The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Tarsonis]

People often fail to account that the 20th century was a period of rapid moral development brought about by industrialization and a calamitous wars, and post war periods.

[Blanco-Campeon]

I've moved into my college dorm and have settled down enough to have time to post again. As you know I have the intention of converting to Catholicism, though I'm not really sure how to get the ball rolling. Should I just walk to a nearby Church and ask about mass times? Should I try to find a Catholic friend to go with? Should I contact a local Church by email/phone and ask them what I should do?



Why? Celibacy doesn't make one a pedophile.

It's not exactly groundbreaking psychology that intense social and sexual isolation (which Catholic priests have time-and-time again been shown to suffer from in every medical study done on them) leads to stranger and stranger sexual interests, as well as to damage of an individual's ability to judge right and wrong.

This is why I think the Church needs to let more diocesan priests live in community. The scandal has really opened the eyes of many people to the modernist and Lavender Mafia takeover of parts of the Church.

[Philjia]

It's not exactly groundbreaking psychology that intense social and sexual isolation (which Catholic priests have time-and-time again been shown to suffer from in every medical study done on them) leads to stranger and stranger sexual interests, as well as to damage of an individual's ability to judge right and wrong.

This is why I think the Church needs to let more diocesan priests live in community. The scandal has really opened the eyes of many people to the modernist and Lavender Mafia takeover of parts of the Church.

The catholic obsession with guilt and strict opposition to homosexuality probably goes some way to explaining why so many gay catholics end up as clergymen molesting choirboys.

[Tarsonis]

It's not exactly groundbreaking psychology that intense social and sexual isolation (which Catholic priests have time-and-time again been shown to suffer from in every medical study done on them) leads to stranger and stranger sexual interests, as well as to damage of an individual's ability to judge right and wrong.

This is why I think the Church needs to let more diocesan priests live in community. The scandal has really opened the eyes of many people to the modernist and Lavender Mafia takeover of parts of the Church.

Lavender mafia?

[Philjia]

This is why I think the Church needs to let more diocesan priests live in community. The scandal has really opened the eyes of many people to the modernist and Lavender Mafia takeover of parts of the Church.

Lavender mafia?

Derogatory term for gay rights advocates.

[Salus Maior]

This is why I think the Church needs to let more diocesan priests live in community. The scandal has really opened the eyes of many people to the modernist and Lavender Mafia takeover of parts of the Church.

The catholic obsession with guilt and strict opposition to homosexuality probably goes some way to explaining why so many gay catholics end up as clergymen molesting choirboys.

So you're jumping on the "blame the homosexuals" bandwagon now?

Because I really don't think you want to say that pedophilia goes hand in hand with homosexuality.

[Philjia]

The catholic obsession with guilt and strict opposition to homosexuality probably goes some way to explaining why so many gay catholics end up as clergymen molesting choirboys.

So you're jumping on the "blame the homosexuals" bandwagon now?

Because I really don't think you want to say that pedophilia goes hand in hand with homosexuality.

Only if you spend their childhood warping their minds into thinking that they're aberrant.

[Blanco-Campeon]

This is why I think the Church needs to let more diocesan priests live in community. The scandal has really opened the eyes of many people to the modernist and Lavender Mafia takeover of parts of the Church.

The catholic obsession with guilt and strict opposition to homosexuality probably goes some way to explaining why so many gay catholics end up as clergymen molesting choirboys.

If vocations directors and seminaries actually were in strict opposition to homosexuality, then Catholics with a history of same-sex attractions and actions would never be admitted to the priesthood.

[Tarsonis]

The catholic obsession with guilt and strict opposition to homosexuality probably goes some way to explaining why so many gay catholics end up as clergymen molesting choirboys.

If vocations directors and seminaries actually were in strict opposition to homosexuality, then Catholics with a history of same-sex attractions and actions would never be admitted to the priesthood.

The only problem of course being, that it’s completely unrelated to pedaphilia.

Homosexuality and Pedophila are not the same thing #1. #2 both girls and boys were molested. Meaning this isn’t limited to same-sex incidents.

[Tarsonis]

This is why I think the Church needs to let more diocesan priests live in community. The scandal has really opened the eyes of many people to the modernist and Lavender Mafia takeover of parts of the Church.

The catholic obsession with guilt and strict opposition to homosexuality probably goes some way to explaining why so many gay catholics end up as clergymen molesting choirboys.

There’s a lot of complicating issues, most of which people don’t want to get into, for fear of being called an apologist most likely, so it’s easier to just bash the church .

[Salus Maior]

People often fail to account that the 20th century was a period of rapid moral development brought about by industrialization and a calamitous wars, and post war periods.

What does that have to do with anything, Tars? How does that even help?

If we don't believe in a universal Christian morality that's always been true, what even is there?

