The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Lower Nubia]

Not if that dogma is the truth.

And there is no evidence that is the "truth." It is merely one religion amongst many others, and all of them declare their dogma to be the truth.

The statement is conditional on the if, if that dogma is the truth, it's bad to reject it, yes?

[Tarsonis]

I don't quite get what you're objecting to. I never claimed Christ rules from each individual dominion or government. I'm saying, as is consistent with Christian truth, that Christ is King over all these earthly powers, meaning He is above them, and thus we should seek for His will to be enacted in our earthly societies.

One of our readings from today's mass that is probably relevant:
"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." Colossians 1 16:20

My objection is that the Earthly powers are not of Him, they are of this world, and therefore they will not be so in the world to come. I do not believe that Christ would wish to be above the nations. He refused to do it once already.

Paul explicitly says that’s not true

[Luminesa]

Would you like to explain what you meant in your original post?



Viva Cristo Rey!

Recognizing the Kingship of Christ over all nations and governments has probably been the biggest factor in my political development. Realizing secularism isn't neutral, and in many ways harmful, turns a lot of preconceptions upside down. Christ is our King, may His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven.

Tbh very poor choice of words. Christ's dominion is over creation. Christ rejects power over nations and governments because Earthly power is ungodly. It's what's valued by flawed humans, not by God. We have to be careful about attributing kingship over all the nations of the world because the wording is very similar to what it was that Satan told Christ to do, but that Christ rejected.

The thing is that Satan never could have actually given Jesus any power. The Devil can twist things to look as though they grant power, when really they give slavery. Jesus already had power over the world, and is King simply by being. And anyway, correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t you believe that monarchy specifically is from God? At least with the Tsar?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Tbh very poor choice of words. Christ's dominion is over creation. Christ rejects power over nations and governments because Earthly power is ungodly. It's what's valued by flawed humans, not by God. We have to be careful about attributing kingship over all the nations of the world because the wording is very similar to what it was that Satan told Christ to do, but that Christ rejected.

The thing is that Satan never could have actually given Jesus any power. The Devil can twist things to look as though they grant power, when really they give slavery. Jesus already had power over the world, and is King simply by being. And anyway, correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t you believe that monarchy specifically is from God? At least with the Tsar?

The monarchy can be an icon of Christ, in that the monarch sacrifices for their people, but the monarchy is still not of Christ. This world will pass, and we should not focus on how it will be governed.

[Luminesa]

The thing is that Satan never could have actually given Jesus any power. The Devil can twist things to look as though they grant power, when really they give slavery. Jesus already had power over the world, and is King simply by being. And anyway, correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t you believe that monarchy specifically is from God? At least with the Tsar?

The monarchy can be an icon of Christ, in that the monarch sacrifices for their people, but the monarchy is still not of Christ. This world will pass, and we should not focus on how it will be governed.

We do have to worry how it is governed, because how it is governed is very much a matter of the duty of the people put in charge. And that duty is not only a physical duty, but a personal duty. Every ruler will be judged on whether or not they took care of their people.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The monarchy can be an icon of Christ, in that the monarch sacrifices for their people, but the monarchy is still not of Christ. This world will pass, and we should not focus on how it will be governed.

We do have to worry how it is governed, because how it is governed is very much a matter of the duty of the people put in charge. And that duty is not only a physical duty, but a personal duty. Every ruler will be judged on whether or not they took care of their people.

Yes, but that is not our (the governed) concern. It is a concern for the powerful, and we are the powerless. The powerful are made worse for their sacrifice, it's not an honor, it's a burden which is borne to the detriment of those in power, and it would be better if it were not so. Men were not made to rule other men, but to be united through love with Christ, and thus ruling other men is not a good thing and is spiritually harmful to the one who does it.

[Luminesa]

We do have to worry how it is governed, because how it is governed is very much a matter of the duty of the people put in charge. And that duty is not only a physical duty, but a personal duty. Every ruler will be judged on whether or not they took care of their people.

Yes, but that is not our (the governed) concern. It is a concern for the powerful, and we are the powerless. The powerful are made worse for their sacrifice, it's not an honor, it's a burden which is borne to the detriment of those in power, and it would be better if it were not so. Men were not made to rule other men, but to be united through love with Christ, and thus ruling other men is not a good thing and is spiritually harmful to the one who does it.

Eh. Unfortunately as Chesterton once said, government is a necessary evil.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

We do have to worry how it is governed, because how it is governed is very much a matter of the duty of the people put in charge. And that duty is not only a physical duty, but a personal duty. Every ruler will be judged on whether or not they took care of their people.

Yes, but that is not our (the governed) concern. It is a concern for the powerful, and we are the powerless. The powerful are made worse for their sacrifice, it's not an honor, it's a burden which is borne to the detriment of those in power, and it would be better if it were not so. Men were not made to rule other men, but to be united through love with Christ, and thus ruling other men is not a good thing and is spiritually harmful to the one who does it.

I didn't know you were an anarchist...
EDIT: In hindsight, you have it in your sig. Still, it's weird, because I knew you were a monarchist, which is mostly incompatible with anarchy. I know that anarcho-monarchism is a thing, but that doesn't make your ideology any less confusing.

[Benuty]

Yes, but that is not our (the governed) concern. It is a concern for the powerful, and we are the powerless. The powerful are made worse for their sacrifice, it's not an honor, it's a burden which is borne to the detriment of those in power, and it would be better if it were not so. Men were not made to rule other men, but to be united through love with Christ, and thus ruling other men is not a good thing and is spiritually harmful to the one who does it.

