The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Kowani]

...Even in cultures where sexuality is seen as a bad thing, shit like this happens, and worse. With the exception of Sweden, the 10 countries with most rape live in abject poverty. Plus, even in the US, the amount of rape and sexual assault has gone down. According to a March 2013 report from the U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics, from 1995 to 2010, the estimated annual rate of female rape or sexual assault declined 58%, from 5.0 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older to 2.1 per 1,000. Assaults on young women aged 12–17 declined from 11.3 per 1,000 in 1994-1998 to 4.1 per 1,000 in 2005-2010; assaults on women aged 18–34 also declined over the same period, from 7.0 per 1,000 to 3.7.

Over the last four decades, rape has been declining. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%.

Note that pedophilia is different from rape, but the claim that culture becoming more accepting of sex and sexuality is not really the cause. Case in point, all of the countries with the highest rape rates (with the exception of Sweden) are all heavily Christian, and most of them are Catholic as well.


https://data.unicef.org/topic/child-pro ... -violence/
Note that most of those cultures are very misogynistic, and sexuality is not seen as something good. Another thing of importance is poverty. Note that sexuality is not bad per se, but the idea that a woman’s body is not hers to control is widespread.

Can you give the list of nations here? Last I checked the major countries in terms of rape were in Africa or the Middle East.

That was my point, that highly religious, but more importantly, highly poor, highly violent, or highly misogynistic societies are responsible for far more sexual violence then sexualized Western Culture.

But, here you go. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... /Rape-rate, and they get their stats from here: http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and ... d_rape.xls

[Northern Davincia]

Can you give the list of nations here? Last I checked the major countries in terms of rape were in Africa or the Middle East.

That was my point, that highly religious, but more importantly, highly poor, highly violent, or highly misogynistic societies are responsible for far more sexual violence then sexualized Western Culture.

But, here you go. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... /Rape-rate, and they get their stats from here: http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and ... d_rape.xls

Gracias, but I was perplexed by the statement that all of the top countries were heavily Christian.

[Kowani]

That was my point, that highly religious, but more importantly, highly poor, highly violent, or highly misogynistic societies are responsible for far more sexual violence then sexualized Western Culture.

But, here you go. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... /Rape-rate, and they get their stats from here: http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and ... d_rape.xls

Gracias, but I was perplexed by the statement that all of the top countries were heavily Christian.

De nada. However: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi ... search.svg

Even if we exclude Bermuda since it’s technically not a country, only two of the countries with the 10 highest rape rates (Australia and Sweden) fall below the 2nd highest percentage bracket. Note that unless we mutate and develop psychic powers, it’s impossible to know how many of the responders are actual believers and how many aren’t. However, since this is the best we have.

[Salus Maior]

Why? Celibacy doesn't make one a pedophile.

True. And Catholic priests seldomn are pedophiles - just sadists on a powertrip who enjoy the weakness of their prey. They do not want to fuck kids because they are overcome with lust of love for them - but because they can.

Something in the church attracts those people.

I imagine such is true of many institutions that work directly with children.

[Kowani]

True. And Catholic priests seldomn are pedophiles - just sadists on a powertrip who enjoy the weakness of their prey. They do not want to fuck kids because they are overcome with lust of love for them - but because they can.

Something in the church attracts those people.

I imagine such is true of many institutions that work directly with children.

That’s human nature at work. Whenever someone comes up with something to try and help, Unscrupulous McNomorals jumps on the bandwagon, ready to abuse his newfound power.

[Salus Maior]

I imagine such is true of many institutions that work directly with children.

That’s human nature at work. Whenever someone comes up with something to try and help, Unscrupulous McNomorals jumps on the bandwagon, ready to abuse his newfound power.

I've heard that public schools have had a rather serious problem with abusers, but the data isn't complete enough to say whether it's on par with Priesthood scandals.

Of course that sounds like a deflection from me, but it's not. It doesn't redeem anything, it just shows how awful the world is I guess.

[The Alma Mater]

That’s human nature at work. Whenever someone comes up with something to try and help, Unscrupulous McNomorals jumps on the bandwagon, ready to abuse his newfound power.