[Philjia]

The catholic obsession with guilt and strict opposition to homosexuality probably goes some way to explaining why so many gay catholics end up as clergymen molesting choirboys.

There’s a lot of complicating issues, most of which people don’t want to get into, for fear of being called an apologist most likely, so it’s easier to just bash the church .

Because the church is more or less inherently corrupt. You've got an institution who's credibility lies upon it being the infallible instrument of Gods will, that is filled with people who've been horribly fucked up by catholic upbringings, so when they inevitably behave badly nobody wants to expose or reprimand them because it makes the church look bad.

[Tarsonis]

People often fail to account that the 20th century was a period of rapid moral development brought about by industrialization and a calamitous wars, and post war periods.

What does that have to do with anything, Tars? How does that even help?

If we don't believe in a universal Christian morality that's always been true, what even is there?

There’s a universal Christian morality that doesn’t change. The moral variances come from applying said morality in changing conditions. Today we think of Children as an imperishable ressource that must be protected at all costs. That wasn’t the case a mere 120 years ago, where children, especially orphans, were seen as disposable sources of labor. Children barely had more rights and standing than animals in that regard.

There have always been priests who have engaged in sexual scandal, going back hundreds of years. This was considered along the same lines, more the priests are breaking their vows rather than priests are wounding and terrorizing kids.

Post industrialization, booming market economy and declining fertility rates have altered the perception of children in the social consciousness. Which is why in the early 20th century reports of these events started to become a serious issue, and public knowledge.


Couple this with two major world wars that killed decimated the population, and there was dramatic shift in theological and moral sentiments towards the world. Churches starting cooperating, V2 was called, etc. The prevailing view changed from “this world is a meat grinder” to “we can make this world a better place”. Part of what we’re seeing with these incidents is a prevelancy from Old Guard priests, who came into a Church that had a culture the world quickly veered away from.

In the next 100 years, I suspect these incidents will all but disappear,... provided necessary steps are taken of course.

[Tarsonis]

There’s a lot of complicating issues, most of which people don’t want to get into, for fear of being called an apologist most likely, so it’s easier to just bash the church .

Because the church is more or less inherently corrupt. You've got an institution who's credibility lies upon it being the infallible instrument of Gods will, that is filled with people who've been horribly fucked up by catholic upbringings, so when they inevitably behave badly nobody wants to expose or reprimand them because it makes the church look bad.

Yeah except nobody should consider the church the infallible instrument of God’s will.

[Kowani]

Because the church is more or less inherently corrupt. You've got an institution who's credibility lies upon it being the infallible instrument of Gods will, that is filled with people who've been horribly fucked up by catholic upbringings, so when they inevitably behave badly nobody wants to expose or reprimand them because it makes the church look bad.

Yeah except nobody should consider the church the infallible instrument of God’s will.

It doesn’t help that they present themselves that way. Note that although the Pope is the only one who can claim infallibility (and only under certain circumstances), the Church doesn’t spend a lot of time addressing the fact that the institution can fail. Instead, when it does get called out, the blame is always pushed onto individual offenders, and the pattern remains.

[Tarsonis]

Yeah except nobody should consider the church the infallible instrument of God’s will.

It doesn’t help that they present themselves that way. Note that although the Pope is the only one who can claim infallibility (and only under certain circumstances), the Church doesn’t spend a lot of time addressing the fact that the institution can fail. Instead, when it does get called out, the blame is always pushed onto individual offenders, and the pattern remains.

The Church is often slow to reform.

[Blanco-Campeon]

There’s a lot of complicating issues, most of which people don’t want to get into, for fear of being called an apologist most likely, so it’s easier to just bash the church .

Because the church is more or less inherently corrupt. You've got an institution who's credibility lies upon it being the infallible instrument of Gods will, that is filled with people who've been horribly fucked up by catholic upbringings, so when they inevitably behave badly nobody wants to expose or reprimand them because it makes the church look bad.

The Church traditionally had a way of dealing with evil shepherds: ritual degradation

[Kowani]

It doesn’t help that they present themselves that way. Note that although the Pope is the only one who can claim infallibility (and only under certain circumstances), the Church doesn’t spend a lot of time addressing the fact that the institution can fail. Instead, when it does get called out, the blame is always pushed onto individual offenders, and the pattern remains.

The Church is often slow to reform.

When no one at the highest level is under 60, it’s hard to get anyone to change their minds.

[Salus Maior]

What does that have to do with anything, Tars? How does that even help?

If we don't believe in a universal Christian morality that's always been true, what even is there?

There’s a universal Christian morality that doesn’t change. The moral variances come from applying said morality in changing conditions. Today we think of Children as an imperishable ressource that must be protected at all costs. That wasn’t the case a mere 120 years ago, where children, especially orphans, were seen as disposable sources of labor. Children barely had more rights and standing than animals in that regard.

