Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:29 pmby Andromeda Islands
(I didn't quote your response in its entirety because that isn't necessary, because you did answer all my questions; I can get back to the trinity,
at a later time, but I could tell you why it is illogical, but I don't want to get into that yet, because I tend to go in endless circles in debating with Trinitarians, that question, certainly if, as you concede it is complex (I won't argue with that), it might be a dead end discussion.
Certainly the ethics of the Bible would be something that could be taken literally, that should be the heart of what Christianity is about and certainly they are the plain teachings. Anything, beyond ethics, seems less important. One doesn't even need to believe in a god or goddess to believe in ethics. What about the atonement? One's view on that may depend on one's view of the trinity.
As far as John 21:25 goes, I mentioned that verse because it suggests that perhaps truth is infinite. Infinity is as easy to grasp conceptually as 1-2-3.
But "god" and "infinity" are not necessarily equivalent. To prove or disprove god could be tedious, a discussion on that could even be as tedious as a discussion on the trinity, and maybe even more so... It has been an endless ongoing debate... I think it misses the point, do I need to believe in "god" or "goddess" to be an ethical person? That, would be all that is needed to "get to heaven". Part of being ethical may include education .. and that also may include education on religions, hence my interest.
Beauty is truth, truth beauty, that is all we need to know, because if we know this we have an irresistible desire to learn more and more... similar perhaps to the "I" in "T.U.L.I.P" PART ONE OF TWO
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:33 pmby Andromeda Islands
PART TWO OF TWO
183. Not to commit any sin, to do good, and to purify one's mind, that is the teaching of (all) the Awakened.
from:
CHAPTER XIV.
THE BUDDHA (THE AWAKENED).
edit: from The Dhammapada
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:07 pmby The National Salvation Front for Russia
What are some must-read texts if I want to become baptized into the Orthodox Church? I'm not even sure what iteration of the bible is used, such are the drawbacks of an atheist upbringing.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:22 pmby Kowani
GnosticChristian wrote:That is why even the atheists are starting up churches. To give their kids a place of fellowship so that they do not end in seeking out the immoral mainstream religions and churches.
Regards
DL
No, no we are very much not.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:06 pmby Hakons
Stonok wrote:Finally broke out of my shell and sung in the congregational hymns at church today. I didn't think I missed out on much by not singing but it does give you a nice feeling. Weird how that works.
Singing is one of the best parts of Church, in my opinion. Always be sure to focus on the theological message of the hymn, and search for / recommend hymns that contribute to theological understanding. As an example I've given before, a
hymn helped me understand the Eucharist.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:08 pmby Andromeda Islands
There's also this:
https://www.economist.com/erasmus/2018/ ... ithout-godAlso in the US are a number of organizations like the Freedom from religion group (Ron Reagan)
The American Humanists,
and, of course
https://www.atheists.org(392,000 members and supporters)
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:09 pmby Hakons
The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:What are some must-read texts if I want to become baptized into the Orthodox Church? I'm not even sure what iteration of the bible is used, such are the drawbacks of an atheist upbringing.
The Bible
In all seriousness, reading Scripture is necessary to truly understand Orthodoxy. Beyond that, rather than getting a reading list together, I would try to find an Orthodox Church to attend. Reading about Orthodoxy is one thing, but experiencing it as it is practiced is what being part of a Church is about.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:11 pmby Hakons
Those aren't Churches, but organizations, often political organizations. AARP is also an organization, but they also aren't a Church.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:15 pmby Tarsonis
The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:What are some must-read texts if I want to become baptized into the Orthodox Church? I'm not even sure what iteration of the bible is used, such are the drawbacks of an atheist upbringing.
Google the works of Dumitru Stăniloae and read anything with Orthodox in the title .
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:18 pmby Northern Davincia
GnosticChristian wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:If Jesus were not 100% human, His sacrifice means nothing (or significantly less) to mortal men. What is divine cannot truly die.
If Jesus were not 100% God, then scripture misleads us, which cannot be the case. The dual natures of Christ are a mystery that we cannot easily comprehend.
If a mystery, unknowable and unfathomable as scriptures indicate, then nothing can be known of God, let alone that he has three heads. Anything said of God becomes speculative nonsense.
Regards
DL
Are you suggesting that a being of infinite wisdom and power is easily knowable? God has properties that we cannot understand. We ascertain the qualities (revealed in scripture) that bring us closer to Him.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:27 pmby Andromeda Islands
Northern Davincia wrote:GnosticChristian wrote:If a mystery, unknowable and unfathomable as scriptures indicate, then nothing can be known of God, let alone that he has three heads. Anything said of God becomes speculative nonsense.
Regards
DL
Are you suggesting that a being of infinite wisdom and power is easily knowable? God has properties
that we cannot understand. We ascertain the qualities (revealed in scripture) that bring us closer to Him.
Many people would regard believing in things that one can not understand as superstition.
I agree that such a belief is speculative, and subjective as well.
Although, as I pointed out earlier, a belief in religion, per se, is not necessary.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:33 pmby The National Salvation Front for Russia
Tarsonis wrote:The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:What are some must-read texts if I want to become baptized into the Orthodox Church? I'm not even sure what iteration of the bible is used, such are the drawbacks of an atheist upbringing.
Google the works of Dumitru Stăniloae and read anything with Orthodox in the title .
