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The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
334
36%
Eastern Orthodox
85
9%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
6
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
57
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
96
10%
Methodist
16
2%
Baptist
95
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
72
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
37
4%
Other Christian
137
15%
 
Total votes : 935

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Salus Maior
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Posts: 27813
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Salus Maior » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:06 pm

Auristania wrote:I hate the church's teaching that raping children is OK.


Ffs.

You realize that Catholics and Christians are probably the most upset over this because of the moral violations? Because it breaks the laws of the Church and what the Church is supposed to be?

Auristania wrote:Inquisition is still going strong, Pope Benedict's previous job was Chief of the Holy Office.


The Holy Office isn't the inquisition.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Hakons
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Founded: Jul 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Hakons » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:32 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:And people wonder why I left?


Your Catholicism should not be dependent on the actions of others. People aren't Catholic because of priests and bishops or the moral conduct of the clergy, but because they believe the Church has been instituted by God. I do not see the immoral actions of others as grounds for leaving the community Christ calls us to take part in.
“All elements of the national life must be made to drink in the Life which proceedeth from Him: legislation, political institutions, education, marriage and family life, capital and labour.” —Pope Leo XIII

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Aellex
Senator
 
Posts: 4635
Founded: Apr 23, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aellex » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:14 pm

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:The Divine Comedy is an allegory representing the soul's journey towards God, not literal Catholic dogma

It's just a rather decent poem by a salty Italian who wanted to shit on people he disliked. Don't read too much into it.
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Auze
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Posts: 2076
Founded: Oct 31, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Auze » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:23 pm

"Well, it's been a while since I last checked out the CDT, maybe I should say hi (please don't let the be a C vs A argument still on going)"
...
I'll be honest, the only problem seems to be nobody is talking about having a new poll. Well, that and the fact that is still a bit more dominated by Catholics than is optimal.
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Northern Davincia
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Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:51 pm

Auze wrote:"Well, it's been a while since I last checked out the CDT, maybe I should say hi (please don't let the be a C vs A argument still on going)"
...
I'll be honest, the only problem seems to be nobody is talking about having a new poll. Well, that and the fact that is still a bit more dominated by Catholics than is optimal.

This thread is rightful Vatican soil.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Philjia
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Posts: 11556
Founded: Sep 15, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Philjia » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:16 pm

Hakons wrote:
The Black Forrest wrote:And people wonder why I left?


Your Catholicism should not be dependent on the actions of others. People aren't Catholic because of priests and bishops or the moral conduct of the clergy, but because they believe the Church has been instituted by God. I do not see the immoral actions of others as grounds for leaving the community Christ calls us to take part in.

The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.
JG Ballard wrote:I want to rub the human race in its own vomit, and force it to look in the mirror.

⚧ Trans rights. ⚧
Pragmatic ethical utopian socialist, IE I'm for whatever kind of socialism is the most moral and practical. Pro LGBT rights and gay marriage, pro gay adoption, generally internationalist, ambivalent on the EU, atheist, pro free speech and expression, pro legalisation of prostitution and soft drugs, and pro choice. Anti authoritarian, anti Marxist. White cishet male.

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:33 pm

Philjia wrote:
Hakons wrote:
Your Catholicism should not be dependent on the actions of others. People aren't Catholic because of priests and bishops or the moral conduct of the clergy, but because they believe the Church has been instituted by God. I do not see the immoral actions of others as grounds for leaving the community Christ calls us to take part in.

The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.

The Catholic Church is more than its earthly leadership.
Last edited by Northern Davincia on Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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The Black Forrest
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55613
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:34 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Auristania wrote:I hate the church's teaching that raping children is OK.


Ffs.

You realize that Catholics and Christians are probably the most upset over this because of the moral violations? Because it breaks the laws of the Church and what the Church is supposed to be?


Well that's nice.

Again talk is easy.
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The South Falls
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13353
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The South Falls » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:36 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Philjia wrote:The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.

The Catholic Church is more than its earthly leadership.