I've heard that public schools have had a rather serious problem with abusers, but the data isn't complete enough to say whether it's on par with Priesthood scandals.

It is and it is not. The priesthood keeps records of their abuse, share those with the Vatican and the Vatican then makes efforts tl facilitate and coverup said abuse. Schools do not have such a sick system all the way up the hierarchy, though the number of abused kids might be comparable.

[Kowani]

I've heard that public schools have had a rather serious problem with abusers, but the data isn't complete enough to say whether it's on par with Priesthood scandals.

It is and it is not. The priesthood keeps records of their abuse, share those with the Vatican and the Vatican then makes efforts tl facilitate and coverup said abuse. Schools do not have such a sick system all the way up the hierarchy, though the number of abused kids might be comparable.

Very good point. With the school system, at least in the US, being accused of pedophilia is a death sentence for your career. With the Church...not so much.

[Salus Maior]

It is and it is not. The priesthood keeps records of their abuse, share those with the Vatican and the Vatican then makes efforts tl facilitate and coverup said abuse. Schools do not have such a sick system all the way up the hierarchy, though the number of abused kids might be comparable.

Very good point. With the school system, at least in the US, being accused of pedophilia is a death sentence for your career. With the Church...not so much.

Tbh I don't have a lot of faith in school administrators. They have about as much to lose when it comes to scandals breaking out under their watch as Bishops do, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of them attempted to keep things like that quiet.

Considering priests, Cardinals, and Bishops are losing their positions left and right recently I think that's an unfair assertion for the present.

[The Alma Mater]

Very good point. With the school system, at least in the US, being accused of pedophilia is a death sentence for your career. With the Church...not so much.

Tbh I don't have a lot of faith in school administrators. They have about as much to lose when it comes to scandals breaking out under their watch as Bishops do, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of them attempted to keep things like that quiet.

Considering priests, Cardinals, and Bishops are losing their positions left and right recently I think that's an unfair assertion for the present.

Only when exposed by third.parties. Not because the Vatican has taken any action to get rid of them based on the records they already have or has taken any such action in the past.
On the contrary: the church has always sided with the abusers,intimidating victims, covering up crimes and moving abusers to countries with more easy to bribe cops if they were in danger of the law.

[Salus Maior]

Tbh I don't have a lot of faith in school administrators. They have about as much to lose when it comes to scandals breaking out under their watch as Bishops do, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of them attempted to keep things like that quiet.

Considering priests, Cardinals, and Bishops are losing their positions left and right recently I think that's an unfair assertion for the present.

Only when exposed by third.parties. Not because the Vatican has taken any action to get rid of them based on the records they already have or has taken any such action in the past.
On the contrary: the church has always sided with the abusers,intimidating victims, covering up crimes and moving abusers to countries with more easy to bribe cops if they were in danger of the law.

Yes, and it's a travesty, a mockery.

And Catholics from Traditionalists to modernists want an end put to it.

[Pasong Tirad]

Only when exposed by third.parties. Not because the Vatican has taken any action to get rid of them based on the records they already have or has taken any such action in the past.
On the contrary: the church has always sided with the abusers,intimidating victims, covering up crimes and moving abusers to countries with more easy to bribe cops if they were in danger of the law.

Yes, and it's a travesty, a mockery.

And Catholics from Traditionalists to modernists want an end put to it.

Very much one of the few things that unites all Catholics.

That and that sedevacantists are crazy.

[Minzerland II]

On the topic of the Assumption of Mary, I would like to hear the opinions of the CDT. Do you believe the Virgin Mary died before her assumption, or do you believe she was assumed into heaven alive?

I, for instance, believe she died before her assumption.

There is no 'assumption'.

There is only the Dormition of the Theotokos; or, if you prefer, the Dormition of our Most Holy Lady the Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary.

Why? And how does the Dormition contradict the Assumption?

[The Alma Mater]

Only when exposed by third.parties. Not because the Vatican has taken any action to get rid of them based on the records they already have or has taken any such action in the past.
On the contrary: the church has always sided with the abusers,intimidating victims, covering up crimes and moving abusers to countries with more easy to bribe cops if they were in danger of the law.

