The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[GnosticChristian]

Christ's relationships to us as mediator is far more than just the sacrifice on the Cross. By virture of his dual nature, being both %100 Human and %100 divine, he is the nexus point, joining humanity and God in an eternal communion. Just as we have fellowship with Christ through the Apostles, we have natural communion with God through Christ. Christ atoned for our sins through the Cross,yes, but through his mere existence he deifies mankind, elevating it from a dirt sniffing animal, to a species with eyes elevated towards God. Our reconciliation to God is far more complex than a mere payment of Flesh.

I see that you have to corrupt math to make your ridiculous Trinity garbage to work.

One cannot be more than 100% anything except to liars with poor math skills. That is why Constantine had to force this idiocy down the churches throat when he bought the church.

Regards
DL

[Luminesa]

Sooooooo GC? Why do you call yourself a Christian?

I do not and would not lower my standards of excellence and morality to do so.
That aside.

I call myself a Gnostic Christian because they were the only good Christians, as some put it.

Mostly it is because Gnostic Christianity is the best overall ideology/theology/philosophy that I have found. We are a universalist creed that cannot and do not discriminate against women and gays without a just cause the way the mainstream Christian and Muslim creeds do.

We beat them hands down on morals as well which explains why they could only grow their religions with inquisitions and jihads as they did not have the good moral tenets to convert with otherwise.

They are slave wanting creeds while we are a free thinker wanting religion as free thinkers are the movers and shakers of humanity.

Regards
DL

...Aaaaaand none of this has anything to do with Gnosticism. Let me tell you about Gnosticism. Gnosticism generally denied the flesh and in fact said all material things were evil, including sex (such as with Manichaenism), denied the Trinitarian God (Marcionism), was possibly against ritual sex of any kind (Nicolaism), and many times had no distinct or well-known ideology or doctrine (Dositheans). Your rant about 'morals' means very little when most Gnostic sects were either far stricter than your average Christian sect, as St. Augustine records in his experiences as a follower of Mani, or they had basically no beliefs and mostly fell apart. They have done nothing to 'move' and 'shake' humanity, but rather the Chalcedonian faiths (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) carried Western Civilization through the Dark Ages, Middle Ages, and into our current age. What you claim to believe is nothing more than your idealized, shallow, uninformed view of what the idea of 'Gnosticism' is. I believe the church you are looking for is the Universalist Unitarian Church, which fits more of the 'universalist' creed you're looking for. But I would not speak of 'standards of excellence' when your interpretation of Gnosticism would have had you shunned by most actual Gnostics.

[Luminesa]

Being born isn't bad, but all of us are born with the stain of original sin because of our first parents' mistakes.

The original sin concept did not exist till Christianity decided that consuming from the tree of knowledge of all things, and as God said, they became like God's in the knowing of good and evil was somehow wrong, while at the same time, singing that Adam's was a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

Christian thinking belies your foolish view and so do these quotes.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Can you get past all those contradictions, or will you just ignore them all?

Regards
DL

...Fun fact. Gnosticism believes the body is inherently evil and must be shunned at all times, going further than even Presbyterianism in declaring the body sinful, Christianity (which includes Presbyterianism obviously) believes that the body is capable of being saved. You have no room to talk about contradictions when your entire position contradicts everything about your religion.

[Luminesa]

Christ's relationships to us as mediator is far more than just the sacrifice on the Cross. By virture of his dual nature, being both %100 Human and %100 divine, he is the nexus point, joining humanity and God in an eternal communion. Just as we have fellowship with Christ through the Apostles, we have natural communion with God through Christ. Christ atoned for our sins through the Cross,yes, but through his mere existence he deifies mankind, elevating it from a dirt sniffing animal, to a species with eyes elevated towards God. Our reconciliation to God is far more complex than a mere payment of Flesh.

I see that you have to corrupt math to make your ridiculous Trinity garbage to work.

One cannot be more than 100% anything except to liars with poor math skills. That is why Constantine had to force this idiocy down the churches throat when he bought the church.

Regards
DL

Aaaaaand you still have told us nothing about why Gnosticism is so great. Fun. "But it doesn't make sense!" is not a retort, either.

[GnosticChristian]

I do not and would not lower my standards of excellence and morality to do so.
That aside.

I call myself a Gnostic Christian because they were the only good Christians, as some put it.

Mostly it is because Gnostic Christianity is the best overall ideology/theology/philosophy that I have found. We are a universalist creed that cannot and do not discriminate against women and gays without a just cause the way the mainstream Christian and Muslim creeds do.

