The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Lost Memories]

Thinking more about the role of bishops and the "changing times", christianity as a whole (and the church by relation) should be about being the vanguard of the moral discourse, and not just adapting to the times, which means lagging behind. There is already politics for adapting to the times, christianity should look more far ahead than that.
But the feel is that in the last decades christianity in the west has been more passive or defensive. (if not even submissive, in some branches)

No idea about the other branches, but as catholic I wonder if the second council was ineffective, if it was badly timed, or if it is yet not understood and applied.

[Tarsonis]

Thinking more about the role of bishops and the "changing times", christianity as a whole (and the church by relation) should be about being the vanguard of the moral discourse, and not just adapting to the times, which means lagging behind. There is already politics for adapting to the times, christianity should look more far ahead than that.
But the feel is that in the last decades christianity in the west has been more passive or defensive. (if not even submissive, in some branches)

No idea about the other branches, but as catholic I wonder if the second council was ineffective, if it was badly timed, or if it is yet not understood and applied.

Passive isn’t the right word. They’ve tried to be more conciliatory.

[Tarsonis]

It should be noted that, best as I can tell, none of the cases out of Philadelphia are from after 2002. Just to put that in perspective it means that these aren't new cases, but rather cases that were hidden before the Boston scandal blew the whole thing open.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Thinking more about the role of bishops and the "changing times", christianity as a whole (and the church by relation) should be about being the vanguard of the moral discourse, and not just adapting to the times, which means lagging behind. There is already politics for adapting to the times, christianity should look more far ahead than that.
But the feel is that in the last decades christianity in the west has been more passive or defensive. (if not even submissive, in some branches)

No idea about the other branches, but as catholic I wonder if the second council was ineffective, if it was badly timed, or if it is yet not understood and applied.

Passive isn’t the right word. They’ve tried to be more conciliatory.

"Defensive" is the correct term. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church was the forefront of technological and social innovation in Europe - for example, monasteries pioneered the use of clocks for timekeeping. Thus, the church was scientifically and morally on the offensive, spreading their knowledge and teachings across the world. However, nowadays the Catholic Church has ceased to be the forefront of innovation, and preoccupies itself with reacting to the ideas of others such as same-sex marriage, abortion rights and quantum mechanics. While the Catholic Church proclaims its positions on such issues, the church does not spawn radical new ideologies or carry out groundbreaking scientific research - thus, it is scientifically and morally defending its long-held positions.

[Tarsonis]

Passive isn’t the right word. They’ve tried to be more conciliatory.

"Defensive" is the correct term. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church was the forefront of technological and social innovation in Europe - for example, monasteries pioneered the use of clocks for timekeeping. Thus, the church was scientifically and morally on the offensive, spreading their knowledge and teachings across the world. However, nowadays the Catholic Church has ceased to be the forefront of innovation, and preoccupies itself with reacting to the ideas of others such as same-sex marriage, abortion rights and quantum mechanics. While the Catholic Church proclaims its positions on such issues, the church does not spawn radical new ideologies or carry out groundbreaking scientific research - thus, it is scientifically and morally defending its long-held positions.

That’s not what we’re talking about.


The Catholic Church has, in the wake of Vatican 2, embraced a conciliatory position. The goal of this position has been specifically outlined in V2 documents as an approach to bring people back into the fold of the Catholic Church. This has caused the church to give the appearance of being lenient on moral teachings.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

"Defensive" is the correct term. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church was the forefront of technological and social innovation in Europe - for example, monasteries pioneered the use of clocks for timekeeping. Thus, the church was scientifically and morally on the offensive, spreading their knowledge and teachings across the world. However, nowadays the Catholic Church has ceased to be the forefront of innovation, and preoccupies itself with reacting to the ideas of others such as same-sex marriage, abortion rights and quantum mechanics. While the Catholic Church proclaims its positions on such issues, the church does not spawn radical new ideologies or carry out groundbreaking scientific research - thus, it is scientifically and morally defending its long-held positions.