It needs to get it's boots clean before it talks about its heaven.
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


Political Compass Results:

Economic: -5.5
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51
I make dumb jokes. I'm really serious about that.

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FelrikTheDeleted
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8949
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:40 pm

The South Falls wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:The Catholic Church is more than its earthly leadership.

It needs to get it's boots clean before it talks about its heaven.


To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:47 pm

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
The South Falls wrote:It needs to get it's boots clean before it talks about its heaven.


To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

Not just the Catholic Church, but all churches.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:02 pm

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
The South Falls wrote:It needs to get it's boots clean before it talks about its heaven.


To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. If God’s work involves abusing children, I think the Old Testament God is the one being serviced, not Jesus.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27813
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Salus Maior » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:21 pm

Kowani wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. If God’s work involves abusing children, I think the Old Testament God is the one being serviced, not Jesus.


When they're following Christian morality, yeah that's true.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:23 pm

Kowani wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
To err is human. The day that the entirety of the Church’s membership is clean is the day that pigs sprout wings and fly.

Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. If God’s work involves abusing children, I think the Old Testament God is the one being serviced, not Jesus.

1. Jesus is the OT God.
2. The OT God would never be serviced by the likes of abusive priests.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:32 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Kowani wrote:Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. If God’s work involves abusing children, I think the Old Testament God is the one being serviced, not Jesus.


When they're following Christian morality, yeah that's true.

And yet, all this institutional corruption, a pattern going back centuries, mind you, is definitely not Christian Morality, and as such, the Church is either incompetent or, they have a vested interest in not reporting such abuses to secular authorities. They’re definitely not doing God’s will, and nobody in power seems to realize that it’s better for the Church in the long run to just fess up, kick the abusers out, and lose in the short term, only to come off looking like even better people. One less priest, yes, but, let’s look at the numbers. There were about 300 accused priests, and around 1000 abused children. A nice ratio of 3.3 kids for every priest. (This is just a sweeping generalization, but it works for the argument) I think most of us agree that 3.3 kids are worth more than a priest’s career, especially since, y’know, he was the one abusing said kids.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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Hakons
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5619
Founded: Jul 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Hakons » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:35 pm

Philjia wrote:
Hakons wrote:
Your Catholicism should not be dependent on the actions of others. People aren't Catholic because of priests and bishops or the moral conduct of the clergy, but because they believe the Church has been instituted by God. I do not see the immoral actions of others as grounds for leaving the community Christ calls us to take part in.

The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.


The people are not the Church. The Church is not just an organization of people. The Church is wedded to Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. If everyone in the Church decided for whatever reason to create a different church, the copy would not be the Church. The Church is not man made, but divinely made. The same Creator that gave breath to you and I is the One that created the Church. The Church is perfect because God is perfect. The clergy and laymen, on the other hand, are imperfect and corrupted, because humanity is corrupted. No amount of human corruption within the Church can make the Church imperfect. No amount of sin within the members of the Church makes it justifiable to leave the Church. There is certainly justification to try to reform the members of the Church so that they more adequately follow Christ's teachings, but there is never a justification to leave the Church that God calls us to be part of. Leaving the Church is leaving the Christian community, the teachings of Christ, and the path of life given to us by Christ. There is no justification for this.
“All elements of the national life must be made to drink in the Life which proceedeth from Him: legislation, political institutions, education, marriage and family life, capital and labour.” —Pope Leo XIII

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Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27813
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Salus Maior » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:36 pm

Kowani wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
When they're following Christian morality, yeah that's true.
They’re definitely not doing God’s will, and nobody in power seems to realize that it’s better for the Church in the long run to just fess up, kick the abusers out, and lose in the short term, only to come off looking like even better people. One less priest, yes, but, let’s look at the numbers. There were about 300 accused priests, and around 1000 abused children. A nice ratio of 3.3 kids for every priest. (This is just a sweeping generalization, but it works for the argument) I think most of us agree that 3.3 kids are worth more than a priest’s career, especially since, y’know, he was the one abusing said kids.


Yeah I agree.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist, Disillusioned Millennial.

