The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Salus Maior]

I hate the church's teaching that raping children is OK.

Ffs.

You realize that Catholics and Christians are probably the most upset over this because of the moral violations? Because it breaks the laws of the Church and what the Church is supposed to be?

Inquisition is still going strong, Pope Benedict's previous job was Chief of the Holy Office.

The Holy Office isn't the inquisition.

[Hakons]

And people wonder why I left?

Your Catholicism should not be dependent on the actions of others. People aren't Catholic because of priests and bishops or the moral conduct of the clergy, but because they believe the Church has been instituted by God. I do not see the immoral actions of others as grounds for leaving the community Christ calls us to take part in.

[Aellex]

The Divine Comedy is an allegory representing the soul's journey towards God, not literal Catholic dogma

It's just a rather decent poem by a salty Italian who wanted to shit on people he disliked. Don't read too much into it.

[Auze]

"Well, it's been a while since I last checked out the CDT, maybe I should say hi (please don't let the be a C vs A argument still on going)"
...
I'll be honest, the only problem seems to be nobody is talking about having a new poll. Well, that and the fact that is still a bit more dominated by Catholics than is optimal.

[Northern Davincia]

"Well, it's been a while since I last checked out the CDT, maybe I should say hi (please don't let the be a C vs A argument still on going)"
...
I'll be honest, the only problem seems to be nobody is talking about having a new poll. Well, that and the fact that is still a bit more dominated by Catholics than is optimal.

This thread is rightful Vatican soil.

[Philjia]

And people wonder why I left?

Your Catholicism should not be dependent on the actions of others. People aren't Catholic because of priests and bishops or the moral conduct of the clergy, but because they believe the Church has been instituted by God. I do not see the immoral actions of others as grounds for leaving the community Christ calls us to take part in.

The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.

[Northern Davincia]

Your Catholicism should not be dependent on the actions of others. People aren't Catholic because of priests and bishops or the moral conduct of the clergy, but because they believe the Church has been instituted by God. I do not see the immoral actions of others as grounds for leaving the community Christ calls us to take part in.

The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.

The Catholic Church is more than its earthly leadership.

[The Black Forrest]

I hate the church's teaching that raping children is OK.

Ffs.

You realize that Catholics and Christians are probably the most upset over this because of the moral violations? Because it breaks the laws of the Church and what the Church is supposed to be?

Well that's nice.

Again talk is easy.

[The South Falls]

The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.

The Catholic Church is more than its earthly leadership.

It needs to get it's boots clean before it talks about its heaven.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

The Catholic Church is more than its earthly leadership.

It needs to get it's boots clean before it talks about its heaven.

To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

[Northern Davincia]

It needs to get it's boots clean before it talks about its heaven.

To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

Not just the Catholic Church, but all churches.

[Kowani]

It needs to get it's boots clean before it talks about its heaven.

To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. If God’s work involves abusing children, I think the Old Testament God is the one being serviced, not Jesus.

[Salus Maior]

To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. If God’s work involves abusing children, I think the Old Testament God is the one being serviced, not Jesus.

When they're following Christian morality, yeah that's true.

[Northern Davincia]

To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. If God’s work involves abusing children, I think the Old Testament God is the one being serviced, not Jesus.

1. Jesus is the OT God.
2. The OT God would never be serviced by the likes of abusive priests.

[Kowani]

Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. If God’s work involves abusing children, I think the Old Testament God is the one being serviced, not Jesus.

When they're following Christian morality, yeah that's true.

And yet, all this institutional corruption, a pattern going back centuries, mind you, is definitely not Christian Morality, and as such, the Church is either incompetent or, they have a vested interest in not reporting such abuses to secular authorities. They’re definitely not doing God’s will, and nobody in power seems to realize that it’s better for the Church in the long run to just fess up, kick the abusers out, and lose in the short term, only to come off looking like even better people. One less priest, yes, but, let’s look at the numbers. There were about 300 accused priests, and around 1000 abused children. A nice ratio of 3.3 kids for every priest. (This is just a sweeping generalization, but it works for the argument) I think most of us agree that 3.3 kids are worth more than a priest’s career, especially since, y’know, he was the one abusing said kids.