That’s not what we’re talking about.


The Catholic Church has, in the wake of Vatican 2, embraced a conciliatory position. The goal of this position has been specifically outlined in V2 documents as an approach to bring people back into the fold of the Catholic Church. This has caused the church to give the appearance of being lenient on moral teachings.

Ok, I must have misread something earler

[Kowani]

It should be noted that, best as I can tell, none of the cases out of Philadelphia are from after 2002. Just to put that in perspective it means that these aren't new cases, but rather cases that were hidden before the Boston scandal blew the whole thing open.

I don’t think the main problem is the abuse of children, which is, obviously, fucking wrong, but rather the fact that the Church helped cover it up. The child abuse is the most visible thing, yes, but the environment and the attitude of the Church towards it is far, far more dangerous, because it fosters an environment in which this sort of thing can, and most likely will, happen again. It does good to take out the priests who did this, but if the underlying problem and the enabling factors are not addressed, the situation will repeat itself.

[Tarsonis]

It should be noted that, best as I can tell, none of the cases out of Philadelphia are from after 2002. Just to put that in perspective it means that these aren't new cases, but rather cases that were hidden before the Boston scandal blew the whole thing open.

I don’t think the main problem is the abuse of children, which is, obviously, fucking wrong, but rather the fact that the Church helped cover it up. The child abuse is the most visible thing, yes, but the environment and the attitude of the Church towards it is far, far more dangerous, because it fosters an environment in which this sort of thing can, and most likely will, happen again. It does good to take out the priests who did this, but if the underlying problem and the enabling factors are not addressed, the situation will repeat itself.

Oh absolutely, but the fact that there’s no cases since 2002 does tel that the Church is addressing the issue

[Angleter]

Some thoughts about the abuse crisis:

The times

I should preface this all by saying this isn’t normal, and it’s not inherent to the Church. It hasn’t always been this way, and it can and must be fixed. Realistically, it’s in all our interests to acknowledge that. We cannot ignore that this scandal is part of a wider pattern of scandals in Western institutions in the late 20th century – Hollywood, British entertainment, and a whole host of other institutions.

Ross Douthat wrote about the role of the 1970s in this – a time when all aspects of traditional sexual morality were being broken down, with no respect for power relations or basic human decency. It was ‘free love’ for the powerful, whether their targets wanted it or not. Hence the acceptance of the Paedophile Information Exchange by many British civil liberties campaigners. Or Danny Cohn-Bendit’s accounts of erotic encounters with children. Or Bernie Sanders’ rape fantasies. Or Roman Polanski. I could go on. That’s the environment in which the evil in our Church spread.

But we must also recognise that this is still a uniquely Catholic issue. The scale of abuse, cover-ups, and silence in the PA report is shocking. I’ll go over other specifics below, but on the generational side of things, we need old bishops out and new bishops in. All mandatory resignations at 75 should be accepted immediately, at least for every bishop currently incumbent. Anyone found to have covered up should obviously also go without delay.

Every abuser, every cover-upper, should either face criminal justice or, failing that, be removed from all public duties and sent to a remote monastery to live the rest of their days in penance. The rest should just withdraw from public life and stay silent after retirement. This generation has failed; we don’t need them any more.

In their place should come new, young bishops. The old guard should have next to no say in their selection. The new bishops should have a strong will and a strong record of personal holiness and integrity, and I’d pay particular attention to those who have lived in austerity and community. Oratorians, Dominicans, and so on.

Bishops’ conferences

The decision at Vatican II to introduce ‘collegiality’ to the Church, and grant vast swathes of autonomy to national bishops’ conferences at the expense of the Vatican, couldn’t have come at a worse time. It created powerful new bureaucracies outside the Papacy, staffed by bishops who were fiercely protective of their own territory, their own autonomy, and their own reputation as a conference.