Thanks, I'll have a look. The Orthodox Way looks good as a starting point.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:34 pmby Tarsonis
The National Salvation Front for Russia wrote:Tarsonis wrote:Google the works of Dumitru Stăniloae and read anything with Orthodox in the title .
Thanks, I'll have a look. The Orthodox Way looks good as a starting point.
If I didn’t believe in the See of Rome, he’d have had me to concert to Orthodoxy in a heartbeat
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:37 pmby Northern Davincia
Andromeda Islands wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:Are you suggesting that a being of infinite wisdom and power is easily knowable? God has properties
that we cannot understand. We ascertain the qualities (revealed in scripture) that bring us closer to Him.
Many people would regard believing in things that one can not understand as superstition.
I agree that such a belief is speculative, and subjective as well.
Although, as I pointed out earlier, a belief in religion, per se, is not necessary.
There is much in the universe that we do not, or cannot, understand.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:37 pmby Hakons
Andromeda Islands wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:Are you suggesting that a being of infinite wisdom and power is easily knowable? God has properties
that we cannot understand. We ascertain the qualities (revealed in scripture) that bring us closer to Him.
Many people would regard believing in things that one can not understand as superstition.
I agree that such a belief is speculative, and subjective as well.
Although, as I pointed out earlier, a belief in religion, per se, is not necessary.
We don't understand genetics all to well. We know what certain genetic proteins relate to, but we don't know
how they do that. Now, is genetics superstition? Truly, it would be quite superstitious to think we know something entirely, without any room for the unknown!
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:38 pmby The National Salvation Front for Russia
Tarsonis wrote:If I didn’t believe in the See of Rome, he’d have had me to concert to Orthodoxy in a heartbeat
That's quite a feat, I'll definitely check his works out.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:43 pmby Andromeda Islands
Hakons wrote:Andromeda Islands wrote:Many people would regard believing in things that one can not understand as superstition.
I agree that such a belief is speculative, and subjective as well.
Although, as I pointed out earlier, a belief in religion, per se, is not necessary.
We don't understand genetics all to well. We know what certain genetic proteins relate to, but we don't know
how they do that. Now, is genetics superstition? Truly, it would be quite superstitious to think we know something entirely, without any room for the unknown!
Is their scientific evidence for anything spiritual? Science doesn't have all the answers, but it is based on empirical evidence, can you say the same thing about religion? To put it more bluntly spirituality isn't natural.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:47 pmby Northern Davincia
Andromeda Islands wrote:Hakons wrote:We don't understand genetics all to well. We know what certain genetic proteins relate to, but we don't know
how they do that. Now, is genetics superstition? Truly, it would be quite superstitious to think we know something entirely, without any room for the unknown!
Is their scientific evidence for anything spiritual? Science doesn't have all the answers, but it is based on empirical evidence, can you say the same thing about religion? To put it more bluntly spirituality isn't natural.
Spirituality, in reference to human attraction to the spiritual, is natural. There are a handful of miracles with scientific backing.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:48 pmby Andromeda Islands
Northern Davincia wrote:Andromeda Islands wrote:Many people would regard believing in things that one can not understand as superstition.
I agree that such a belief is speculative, and subjective as well.
Although, as I pointed out earlier, a belief in religion, per se, is not necessary.
There is much in the universe that we do not, or cannot, understand.
Yes, for example, extraterrestrial life, if there is no evidence for it, why should I believe in it?
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:51 pmby Andromeda Islands
Northern Davincia wrote:Andromeda Islands wrote:Is their scientific evidence for anything spiritual? Science doesn't have all the answers, but it is based on empirical evidence, can you say the same thing about religion? To put it more bluntly spirituality isn't natural.
Spirituality, in reference to human attraction to the spiritual, is natural. There are a handful of miracles with scientific backing.
Yes, humans can have an attraction to religion and can have a concept of a deity, but does that make either of those things true?
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:54 pmby Hakons
Andromeda Islands wrote:Hakons wrote:We don't understand genetics all to well. We know what certain genetic proteins relate to, but we don't know
how they do that. Now, is genetics superstition? Truly, it would be quite superstitious to think we know something entirely, without any room for the unknown!
Is their scientific evidence for anything spiritual? Science doesn't have all the answers, but it is based on empirical evidence, can you say the same thing about religion? To put it more bluntly spirituality isn't natural.
Spirituality and religion are incredibly natural. To be even more blunt, in the history of humanity and civilization, widespread atheism as we see in modern Western society (though still a minority) is decidedly unnatural and without historical precedent.
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:54 pmby Andromeda Islands
When I say "spirituality isn't natural" the point is that the spiritual realm (if it exists) is different from the natural realm and if the two are separate, how would there be evidence for the spiritual realm in the natural realm?
Posted:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:56 pmby Northern Davincia
Andromeda Islands wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:There is much in the universe that we do not, or cannot, understand.
Yes, for example, extraterrestrial life, if there is no evidence for it, why should I believe in it?
There is historical evidence for Christ.
Andromeda Islands wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:Spirituality, in reference to human attraction to the spiritual, is natural. There are a handful of miracles with scientific backing.
Yes, humans can have an attraction to religion and can have a concept of a deity, but does that make either of those things true?
I don't think anyone would argue that it does.