"In any case we clearly see....That some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class...it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition." -Pope Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:53 pm

Hakons wrote:
Philjia wrote:The people are the institution. If the people are corrupt then the institution is corrupt. If the institution is corrupt then it cannot adequately represent God. If it cannot adequately represent God then there is no reason for a Christian to tie itself to it. The reformation itself was arguably started over less.


The people are not the Church. The Church is not just an organization of people. The Church is wedded to Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. If everyone in the Church decided for whatever reason to create a different church, the copy would not be the Church. The Church is not man made, but divinely made. The same Creator that gave breath to you and I is the One that created the Church. The Church is perfect because God is perfect. The clergy and laymen, on the other hand, are imperfect and corrupted, because humanity is corrupted. No amount of human corruption within the Church can make the Church imperfect. No amount of sin within the members of the Church makes it justifiable to leave the Church. There is certainly justification to try to reform the members of the Church so that they more adequately follow Christ's teachings, but there is never a justification to leave the Church that God calls us to be part of. Leaving the Church is leaving the Christian community, the teachings of Christ, and the path of life given to us by Christ. There is no justification for this.

...That’s...quite tautological of you. I feel like I should ask if the Church is not just a body of people, what is it? (And don’t say a building.) I mean, all those martyrs who died when Christianity was just starting out, yeah, no, they did jack shit because the Church was divinely made. God, apart from being present in Jesus did literally nothing to build the Church afterwards. Yeah, he kickstarted it, but to claim that humans did absolutely nothing to build it is both disingenuous and well, wrong. Plus, all those other denominations of Christianity, y’know, the 4,200, plus all the nondenominational people? Yeah, they totally left the Christian community and the way of life taught by Jesus. And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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Stonok
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1008
Founded: Nov 27, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Stonok » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:22 pm

Isn't pedophilia a problem with all of humanity regardless of whether they happen to be a member of a church? Mental illness doesn't care if you believe in God. Christianity is just low hanging fruit.

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:36 pm

Stonok wrote:Isn't pedophilia a problem with all of humanity regardless of whether they happen to be a member of a church? Mental illness doesn't care if you believe in God. Christianity is just low hanging fruit.

It not just the pedophilia, which is obviously a problem, but also the systematic coverups committed by the Church, as well as the fact that it’s a major abuse of power.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:54 pm

Kowani wrote:
Hakons wrote:
The people are not the Church. The Church is not just an organization of people. The Church is wedded to Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. If everyone in the Church decided for whatever reason to create a different church, the copy would not be the Church. The Church is not man made, but divinely made. The same Creator that gave breath to you and I is the One that created the Church. The Church is perfect because God is perfect. The clergy and laymen, on the other hand, are imperfect and corrupted, because humanity is corrupted. No amount of human corruption within the Church can make the Church imperfect. No amount of sin within the members of the Church makes it justifiable to leave the Church. There is certainly justification to try to reform the members of the Church so that they more adequately follow Christ's teachings, but there is never a justification to leave the Church that God calls us to be part of. Leaving the Church is leaving the Christian community, the teachings of Christ, and the path of life given to us by Christ. There is no justification for this.

...That’s...quite tautological of you. I feel like I should ask if the Church is not just a body of people, what is it? (And don’t say a building.) I mean, all those martyrs who died when Christianity was just starting out, yeah, no, they did jack shit because the Church was divinely made. God, apart from being present in Jesus did literally nothing to build the Church afterwards. Yeah, he kickstarted it, but to claim that humans did absolutely nothing to build it is both disingenuous and well, wrong. Plus, all those other denominations of Christianity, y’know, the 4,200, plus all the nondenominational people? Yeah, they totally left the Christian community and the way of life taught by Jesus. And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.