It’s self-government by bishops. Ineffective at rooting out bad bishops; a conduit for worst practice; and a barrier to attempts from Rome to impose best practice. It’s notoriously difficult for the Vatican to get bishops, and especially bishops’ conferences, to follow directives they don’t like on matters like the liturgy, the Ordinariate, and suchlike. How on Earth can we expect the Vatican to have had any more success in getting them to deal properly with clerical sex abuse?

The answer to this issue is simple – the Vatican needs to take back control. Bishops’ conferences are a failed experiment and they should be at least gutted, or preferably abolished altogether.

The Vatican

Obviously we also need a functioning Vatican to actually impose best practice, and I’ll give a basic gestalt on my viewpoint on how it’s failed in recent decades. This scandal became more prominent in the 1990s, just as John Paul II’s faculties were declining, which left a horrendous power vacuum in the Vatican. This enabled, for instance, Cardinal Sodano to protect the villainous Fr Maciel.

The then Cardinal Ratzinger’s attempt to make the issue an ill-fitting part of the CDF’s remit was well-intended, but didn’t work – which goes for most of Benedict XVI’s actions here. He was always a theologian, not an effective administrator or reformer. I am coming round to the theory that he was essentially forced out of office by elements in the Vatican who were resistant to reform – both on this issue and more broadly.

The reform we’d hoped for in 2013 certainly hasn’t happened – if anything, it’s gone the other way. Francis’ mishandling of a number of cases – Fr Inzoli, Bishop Barros, Cardinal Mahony, Cardinal Danneels, the Honduran seminaries – signifies naivety, complacency, and a misplaced loyalty to his allies and friends.
We need Francis to clear house in the Vatican, just as must be done in the episcopacy. He should also use his own reputation for austerity for good – how about requiring everyone else in the Vatican to live simply? That should deter many of those who aren’t serious.

Factionalism

The Church has been gripped by an internal culture war since Vatican II. In fact, since before then – after all, Vatican II had to come from somewhere. The abuse and the cover-ups cover both sides of the culture war (see Cardinal Wuerl and Bishop Timlin in the PA report alone), and both sides of the culture war want this filth out of the Church.

The problem is that they have very different ideas on how to do it. The liberal side has, of course, got the might of the secular media, secular authorities, and public opinion among non-Catholics and nominal Catholics on its side, but there we are. Either way, both sides have used the scandal to bash the other side with.

And each faction goes on the defensive too. It’s no accident that Francis’ biggest liberal cheerleaders – Fr James Martin, Fr Rosica, Cardinal Wuerl – have been playing this recent scandal down as much as possible. It’s no surprise, therefore, that bishops of each faction have been so eager to play cover-up lest the scandal give the other side a W. Literally letting your priests escape justice for raping children to own the libs/trads (delete as appropriate).

The solution to this issue is harder – at least if we discount ‘let my side win’. But I think it should involve people on both sides of the Catholic culture war coming together to agree on a list of actions that need to be taken. And that should start with disowning the creeps and cowards on our own sides.

[Luminesa]

Angleter spoke best here, I don’t have much to offer otherwise. But I do think our world in general has embraced a sort of politics in which the goal is not the betterment of X people, but rather “Y party has to win because Z party is evil”. It’s all about sides, and this side winning over this side. I think we should pray during this time for an increased sense of brotherhood. It’s disheartening to read about these bishops getting into spats with each other, fighting, and hurting the Church and Her flock. But we must never become desolate. Desolation is best fought when we stand together against such behavior, when we support and love each other, and pray with each other.

We as the laity have an important role in the Church ourselves. While we can’t directly change policies and laws at the top, we can represent to the world what we hope God is always working in us. We can stand firm for the values that the Church represents, even when our bishops and clergy do not do so themselves and thus cause Her scandal.

[Lost Memories]

Some thoughts about the abuse crisis:

The times

I should preface this all by saying this isn’t normal, and it’s not inherent to the Church. It hasn’t always been this way, and it can and must be fixed. Realistically, it’s in all our interests to acknowledge that. We cannot ignore that this scandal is part of a wider pattern of scandals in Western institutions in the late 20th century – Hollywood, British entertainment, and a whole host of other institutions.