We beat them hands down on morals as well which explains why they could only grow their religions with inquisitions and jihads as they did not have the good moral tenets to convert with otherwise.

They are slave wanting creeds while we are a free thinker wanting religion as free thinkers are the movers and shakers of humanity.

Regards
DL

...Aaaaaand none of this has anything to do with Gnosticism. Let me tell you about Gnosticism. Gnosticism generally denied the flesh and in fact said all material things were evil, including sex (such as with Manichaenism), denied the Trinitarian God (Marcionism), was possibly against ritual sex of any kind (Nicolaism), and many times had no distinct or well-known ideology or doctrine (Dositheans). Your rant about 'morals' means very little when most Gnostic sects were either far stricter than your average Christian sect, as St. Augustine records in his experiences as a follower of Mani, or they had basically no beliefs and mostly fell apart. They have done nothing to 'move' and 'shake' humanity, but rather the Chalcedonian faiths (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) carried Western Civilization through the Dark Ages, Middle Ages, and into our current age. What you claim to believe is nothing more than your idealized, shallow, uninformed view of what the idea of 'Gnosticism' is. I believe the church you are looking for is the Universalist Unitarian Church, which fits more of the 'universalist' creed you're looking for. But I would not speak of 'standards of excellence' when your interpretation of Gnosticism would have had you shunned by most actual Gnostics.

Better to ask me what I think rather than telling me of the lies you have swallowed that the inquisitors put out to discredit us. I will speak of matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

[GnosticChristian]

The original sin concept did not exist till Christianity decided that consuming from the tree of knowledge of all things, and as God said, they became like God's in the knowing of good and evil was somehow wrong, while at the same time, singing that Adam's was a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

Christian thinking belies your foolish view and so do these quotes.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Can you get past all those contradictions, or will you just ignore them all?

Regards
DL

...Fun fact. Gnosticism believes the body is inherently evil and must be shunned at all times, going further than even Presbyterianism in declaring the body sinful, Christianity (which includes Presbyterianism obviously) believes that the body is capable of being saved. You have no room to talk about contradictions when your entire position contradicts everything about your religion.

So instead of dealing with your corrupted theology, as compared to what the Jews had, you deflect to Gnosticism. Typical Christian hypocrisy.

I spoke to your wrong impression of us in the post just above.

Have the common decency to speak to why Christianity reversed the moral of the Jewish myth or take your hypocrisy where your interlocutor has your type of I.Q. and debating skills. That or pop up into my pay scale and do s better job.

Regards
DL

[GnosticChristian]

I see that you have to corrupt math to make your ridiculous Trinity garbage to work.

One cannot be more than 100% anything except to liars with poor math skills. That is why Constantine had to force this idiocy down the churches throat when he bought the church.

Regards
DL

Aaaaaand you still have told us nothing about why Gnosticism is so great. Fun. "But it doesn't make sense!" is not a retort, either.

You did not ask and I am always pleased to show why your Christian forefathers could only use inquisitions and violence against us as they, like today, could not do better than our moral positions on things.

Let me tell you why we call our God I am, and mean ourselves..

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that lazy Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

[Luminesa]

...Aaaaaand none of this has anything to do with Gnosticism. Let me tell you about Gnosticism. Gnosticism generally denied the flesh and in fact said all material things were evil, including sex (such as with Manichaenism), denied the Trinitarian God (Marcionism), was possibly against ritual sex of any kind (Nicolaism), and many times had no distinct or well-known ideology or doctrine (Dositheans). Your rant about 'morals' means very little when most Gnostic sects were either far stricter than your average Christian sect, as St. Augustine records in his experiences as a follower of Mani, or they had basically no beliefs and mostly fell apart. They have done nothing to 'move' and 'shake' humanity, but rather the Chalcedonian faiths (Catholicism and Orthodoxy) carried Western Civilization through the Dark Ages, Middle Ages, and into our current age. What you claim to believe is nothing more than your idealized, shallow, uninformed view of what the idea of 'Gnosticism' is. I believe the church you are looking for is the Universalist Unitarian Church, which fits more of the 'universalist' creed you're looking for. But I would not speak of 'standards of excellence' when your interpretation of Gnosticism would have had you shunned by most actual Gnostics.