1. The Church is the avenue through which man can come closer to God.
2. The Holy Spirit guided the formation of the Church after the ascension. There are plenty of miracles which demonstrate this.
3. You're not making sense with your ISIS analogy. Assuming that Catholicism is correct, all non-Catholic Christians would rightly be deemed as heretics, and their fate self-imposed.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
FelrikTheDeleted
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8949
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:08 pm

Kowani wrote:Yes, but the Church draws quite a bit of authority from the claim that they are doing God’s work. […]


The Church draws its authority from Tradition, Scripture and the Apostlistic Succession, not from the claim that they’re doing God’s work. Anyone who isn’t blind would recognise that the Church as an institution, along with those in it, have a tendency to both stray from doing God’s work, and err as humans do.

Kowani wrote:[…]And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.


In this case why would it matter, whether you’re apart of the Church or not, you’re still Christian, and thus still likely to be killed for being so.

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
Minister
 
Posts: 3373
Founded: Jul 14, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:15 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:...That’s...quite tautological of you. I feel like I should ask if the Church is not just a body of people, what is it? (And don’t say a building.) I mean, all those martyrs who died when Christianity was just starting out, yeah, no, they did jack shit because the Church was divinely made. God, apart from being present in Jesus did literally nothing to build the Church afterwards. Yeah, he kickstarted it, but to claim that humans did absolutely nothing to build it is both disingenuous and well, wrong. Plus, all those other denominations of Christianity, y’know, the 4,200, plus all the nondenominational people? Yeah, they totally left the Christian community and the way of life taught by Jesus. And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.

2. The Holy Spirit guided the formation of the Church after the ascension. There are plenty of miracles which demonstrate this.

Care to give any examples?
3. You're not making sense with your ISIS analogy. Assuming that Catholicism is correct, all non-Catholic Christians would rightly be deemed as heretics, and their fate self-imposed.

IF Catholics killed all non-Catholic Christians, their fates would have been imposed by the Catholic Church, not self-imposed - when Stalin sent millions of political opponents to gulags, their fates were imposed by Stalin, not self-imposed.

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FelrikTheDeleted
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8949
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:17 pm

Kowani wrote:It not just the pedophilia, which is obviously a problem, but also the systematic coverups committed by the Church, as well as the fact that it’s a major abuse of power.


Just to clarify. Is pedophilia a problem insofar that it shouldn’t be happening at all? Yes. Is pedophilia a problem insofar that it is unusually high within the Catholic Church? No, the estimated amount of pedophiles in between 1950 and 2002 is only 4%, which is similar to the rate of frequency in the rest of the adult population. What was unique about these cases was, as you said, the systematic coverups by Church officials.

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44696
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:35 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:...That’s...quite tautological of you. I feel like I should ask if the Church is not just a body of people, what is it? (And don’t say a building.) I mean, all those martyrs who died when Christianity was just starting out, yeah, no, they did jack shit because the Church was divinely made. God, apart from being present in Jesus did literally nothing to build the Church afterwards. Yeah, he kickstarted it, but to claim that humans did absolutely nothing to build it is both disingenuous and well, wrong. Plus, all those other denominations of Christianity, y’know, the 4,200, plus all the nondenominational people? Yeah, they totally left the Christian community and the way of life taught by Jesus. And then we get to places like ISIS territory, where being a Christian is literally enough to get you killed, and in those kinds of cases, I think leaving the church is quite justified.

1. The Church is the avenue through which man can come closer to God.
2. The Holy Spirit guided the formation of the Church after the ascension. There are plenty of miracles which demonstrate this.
3. You're not making sense with your ISIS analogy. Assuming that Catholicism is correct, all non-Catholic Christians would rightly be deemed as heretics, and their fate self-imposed.

The ISIS analogy was merely me pointing out that despite what Hakons said, there are actual times where there is a legitimate reason to leave the church. Outliers and extreme points, yes, but he said never, so I felt that current events were a thing.

As for those miracles, I assume you have proof of those. And no, one eyewitness with nothing but their word does not count as proof.
Abolitionism in the North has leagued itself with Radical Democracy, and so the Slave Power was forced to ally itself with the Money Power; that is the great fact of the age.




The triumph of the Democracy is essential to the struggle of popular liberty


Currently Rehabilitating: Martin Van Buren, Benjamin Harrison, and Woodrow Wilson
Currently Vilifying: George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, and Jimmy Carter

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