Ross Douthat wrote about the role of the 1970s in this – a time when all aspects of traditional sexual morality were being broken down, with no respect for power relations or basic human decency. It was ‘free love’ for the powerful, whether their targets wanted it or not. Hence the acceptance of the Paedophile Information Exchange by many British civil liberties campaigners. Or Danny Cohn-Bendit’s accounts of erotic encounters with children. Or Bernie Sanders’ rape fantasies. Or Roman Polanski. I could go on. That’s the environment in which the evil in our Church spread.

But we must also recognise that this is still a uniquely Catholic issue. The scale of abuse, cover-ups, and silence in the PA report is shocking. I’ll go over other specifics below, but on the generational side of things, we need old bishops out and new bishops in. All mandatory resignations at 75 should be accepted immediately, at least for every bishop currently incumbent. Anyone found to have covered up should obviously also go without delay.

Every abuser, every cover-upper, should either face criminal justice or, failing that, be removed from all public duties and sent to a remote monastery to live the rest of their days in penance. The rest should just withdraw from public life and stay silent after retirement. This generation has failed; we don’t need them any more.

In their place should come new, young bishops. The old guard should have next to no say in their selection. The new bishops should have a strong will and a strong record of personal holiness and integrity, and I’d pay particular attention to those who have lived in austerity and community. Oratorians, Dominicans, and so on.

Bishops’ conferences

The decision at Vatican II to introduce ‘collegiality’ to the Church, and grant vast swathes of autonomy to national bishops’ conferences at the expense of the Vatican, couldn’t have come at a worse time. It created powerful new bureaucracies outside the Papacy, staffed by bishops who were fiercely protective of their own territory, their own autonomy, and their own reputation as a conference.

It’s self-government by bishops. Ineffective at rooting out bad bishops; a conduit for worst practice; and a barrier to attempts from Rome to impose best practice. It’s notoriously difficult for the Vatican to get bishops, and especially bishops’ conferences, to follow directives they don’t like on matters like the liturgy, the Ordinariate, and suchlike. How on Earth can we expect the Vatican to have had any more success in getting them to deal properly with clerical sex abuse?

The answer to this issue is simple – the Vatican needs to take back control. Bishops’ conferences are a failed experiment and they should be at least gutted, or preferably abolished altogether.

The Vatican

Obviously we also need a functioning Vatican to actually impose best practice, and I’ll give a basic gestalt on my viewpoint on how it’s failed in recent decades. This scandal became more prominent in the 1990s, just as John Paul II’s faculties were declining, which left a horrendous power vacuum in the Vatican. This enabled, for instance, Cardinal Sodano to protect the villainous Fr Maciel.

The then Cardinal Ratzinger’s attempt to make the issue an ill-fitting part of the CDF’s remit was well-intended, but didn’t work – which goes for most of Benedict XVI’s actions here. He was always a theologian, not an effective administrator or reformer. I am coming round to the theory that he was essentially forced out of office by elements in the Vatican who were resistant to reform – both on this issue and more broadly.

The reform we’d hoped for in 2013 certainly hasn’t happened – if anything, it’s gone the other way. Francis’ mishandling of a number of cases – Fr Inzoli, Bishop Barros, Cardinal Mahony, Cardinal Danneels, the Honduran seminaries – signifies naivety, complacency, and a misplaced loyalty to his allies and friends.
We need Francis to clear house in the Vatican, just as must be done in the episcopacy. He should also use his own reputation for austerity for good – how about requiring everyone else in the Vatican to live simply? That should deter many of those who aren’t serious.

Factionalism

The Church has been gripped by an internal culture war since Vatican II. In fact, since before then – after all, Vatican II had to come from somewhere. The abuse and the cover-ups cover both sides of the culture war (see Cardinal Wuerl and Bishop Timlin in the PA report alone), and both sides of the culture war want this filth out of the Church.