Yes, and it's a travesty, a mockery.

And Catholics from Traditionalists to modernists want an end put to it.

Then why is it still going on after 2000 years ?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Yes, and it's a travesty, a mockery.

And Catholics from Traditionalists to modernists want an end put to it.

Then why is it still going on after 2000 years ?

Because however much we may try, and however much we may want, such things will happen, to err is human after all.

[The Alma Mater]

Then why is it still going on after 2000 years ?

Because however much we may try, and however much we may want, such things will happen, to err is human after all.

There is erring and there is creating,maintaining and actively protecting a system to facilitate and reward the bad behaviour for many centuries. Not exactly the same.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

Because however much we may try, and however much we may want, such things will happen, to err is human after all.

There is erring and there is creating,maintaining and actively protecting a system to facilitate and reward the bad behaviour for many centuries. Not exactly the same.

‘Erring’ means to sin, to do wrong, and last I checked, creating, maintaining, and actively protecting a system (although, knowing you, you’re probably referring to the entire Church) that facilitates and rewards bad behaviour (and knowing you, you’d include a bunch of Catholic practices that’s we would say is good here) is considered to be bad.

[Lord Dominator]

So actual question, but how did the Catholic Church get started on priest celibacy in the first place?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Very good point. With the school system, at least in the US, being accused of pedophilia is a death sentence for your career. With the Church...not so much.

Tbh I don't have a lot of faith in school administrators. They have about as much to lose when it comes to scandals breaking out under their watch as Bishops do, I wouldn't be surprised if a number of them attempted to keep things like that quiet.

Considering priests, Cardinals, and Bishops are losing their positions left and right recently I think that's an unfair assertion for the present.

It's a very fair assumption. Both Benedict and Francis are known to have helped cover up scandals when they were Cardinals.

[Salus Maior]

So actual question, but how did the Catholic Church get started on priest celibacy in the first place?

In the early Church both East and West Priests were allowed to be married, however there was a requirement that these married priests would have to abstain from sex the night before doing Mass. This was fine for the East who only do Mass on Sundays, but in the West a tradition started where they did Mass every day. So, for a time Priests could be married, but they had to be effectively celibate while they were married.

Later on, reforms led by the major Western monastic center at Cluny as part of greater reforms to monasteries and the priesthood in general made it so that Priests wouldn't be married at all.

[Salus Maior]

Yes, and it's a travesty, a mockery.

And Catholics from Traditionalists to modernists want an end put to it.

Then why is it still going on after 2000 years ?

You have nothing to back your assertion that things were this bad for the past 2000 years. Let alone a shorter time span than that so you can spare me the bullshit.

But at any rate, the answer is obvious why the movement to stop this is more prevalent now: People didn't know, at least not as far as we do now.

[Philjia]

Then why is it still going on after 2000 years ?

You have nothing to back your assertion that things were this bad for the past 2000 years.

Things were clearly worse in the Medieval period, since the Vatican is no longer filled with prostitutes and illegitimate children, and prominent Catholics aren't buying their way into Heaven, and the pope now believes in God.

Probably.

[Lost Memories]

Things were clearly worse in the Medieval period, since the Vatican is no longer filled with prostitutes and illegitimate children, and prominent Catholics aren't buying their way into Heaven, and the pope now believes in God.

The church, source of human corruption since the birth of christ.
Also, the medieval dank ages and the enlightened classical period.

Good memes.

[Philjia]

Things were clearly worse in the Medieval period, since the Vatican is no longer filled with prostitutes and illegitimate children, and prominent Catholics aren't buying their way into Heaven, and the pope now believes in God.

The church, source of human corruption since the birth of christ.
Also, the medieval dank ages and the enlightened classical period.

Good memes.

Less of a source, more of an enabler.

[Sovaal]

Because however much we may try, and however much we may want, such things will happen, to err is human after all.

There is erring and there is creating,maintaining and actively protecting a system to facilitate and reward the bad behaviour for many centuries. Not exactly the same.

That's pretty much human civilization dude.