Better to ask me what I think rather than telling me of the lies you have swallowed that the inquisitors put out to discredit us. I will speak of matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

> Gnostic Christian Jesus.
Uhhhhhh need I explain to you that Jesus Himself was...Jewish? What verse are you quoting in that bit? I don't think you were actually quoting any verse, in fact, because not only are you giving me absolutely no doctrine that tells me about Gnosticism, you refuse to actually explain what was incorrect about the 'Inquisitors' view of Gnosticism. Again, St. Augustine was a Gnostic at some point. He had a firsthand view of what they believed. Your view of Gnosticism is nothing more than some modern, skewed version of what the ideology actually entailed. And because you're not refuting me with any sort of coherent argument, I don't see what somehow makes Gnosticism so special.

Also, "Inquisitors"? Fam, the Vampire: The Masquerade RP is in Portal to the Multiverse. I'm in, we can use more players if you wanna make one. I actually play an Inquisitor, now that I mention it!

'Lust' and 'pride' are referred to as deadly sins, which are contrary to charity and humbleness, which John speaks of in the same letter. Lust results from a warped view of love, pride results from a warped view of the self. Remember that Jesus in the Bible calls us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

What I really want to know is: Who was "Gnostic Christian Jesus"?

[Northern Davincia]

Christ's relationships to us as mediator is far more than just the sacrifice on the Cross. By virture of his dual nature, being both %100 Human and %100 divine, he is the nexus point, joining humanity and God in an eternal communion. Just as we have fellowship with Christ through the Apostles, we have natural communion with God through Christ. Christ atoned for our sins through the Cross,yes, but through his mere existence he deifies mankind, elevating it from a dirt sniffing animal, to a species with eyes elevated towards God. Our reconciliation to God is far more complex than a mere payment of Flesh.

I see that you have to corrupt math to make your ridiculous Trinity garbage to work.

One cannot be more than 100% anything except to liars with poor math skills. That is why Constantine had to force this idiocy down the churches throat when he bought the church.

Regards
DL

If Jesus were not 100% human, His sacrifice means nothing (or significantly less) to mortal men. What is divine cannot truly die.
If Jesus were not 100% God, then scripture misleads us, which cannot be the case. The dual natures of Christ are a mystery that we cannot easily comprehend.

[Xmara]

What I really want to know is: Who was "Gnostic Christian Jesus"?

The founder of esoteric ecumenist gnostic Christianity of course

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Have the common decency to speak to why Christianity reversed the moral of the Jewish myth or take your hypocrisy where your interlocutor has your type of I.Q. and debating skills. That or pop up into my pay scale and do s better job.

This coming from someone who is low-key calling Chalcedonian Christians "lazy" and "stupid".

[Soldati Senza Confini]

What I really want to know is: Who was "Gnostic Christian Jesus"?

The founder of esoteric ecumenist gnostic Christianity of course

Sounds like a death metal band name to me.

Which, by the way, I call dibs on the name once I form a death metal band.

[Salus Maior]

Christ's relationships to us as mediator is far more than just the sacrifice on the Cross. By virture of his dual nature, being both %100 Human and %100 divine, he is the nexus point, joining humanity and God in an eternal communion. Just as we have fellowship with Christ through the Apostles, we have natural communion with God through Christ. Christ atoned for our sins through the Cross,yes, but through his mere existence he deifies mankind, elevating it from a dirt sniffing animal, to a species with eyes elevated towards God. Our reconciliation to God is far more complex than a mere payment of Flesh.

I see that you have to corrupt math to make your ridiculous Trinity garbage to work.

One cannot be more than 100% anything except to liars with poor math skills. That is why Constantine had to force this idiocy down the churches throat when he bought the church.

Regards
DL

Constantine didn't do anything to the doctrine of the Church. He ordered that the Nicene Council assemble, yes, because the conflict between the Nicenes and the Arians was a threat to Imperial social stability. But even then, he didn't respect the results of that council (which was that Arianism was condemned and the Trinitarian formula was made dogma) because in the years afterwards he would take the Arian side of the conflict and sent Athanasius (who was the champion of the Trinitarian position, and wrote its defining document; the Athanasian Creed) into exile.

Constantine couldn't have cared less what the Christians decided to keep as dogma, so long as the result was social stability for his Empire.

[Luminesa]

Aaaaaand you still have told us nothing about why Gnosticism is so great. Fun. "But it doesn't make sense!" is not a retort, either.

You did not ask and I am always pleased to show why your Christian forefathers could only use inquisitions and violence against us as they, like today, could not do better than our moral positions on things.

Let me tell you why we call our God I am, and mean ourselves..

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that lazy Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU

The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.