[Hakons]

Your Catholicism should not be dependent on the actions of others. People aren't Catholic because of priests and bishops or the moral conduct of the clergy, but because they believe the Church has been instituted by God. I do not see the immoral actions of others as grounds for leaving the community Christ calls us to take part in.

The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.

The people are not the Church. The Church is not just an organization of people. The Church is wedded to Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. If everyone in the Church decided for whatever reason to create a different church, the copy would not be the Church. The Church is not man made, but divinely made. The same Creator that gave breath to you and I is the One that created the Church. The Church is perfect because God is perfect. The clergy and laymen, on the other hand, are imperfect and corrupted, because humanity is corrupted. No amount of human corruption within the Church can make the Church imperfect. No amount of sin within the members of the Church makes it justifiable to leave the Church. There is certainly justification to try to reform the members of the Church so that they more adequately follow Christ's teachings, but there is never a justification to leave the Church that God calls us to be part of. Leaving the Church is leaving the Christian community, the teachings of Christ, and the path of life given to us by Christ. There is no justification for this.

[Salus Maior]

When they're following Christian morality, yeah that's true.

They’re definitely not doing God’s will, and nobody in power seems to realize that it’s better for the Church in the long run to just fess up, kick the abusers out, and lose in the short term, only to come off looking like even better people. One less priest, yes, but, let’s look at the numbers. There were about 300 accused priests, and around 1000 abused children. A nice ratio of 3.3 kids for every priest. (This is just a sweeping generalization, but it works for the argument) I think most of us agree that 3.3 kids are worth more than a priest’s career, especially since, y’know, he was the one abusing said kids.

Yeah I agree.

[Kowani]

The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.

The people are not the Church. The Church is not just an organization of people. The Church is wedded to Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. If everyone in the Church decided for whatever reason to create a different church, the copy would not be the Church. The Church is not man made, but divinely made. The same Creator that gave breath to you and I is the One that created the Church. The Church is perfect because God is perfect. The clergy and laymen, on the other hand, are imperfect and corrupted, because humanity is corrupted. No amount of human corruption within the Church can make the Church imperfect. No amount of sin within the members of the Church makes it justifiable to leave the Church. There is certainly justification to try to reform the members of the Church so that they more adequately follow Christ's teachings, but there is never a justification to leave the Church that God calls us to be part of. Leaving the Church is leaving the Christian community, the teachings of Christ, and the path of life given to us by Christ. There is no justification for this.

...That’s...quite tautological of you. I feel like I should ask if the Church is not just a body of people, what is it? (And don’t say a building.) I mean, all those martyrs who died when Christianity was just starting out, yeah, no, they did jack shit because the Church was divinely made. God, apart from being present in Jesus did literally nothing to build the Church afterwards. Yeah, he kickstarted it, but to claim that humans did absolutely nothing to build it is both disingenuous and well, wrong. Plus, all those other denominations of Christianity, y’know, the 4,200, plus all the nondenominational people? Yeah, they totally left the Christian community and the way of life taught by Jesus. And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.

[Stonok]

Isn't pedophilia a problem with all of humanity regardless of whether they happen to be a member of a church? Mental illness doesn't care if you believe in God. Christianity is just low hanging fruit.

[Kowani]

Isn't pedophilia a problem with all of humanity regardless of whether they happen to be a member of a church? Mental illness doesn't care if you believe in God. Christianity is just low hanging fruit.

It not just the pedophilia, which is obviously a problem, but also the systematic coverups committed by the Church, as well as the fact that it’s a major abuse of power.

[Northern Davincia]

The people are not the Church. The Church is not just an organization of people. The Church is wedded to Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. If everyone in the Church decided for whatever reason to create a different church, the copy would not be the Church. The Church is not man made, but divinely made. The same Creator that gave breath to you and I is the One that created the Church. The Church is perfect because God is perfect. The clergy and laymen, on the other hand, are imperfect and corrupted, because humanity is corrupted. No amount of human corruption within the Church can make the Church imperfect. No amount of sin within the members of the Church makes it justifiable to leave the Church. There is certainly justification to try to reform the members of the Church so that they more adequately follow Christ's teachings, but there is never a justification to leave the Church that God calls us to be part of. Leaving the Church is leaving the Christian community, the teachings of Christ, and the path of life given to us by Christ. There is no justification for this.