There have always been priests who have engaged in sexual scandal, going back hundreds of years. This was considered along the same lines, more the priests are breaking their vows rather than priests are wounding and terrorizing kids.

Post industrialization, booming market economy and declining fertility rates have altered the perception of children in the social consciousness. Which is why in the early 20th century reports of these events started to become a serious issue, and public knowledge.


Couple this with two major world wars that killed decimated the population, and there was dramatic shift in theological and moral sentiments towards the world. Churches starting cooperating, V2 was called, etc. The prevailing view changed from “this world is a meat grinder” to “we can make this world a better place”. Part of what we’re seeing with these incidents is a prevelancy from Old Guard priests, who came into a Church that had a culture the world quickly veered away from.

In the next 100 years, I suspect these incidents will all but disappear,... provided necessary steps are taken of course.

And a lot of the abusers, particularly some of the bigger names in the scandal like McCarrick, were modernists who backed V2, liturgical reforms, "reinterpreting" teachings, etc. It's not an issue with Traditionalist Catholics, at least not alone.

[Bienenhalde]

The catholic obsession with guilt and strict opposition to homosexuality probably goes some way to explaining why so many gay catholics end up as clergymen molesting choirboys.

If vocations directors and seminaries actually were in strict opposition to homosexuality, then Catholics with a history of same-sex attractions and actions would never be admitted to the priesthood.

Yeah, but then you might end up with heterosexual priests abusing young girls. Just singling out men with homosexual attractions will not solve the real problems.

[Tarsonis]

There’s a universal Christian morality that doesn’t change. The moral variances come from applying said morality in changing conditions. Today we think of Children as an imperishable ressource that must be protected at all costs. That wasn’t the case a mere 120 years ago, where children, especially orphans, were seen as disposable sources of labor. Children barely had more rights and standing than animals in that regard.

There have always been priests who have engaged in sexual scandal, going back hundreds of years. This was considered along the same lines, more the priests are breaking their vows rather than priests are wounding and terrorizing kids.

Post industrialization, booming market economy and declining fertility rates have altered the perception of children in the social consciousness. Which is why in the early 20th century reports of these events started to become a serious issue, and public knowledge.


Couple this with two major world wars that killed decimated the population, and there was dramatic shift in theological and moral sentiments towards the world. Churches starting cooperating, V2 was called, etc. The prevailing view changed from “this world is a meat grinder” to “we can make this world a better place”. Part of what we’re seeing with these incidents is a prevelancy from Old Guard priests, who came into a Church that had a culture the world quickly veered away from.

In the next 100 years, I suspect these incidents will all but disappear,... provided necessary steps are taken of course.

And a lot of the abusers, particularly some of the bigger names in the scandal like McCarrick, were modernists who backed V2, liturgical reforms, "reinterpreting" teachings, etc. It's not an issue with Traditionalist Catholics, at least not alone.

Sure, I wasn’t suggesting that it was only Traditionalists, or only modernists. It’s “Old Guard” who were in the church before these changes and perpetuated a culture well after these changes.

[Lost Memories]

When no one at the highest level is under 60, it’s hard to get anyone to change their minds.

Young bishops are an unlikely thing to achieve, since the role requires both recognized achievements and experience, both things which require time. (just read the biography of any recent bishop or pope before they were promoted)
Exceptions may be during persecutions or when there is a shortage of possible candidates, making it less possible to chose the most experienced and capable. Or when there is some political fuckup which directly interferes with the church autonomy.
But anyway, the role of the bishops and the church isn't about "changing their minds", quite the opposite, they have the task of "passing down".

[Blanco-Campeon]

If vocations directors and seminaries actually were in strict opposition to homosexuality, then Catholics with a history of same-sex attractions and actions would never be admitted to the priesthood.

Yeah, but then you might end up with heterosexual priests abusing young girls. Just singling out men with homosexual attractions will not solve the real problems.

The vast majority of victims are male, so it's hardly "singling out" men with same-sex attractions.

[Bienenhalde]

Yeah, but then you might end up with heterosexual priests abusing young girls. Just singling out men with homosexual attractions will not solve the real problems.

The vast majority of victims are male, so it's hardly "singling out" men with same-sex attractions.

Maybe, but keep in mind that gay men may be more likely to enter the priesthood because the Catholic Church forbids same-sex marriage. They are not necessarily more likely to be pedophiles.

[Tarsonis]

Yeah, but then you might end up with heterosexual priests abusing young girls. Just singling out men with homosexual attractions will not solve the real problems.

The vast majority of victims are male, so it's hardly "singling out" men with same-sex attractions.

Still doesn’t change the fact that homosexual is not the tautological equivalent of pedophile.