The problem is that they have very different ideas on how to do it. The liberal side has, of course, got the might of the secular media, secular authorities, and public opinion among non-Catholics and nominal Catholics on its side, but there we are. Either way, both sides have used the scandal to bash the other side with.

And each faction goes on the defensive too. It’s no accident that Francis’ biggest liberal cheerleaders – Fr James Martin, Fr Rosica, Cardinal Wuerl – have been playing this recent scandal down as much as possible. It’s no surprise, therefore, that bishops of each faction have been so eager to play cover-up lest the scandal give the other side a W. Literally letting your priests escape justice for raping children to own the libs/trads (delete as appropriate).

The solution to this issue is harder – at least if we discount ‘let my side win’. But I think it should involve people on both sides of the Catholic culture war coming together to agree on a list of actions that need to be taken. And that should start with disowning the creeps and cowards on our own sides.

Thanks for the detailed analysis.

[Claorica]

Christ gives us a clear cut answer to anyone who abuses a child.

Millstone. Rope. Neck. Ocean.

[Philjia]

Christ gives us a clear cut answer to anyone who abuses a child.

Millstone. Rope. Neck. Ocean.

Ah yes, the well known bible verse where Jesus explains how to execute paedophiles.

[Tarsonis]

Christ gives us a clear cut answer to anyone who abuses a child.

Millstone. Rope. Neck. Ocean.

You might want to check your translation.

[Hakons]

Thinking more about the role of bishops and the "changing times", christianity as a whole (and the church by relation) should be about being the vanguard of the moral discourse, and not just adapting to the times, which means lagging behind. There is already politics for adapting to the times, christianity should look more far ahead than that.
But the feel is that in the last decades christianity in the west has been more passive or defensive. (if not even submissive, in some branches)

No idea about the other branches, but as catholic I wonder if the second council was ineffective, if it was badly timed, or if it is yet not understood and applied.

The Church also seems to lag behind secular investigators when it comes to finding abusive clergy. Instead of waiting for a newspaper or a court report to unveil massive amounts of abuse, the Church should launch her own comprehensive investigation. It seems many Church officials are more fearful of media attention than improving the conduct of the clergy. In other words, they fear the media more than they fear God. The Church would be doing so much better if an investigation/inquisition of sorts found abusive clergy, loudly denounced their conduct, and either set up a kind of public penance or submitted the abusers to state authorities.

[Forestavia]

Christ gives us a clear cut answer to anyone who abuses a child.

Millstone. Rope. Neck. Ocean.

You might want to check your translation.

Lol!

--------------
The only thing I have to say about this topic is that I find it interesting in Luke 18:15-17, the disciples rebuked people for bringing children to see Jesus. Even Christ's own disciples didn't see the value of children. But the Master responded to their ignorance by saying, "Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

The Catholic church (and any other religious organization suffering in this way) needs to emphasize this teaching. Instead of abusing children, priests should have been learning from them the whole time.

[Stonok]

Christ gives us a clear cut answer to anyone who abuses a child.

Millstone. Rope. Neck. Ocean.

Did he give you this instruction in person?

[Kowani]

Christ gives us a clear cut answer to anyone who abuses a child.

Millstone. Rope. Neck. Ocean.

Did he give you this instruction in person?

Yes, he appeared on a piece of toast to do so.

[Salus Maior]

Christ gives us a clear cut answer to anyone who abuses a child.

Millstone. Rope. Neck. Ocean.

You might want to check your translation.

Well, we could always do what St. Basil the Great said we should do.

“Any cleric or monk who seduces young men or boys, or who is apprehended in kissing or in any shameful situation, shall be publicly flogged and shall lose his clerical tonsure. Thus shorn, he shall be disgraced by spitting in his face, bound in iron chains, wasted by six months of close confinement, and for three days each week put on barley bread given him toward evening. Following this period, he shall spend a further six months living in a small segregated courtyard in custody of a spiritual elder, kept busy with manual labor and prayer, subjected to vigils and prayers, forced to walk at all times in the company of two spiritual brothers, never again allowed to associate with young men.”