...That’s...quite tautological of you. I feel like I should ask if the Church is not just a body of people, what is it? (And don’t say a building.) I mean, all those martyrs who died when Christianity was just starting out, yeah, no, they did jack shit because the Church was divinely made. God, apart from being present in Jesus did literally nothing to build the Church afterwards. Yeah, he kickstarted it, but to claim that humans did absolutely nothing to build it is both disingenuous and well, wrong. Plus, all those other denominations of Christianity, y’know, the 4,200, plus all the nondenominational people? Yeah, they totally left the Christian community and the way of life taught by Jesus. And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.

1. The Church is the avenue through which man can come closer to God.
2. The Holy Spirit guided the formation of the Church after the ascension. There are plenty of miracles which demonstrate this.
3. You're not making sense with your ISIS analogy. Assuming that Catholicism is correct, all non-Catholic Christians would rightly be deemed as heretics, and their fate self-imposed.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. […]

The Church draws its authority from Tradition, Scripture and the Apostlistic Succession, not from the claim that they’re doing God’s work. Anyone who isn’t blind would recognise that the Church as an institution, along with those in it, have a tendency to both stray from doing God’s work, and err as humans do.

[…]And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.

In this case why would it matter, whether you’re apart of the Church or not, you’re still Christian, and thus still likely to be killed for being so.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

...That’s...quite tautological of you. I feel like I should ask if the Church is not just a body of people, what is it? (And don’t say a building.) I mean, all those martyrs who died when Christianity was just starting out, yeah, no, they did jack shit because the Church was divinely made. God, apart from being present in Jesus did literally nothing to build the Church afterwards. Yeah, he kickstarted it, but to claim that humans did absolutely nothing to build it is both disingenuous and well, wrong. Plus, all those other denominations of Christianity, y’know, the 4,200, plus all the nondenominational people? Yeah, they totally left the Christian community and the way of life taught by Jesus. And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.

2. The Holy Spirit guided the formation of the Church after the ascension. There are plenty of miracles which demonstrate this.

Care to give any examples?

3. You're not making sense with your ISIS analogy. Assuming that Catholicism is correct, all non-Catholic Christians would rightly be deemed as heretics, and their fate self-imposed.

IF Catholics killed all non-Catholic Christians, their fates would have been imposed by the Catholic Church, not self-imposed - when Stalin sent millions of political opponents to gulags, their fates were imposed by Stalin, not self-imposed.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

It not just the pedophilia, which is obviously a problem, but also the systematic coverups committed by the Church, as well as the fact that it’s a major abuse of power.

Just to clarify. Is pedophilia a problem insofar that it shouldn’t be happening at all? Yes. Is pedophilia a problem insofar that it is unusually high within the Catholic Church? No, the estimated amount of pedophiles in between 1950 and 2002 is only 4%, which is similar to the rate of frequency in the rest of the adult population. What was unique about these cases was, as you said, the systematic coverups by Church officials.

[Kowani]

...That’s...quite tautological of you. I feel like I should ask if the Church is not just a body of people, what is it? (And don’t say a building.) I mean, all those martyrs who died when Christianity was just starting out, yeah, no, they did jack shit because the Church was divinely made. God, apart from being present in Jesus did literally nothing to build the Church afterwards. Yeah, he kickstarted it, but to claim that humans did absolutely nothing to build it is both disingenuous and well, wrong. Plus, all those other denominations of Christianity, y’know, the 4,200, plus all the nondenominational people? Yeah, they totally left the Christian community and the way of life taught by Jesus. And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.

1. The Church is the avenue through which man can come closer to God.
2. The Holy Spirit guided the formation of the Church after the ascension. There are plenty of miracles which demonstrate this.
3. You're not making sense with your ISIS analogy. Assuming that Catholicism is correct, all non-Catholic Christians would rightly be deemed as heretics, and their fate self-imposed.

The ISIS analogy was merely me pointing out that despite what Hakons said, there are actual times where there is a legitimate reason to leave the church. Outliers and extreme points, yes, but he said never, so I felt that current events were a thing.

As for those miracles, I assume you have proof of those. And no, one eyewitness with nothing but their word does not count as proof.