Regards
DL

...No.

1.) "I AM" refers to the verse from Exodus in which God tells Moses to tell the people that His name is "I AM WHO AM", which loosely translates to "YHWH". Every good Jew and every "good" Christian knows that when St. John writes of Jesus referring to "I AM", He is referring to His status as God. This is why in the passion according to St. John, in John 18, when Judas and his party come to get Jesus, the guards and the people with Judas were said to fall about themselves in confusion when Jesus referred to Himself as "I AM".

2.) All Christians are adopted into the family of God by Christ's sacrifice. We do not need to become the brethren of Christ because we already ARE the brothers and sisters of Christ:
"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the [f]kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In [g]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [h]lavished on [i]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [j]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration [l]suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth."

Behold this verse from Ephesians, which one of my friends once called the happiest book of the Bible. We are the adopted children of God. He has revealed to us the mystery of His love, which destroys the illusions of true Gnosticism. He has given us the graces to know Him, to love Him, and to worship Him forever. We ourselves are fading and mortal. We are not perfect. We are not meant to be our own gods, when God has given us every blessing He has in His death and resurrection.

[Reikoku]

I really recommend ignoring DL, there's no point arguing with him. I have no idea if he's a bot, multiple people, or the Time Cube guy, but he's been arguing this for around a decade. Nothing you say is going to get through.

[Xmara]

I really recommend ignoring DL, there's no point arguing with him. I have no idea if he's a bot, multiple people, or the Time Cube guy, but he's been arguing this for around a decade. Nothing you say is going to get through.

Probably not a bot. His answers don't really read like bot answers. I also doubt he's multiple people. Don't know the time cube guy.

But yeah, I agree with your last statement. I'll keep that in mind for next time.

[Genivaria]

Is this hypothetical bad thing being born?
And if they are actual deserving of punishment then it would be immoral to let the sibling take the punishment, for what would the child learn if he isn't the one being punished?

Being born isn't bad, but all of us are born with the stain of original sin because of our first parents' mistakes.

That's the point, really, Jesus didn't deserve the punishment, we did. But God wants to show us mercy. So He allowed His son to sacrifice Himself so that we would see the extent of God's love. It might seem crazy to us, but not to God.

And that's kind of the problem with the whole idea.

That's the point, really, Jesus didn't deserve the punishment, we did

In this context what punishment is that?
And what is the crime for that matter?

[Tarsonis]

Christ's relationships to us as mediator is far more than just the sacrifice on the Cross. By virture of his dual nature, being both %100 Human and %100 divine, he is the nexus point, joining humanity and God in an eternal communion. Just as we have fellowship with Christ through the Apostles, we have natural communion with God through Christ. Christ atoned for our sins through the Cross,yes, but through his mere existence he deifies mankind, elevating it from a dirt sniffing animal, to a species with eyes elevated towards God. Our reconciliation to God is far more complex than a mere payment of Flesh.

I see that you have to corrupt math to make your ridiculous Trinity garbage to work.

Would you be less offended if I had said "fully"? Also how does on do corrupt math, math is math.

One cannot be more than 100% anything except to liars with poor math skills.

"

Or to those with the intellectual capacity to understand abstract concepts. When we discuss being fully human and fully divine were not discussing tangible qualities, we're discussing abstract qualities, so the laws of the tangible universe do not apply. Just as I am fully Human and fully Male, so can Christ be fully Human and Fully Divine. Natures are intangible qualities, not tangible ones.

That is why Constantine had to force this idiocy down the churches throat when he bought the church.

Regards
DL

Why is it that all you obscure minority Christian groups always get this stuff wrong? Constantine didn't believe in the Trinity... he was an Arian. Constantine's lasting influence on the Church isn't doctrinal, it's practical. When he attempted to influence Christian Doctrine, the Church prevailed against him.

[Tarsonis]

Being born isn't bad, but all of us are born with the stain of original sin because of our first parents' mistakes.

That's the point, really, Jesus didn't deserve the punishment, we did. But God wants to show us mercy. So He allowed His son to sacrifice Himself so that we would see the extent of God's love. It might seem crazy to us, but not to God.

And that's kind of the problem with the whole idea.

That's the point, really, Jesus didn't deserve the punishment, we did

In this context what punishment is that?
And what is the crime for that matter?

Original sin isn't guilt. And punishment isn't accrued for Original sin. Original sin is why we sin, it's not itself a sin. Though admittedly a true understanding of the concept is lost on the average parishioner. Original sin is a wounded human nature, one imparted on ourselves.

