosing to stay on NSG for the time being if at all any more. May God bless you all on your paths.

And may God bless you
Dee Vytherov-Skollvaldr | Forest | TBH Lieutenant and Council Member | WA Vizier | Ambassador to the WA

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:48 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
All Christianity teaches of a spark of divinity. The Imago Dei, and the nature of the Soul are all pursuant to this concept.


That is based on Genesis and man created in God's image.

Do you see A & E, innocent, ignorant and not even able to know that they are naked, quite stupid, as being in God's image?

Strange if you do given that God himself said and I adlib, they had to eat of the tree of all knowledge before they, became as Gods in the knowing of good and evil and having their eyes opened.

Regards
DL


The Imago Dei refers to being made in the form of God, not having the same qualities of God. God’s plan was known before the dawn of Creation. We know God has no physical form, save Christ who became man. Therefore when we say we are made in the Image of God, we’re saying we are made in the image of Christ.

You’re right that having our eyes opened, knowing of good and evil makes us like God, but in many ways that was a burden, not liberty. For what creature can bare the responsibility of God?
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Stonok
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Postby Stonok » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:50 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:You see god as some guy in the sky.

I see God the way reality is.

That's not a given. Christians speak and depict God as a man in the sky because it's the only thing we can truly comprehend. I think all Christians know at at least a basic level that God the Father is an invisible, all powerful energy, and little is known of his appearance is known apart from that. Indeed some Christians make the mistake of truly believing that The Father is a man or a woman, or is White or Black, or so forth, that's not because Scripture or any Ecclesiastical authority taught them that, it's just because those individuals took the paintings and allegories too seriously or misinterpreting Genesis.
Last edited by Stonok on Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:53 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:
Andromeda Islands wrote:If you take everything in the Bible literally, how do you reconcile the contradictions?

If you don't everything in the Bible literally, how is one to determine what is literal and what is not?

As far as "cherry picking" goes everything in the Bible out of context, unless one were to read the entire Bible in its original languages; do I need to read and fully every understand every word to avoid eternal damnation?

The trinity (the Divine literally existing in three persons) which isn't explicitly taught in the Bible, is not logical, and is a dogma derived from extra-biblical ideas, is not easily explained (and I don't think that it can be), nor is it strictly speaking "monotheistic*.

*whether it is monotheistic or not may be a moot point, at least in my mind


What if I were to quote John 21:25, would that be cherry picking?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWOqHHE4upY

Regards
DL


David Cross? A stand up commedian? That’s seriously the person you’re citing as a source?
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Stonok
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Postby Stonok » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:54 pm

Tarsonis wrote:Therefore when we say we are made in the Image of God, we’re saying we are made in the image of Christ. ?

I've heard many theologians also say that when ancient writings say "in the image of" they also mean having similar characteristics in terms of personality. As in, mankind was originally made to be wise, and forgiving, and so forth, and thus was "made in the image of God".

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:02 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:
Hakons wrote:[

Spirituality and religion are incredibly natural. To be even more blunt, in the history of humanity and civilization, widespread atheism as we see in modern Western society (though still a minority) is decidedly unnatural and without historical precedent.


You are not reading history the way I do.


You mean he’s reading it correctly?


This shows how the ancient intelligentsia thought and it is more agnostic/atheist than theist.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

We are all born atheist with a touch of agnostic and that is why almost all of us end in following our parents religion, whatever it is, instead of seeking a real and true God.

What is natural is our tribalism and we tend to stay in our familiar tribes/religions.

Regards
DL


But the true God cannot be sought right? There is an inherent contradiction in your argument. You accuse us of believing in nothing but speculations. We are speculating because

1. God is unknowable.
2.. If God is unknowable then all we think we know about God is nothing but speculation.
3. If it’s speculation, it’s not reliable.

Therefor nothing we say about God is reliable


Now, you claim that you know the true God by seeing yourself, but your still bound by that original syllogism. What you see as God via yourself, is nothing but speculation as well, because God is unknowable, thus nothing can be known.


Both our religious premises require that God be knowable to be valid. I
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Tarsonis
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Founded: Sep 20, 2017
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:04 pm

GnosticChristian wrote:
Elenir wrote:Hi all.

I wanted to asks, what's everyone's fav bible quotes, maybe life protips and the such?

I've been trying to find some to bookmark in my bible.


How about the 3 I use to explain why I call my God I am.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that lazy Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL



You mean the three I’ve already shown have been pulled out of context to say something different? Oh wait you ignored that part rather than debate it.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Tarsonis
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Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tarsonis » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:19 pm

Stonok wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:Therefore when we say we are made in the Image of God, we’re saying we are made in the image of Christ. ?

I've heard many theologians also say that when ancient writings say "in the image of" they also mean having similar characteristics in terms of personality. As in, mankind was originally made to be wise, and forgiving, and so forth, and thus was "made in the image of God".


It is a somewhat poetic of saying “be a reflection of” this is true but humans are so far removed from the level God that to suggest that humans have the same personality characteristics of God is just not accurate. Part of the incarnation is God experiancing Human experience. Christ had to experience the human life.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Stonok
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Founded: Nov 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Stonok » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:27 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Stonok wrote:I've heard many theologians also say that when ancient writings say "in the image of" they also mean having similar characteristics in terms of personality. As in, mankind was originally made to be wise, and forgiving, and so forth, and thus was "made in the image of God".


It is a somewhat poetic of saying “be a reflection of” this is true but humans are so far removed from the level God that to suggest that humans have the same personality characteristics of God is just not accurate. Part of the incarnation is God experiancing Human experience. Christ had to experience the human life.

Fair point, but you do have to remember that Adam was created in perfect communion with God and before his fall was probably far beyond the level we imagine humans as capable of. It also doesn't quite make sense to say it means "in the image of Christ" since Christ had no physical body at the time either.
Last edited by Stonok on Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Andromeda Islands
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Postby Andromeda Islands » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:57 pm

There is nothing "just" about eternal punishment for finite sin.
What purpose would there be for such punishment?
If someone is being good only from fear, they are being good for the wrong reason.
Why would an all wise, all loving creator create beings that are totally evil, in the first place?
Is this creator all merciful or not?
The problem of evil is not easily explained or understood.
The problem is evil, the solution is to be good.
It could be that simple.

As Nietzsche put it,

"But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the
impulse to punish is powerful!"
A wise man once said nothing.

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