[Tarsonis]

You might want to check your translation.

Well, we could always do what St. Basil the Great said we should do.

“Any cleric or monk who seduces young men or boys, or who is apprehended in kissing or in any shameful situation, shall be publicly flogged and shall lose his clerical tonsure. Thus shorn, he shall be disgraced by spitting in his face, bound in iron chains, wasted by six months of close confinement, and for three days each week put on barley bread given him toward evening. Following this period, he shall spend a further six months living in a small segregated courtyard in custody of a spiritual elder, kept busy with manual labor and prayer, subjected to vigils and prayers, forced to walk at all times in the company of two spiritual brothers, never again allowed to associate with young men.”

I shared this on my Facebook. Im happy to wield the switch

[Tarsonis]

Christ gives us a clear cut answer to anyone who abuses a child.

Millstone. Rope. Neck. Ocean.

Did he give you this instruction in person?

[Luminesa]

You might want to check your translation.

Well, we could always do what St. Basil the Great said we should do.

“Any cleric or monk who seduces young men or boys, or who is apprehended in kissing or in any shameful situation, shall be publicly flogged and shall lose his clerical tonsure. Thus shorn, he shall be disgraced by spitting in his face, bound in iron chains, wasted by six months of close confinement, and for three days each week put on barley bread given him toward evening. Following this period, he shall spend a further six months living in a small segregated courtyard in custody of a spiritual elder, kept busy with manual labor and prayer, subjected to vigils and prayers, forced to walk at all times in the company of two spiritual brothers, never again allowed to associate with young men.”

Put pedophiles in solitary confinement AND hard and prayerful labor? I like it.

[Diopolis]

Protestant preachers and Rabbis can be married, and sexual abuse and scandals still happen.

Rescinding celibacy isn't going to fix all the Catholic Church's problems in this regard.

Not at the same rate as Catholic priests.

Who don’t abuse at the same rate as (generally married)scoutmasters.
This is why we should’ve cracked down on homosexuality in the clergy long ago.

[Diopolis]

There’s a universal Christian morality that doesn’t change. The moral variances come from applying said morality in changing conditions. Today we think of Children as an imperishable ressource that must be protected at all costs. That wasn’t the case a mere 120 years ago, where children, especially orphans, were seen as disposable sources of labor. Children barely had more rights and standing than animals in that regard.

There have always been priests who have engaged in sexual scandal, going back hundreds of years. This was considered along the same lines, more the priests are breaking their vows rather than priests are wounding and terrorizing kids.

Post industrialization, booming market economy and declining fertility rates have altered the perception of children in the social consciousness. Which is why in the early 20th century reports of these events started to become a serious issue, and public knowledge.


Couple this with two major world wars that killed decimated the population, and there was dramatic shift in theological and moral sentiments towards the world. Churches starting cooperating, V2 was called, etc. The prevailing view changed from “this world is a meat grinder” to “we can make this world a better place”. Part of what we’re seeing with these incidents is a prevelancy from Old Guard priests, who came into a Church that had a culture the world quickly veered away from.

In the next 100 years, I suspect these incidents will all but disappear,... provided necessary steps are taken of course.

And a lot of the abusers, particularly some of the bigger names in the scandal like McCarrick, were modernists who backed V2, liturgical reforms, "reinterpreting" teachings, etc. It's not an issue with Traditionalist Catholics, at least not alone.

It seems worst in the sort of para-traditionalist/neoconservative groups- Lincoln, legion of Christ, etc- followed by liberal modernists. The SSPX is, to my knowledge, the only group that actually initiated the process to defrock it’s own priests with credible accusations against them.

[Tarsonis]

Not at the same rate as Catholic priests.

Who don’t abuse at the same rate as (generally married)scoutmasters.
This is why we should’ve cracked down on homosexuality in the clergy long ago.

Except for, you know, that having nothing to do with pedophilia.