In a less official interpretation: Original sin is human cognition, it's why we build spaceships while dolphins and chimps still fling poop. We've ascended beyond our base creaturely instincts, but we still animals at heart. Because of our cognition we have perception, choice, cognition. ANd because we have this, we are responsible and culpable. We can recognize right from wrong, a lion cannot. We can understand moral concepts, a lion does not. Therefore we accrue guilt while a lion does not. This is why I said that Christ does more than just pay the price for our guilt. Christ also elevates humanity to the point of deification.

Nature, in the philosophical concept, is an essential metaphysical quality beings posses and share in common with other beings of the same nature. We have human nature, God possesses the Divine Nature. Christ being fully human, and fully Divine, possess both. Like an Einstein-Rosenbridge fully occupying 2 points in space time, Christ is a nexus point, fully possessing both natures in a single vessel. Because we have a shared Nature with him, and He is also of the Divine Nature of God, we are joined in direct communion with the Divine.

[Salus Maior]

...Constantine didn't believe in the Trinity... he was an Arian. The Church prevailed against his influence.

I'm not sure if you could put him fully in either camp. Because he did exile high profile Arians after the council happened as well.

It seems to me that he was more or less for lack of a better word "apolitical" when it came to that particular crisis in the Church. He wanted people to stop fighting about it in his Empire, so he had the council convened, and exiled a number of Arians when the council condemned them. But then he also later exiled Athanasius, I imagine because he was continually outspoken about the issue (which is fair because the issue continued after the council) and Constantine wanted the issue settled and people to stop fighting about it.

[Tarsonis]

I really recommend ignoring DL, there's no point arguing with him. I have no idea if he's a bot, multiple people, or the Time Cube guy, but he's been arguing this for around a decade. Nothing you say is going to get through.

What is DL supposed to stand for?

[Tarsonis]

...Constantine didn't believe in the Trinity... he was an Arian. The Church prevailed against his influence.

I'm not sure if you could put him fully in either camp. Because he did exile high profile Arians after the council happened as well.

It seems to me that he was more or less for lack of a better word "apolitical" when it came to that particular crisis in the Church. He wanted people to stop fighting about it in his Empire, so he had the council convened, and exiled a number of Arians when the council condemned them. But then he also later exiled Athanasius, I imagine because he was continually outspoken about the issue (which is fair because the issue continued after the council) and Constantine wanted the issue settled and people to stop fighting about it.

And then three years later he let them come back, and declared Arianism to be true. It wasn't until he died and his Son Constans took over and suppressed the Arians his father supported that the Church was able to return to orthodoxy.

[Salus Maior]

I really recommend ignoring DL, there's no point arguing with him. I have no idea if he's a bot, multiple people, or the Time Cube guy, but he's been arguing this for around a decade. Nothing you say is going to get through.

What is DL supposed to stand for?

An old name I'm guessing

[Tarsonis]

Better to ask me what I think rather than telling me of the lies you have swallowed that the inquisitors put out to discredit us. I will speak of matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

> Gnostic Christian Jesus.
Uhhhhhh need I explain to you that Jesus Himself was...Jewish? What verse are you quoting in that bit? I don't think you were actually quoting any verse, in fact, because not only are you giving me absolutely no doctrine that tells me about Gnosticism, you refuse to actually explain what was incorrect about the 'Inquisitors' view of Gnosticism. Again, St. Augustine was a Gnostic at some point. He had a firsthand view of what they believed. Your view of Gnosticism is nothing more than some modern, skewed version of what the ideology actually entailed. And because you're not refuting me with any sort of coherent argument, I don't see what somehow makes Gnosticism so special.

Also, "Inquisitors"? Fam, the Vampire: The Masquerade RP is in Portal to the Multiverse. I'm in, we can use more players if you wanna make one. I actually play an Inquisitor, now that I mention it!

'Lust' and 'pride' are referred to as deadly sins, which are contrary to charity and humbleness, which John speaks of in the same letter. Lust results from a warped view of love, pride results from a warped view of the self. Remember that Jesus in the Bible calls us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

The funny part is we actually have Gnostic writings and Christian Polemics from the first century. We know what they believed.... and DL has not accurately represented it at all. He's correct that Gnostics didn't uniformly reject the material universe. By and large they did. (Though Marcion wasn't actually a gnostic.) But Christian Gnostics like Valentinus were less concerned withe the Demiurge / Monad dualism.