I didn't know you were an anarchist...
EDIT: In hindsight, you have it in your sig. Still, it's weird, because I knew you were a monarchist, which is mostly incompatible with anarchy. I know that anarcho-monarchism is a thing, but that doesn't make your ideology any less confusing.

To him, If I may glean just a little off, its more about monarchism as the symbol than actual power. Just as the emperor is the symbol of Japan compared to the King in Thailand who has actual power.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I didn't know you were an anarchist...
EDIT: In hindsight, you have it in your sig. Still, it's weird, because I knew you were a monarchist, which is mostly incompatible with anarchy. I know that anarcho-monarchism is a thing, but that doesn't make your ideology any less confusing.

To him, If I may glean just a little off, its more about monarchism as the symbol than actual power. Just as the emperor is the symbol of Japan compared to the King in Thailand who has actual power.

Yes.

[Hakons]

We do have to worry how it is governed, because how it is governed is very much a matter of the duty of the people put in charge. And that duty is not only a physical duty, but a personal duty. Every ruler will be judged on whether or not they took care of their people.

Yes, but that is not our (the governed) concern. It is a concern for the powerful, and we are the powerless. The powerful are made worse for their sacrifice, it's not an honor, it's a burden which is borne to the detriment of those in power, and it would be better if it were not so. Men were not made to rule other men, but to be united through love with Christ, and thus ruling other men is not a good thing and is spiritually harmful to the one who does it.

There isn't a clear cut distinction between the governor and the governored. Public society does have rulers, but public interaction is governed by a wide degree of activities and thus the people that influence these activities. It is therefor necessary that we use our sphere of influence, no matter how little influence that is, to steer society towards the will of God. I do agree that power is a burden. The more responsibility we have over society, the more we will be judged over the faults of that society.

[Salus Maior]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfxZTMF0dGU Appropriate for the feast day.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

And there is no evidence that is the "truth." It is merely one religion amongst many others, and all of them declare their dogma to be the truth.

Very Masonic thinking there that it's only one among several religious, all equal.

It would have had clout in my nation too since it were established on Masonic ideals based in the French and American Revolutions yet Masons themselves from America betrayed their fellow Filipino Masons in the Philippine-Amrican War.

You know what kind slippery slope your relativism has caused?

Anyway what is sure though is that the Catholic Priests "Gomburza" willingly died for Filipinos in the aftermath of the Cavite Mutiny whereas the First Philippine Republic's brother Masons in the USA and France betrayed the Republic in the Philippine American War.

Much of that does not apply to me as I'm not a Freemason.

[The Union of the West]

I’m being chrismated next month

[Luminesa]

I’m being chrismated next month

Eyyyyy, congratulations!

[Australian rePublic]

I have a question for you guys- Constantine the Great fought many wars, right? Would have he been canonised if he never won of those wars and therefore never legalised Christianity? Is his whole canonisation based on his ability to win wars? I mean, I know the whole "Εν Τουτω Νικα", but you, I'm just what would have been his status in the church, had lost the wars, and therefore, never got to legalise Christianity, but everything remained the same. I don't believe that God canonises people who don't deserve it, but it's just something i've been thinking about

[Australian rePublic]

I’m being chrismated next month

Congrats!

[United Muscovite Nations]

I have a question for you guys- Constantine the Great fought many wars, right? Would have he been canonised if he never won of those wars and therefore never legalised Christianity? Is his whole canonisation based on his ability to win wars? I mean, I know the whole "Εν Τουτω Νικα", but you, I'm just what would have been his status in the church, had lost the wars, and therefore, never got to legalise Christianity, but everything remained the same. I don't believe that God canonises people who don't deserve it, but it's just something i've been thinking about

Tbh Constantine's canonization is one of the few entirely political canonizations, he was legitimately a terrible person who doesn't deserve to be considered a saint.

[Salus Maior]

I have a question for you guys- Constantine the Great fought many wars, right? Would have he been canonised if he never won of those wars and therefore never legalised Christianity? Is his whole canonisation based on his ability to win wars? I mean, I know the whole "Εν Τουτω Νικα", but you, I'm just what would have been his status in the church, had lost the wars, and therefore, never got to legalise Christianity, but everything remained the same. I don't believe that God canonises people who don't deserve it, but it's just something i've been thinking about

Tbh Constantine's canonization is one of the few entirely political canonizations, he was legitimately a terrible person who doesn't deserve to be considered a saint.

Plus, may have been an Arian heretic.

[Australian rePublic]

I have a question for you guys- Constantine the Great fought many wars, right? Would have he been canonised if he never won of those wars and therefore never legalised Christianity? Is his whole canonisation based on his ability to win wars? I mean, I know the whole "Εν Τουτω Νικα", but you, I'm just what would have been his status in the church, had lost the wars, and therefore, never got to legalise Christianity, but everything remained the same. I don't believe that God canonises people who don't deserve it, but it's just something i've been thinking about

Tbh Constantine's canonization is one of the few entirely political canonizations, he was legitimately a terrible person who doesn't deserve to be considered a saint.

Why God allow that? I mean, firstly, obviously, all saints are in heaven, right? I'm not here to make judgement about who's in Heaven and who's in Hell, and neither is anyone else. Why can't we let God decide these things and speak on His own behalf. That's not to say that God should send him to hell, that's His choice, but His choice, not that of any other else. Now, if Constantine is in Heaven

Tbh Constantine's canonization is one of the few entirely political canonizations, he was legitimately a terrible person who doesn't deserve to be considered a saint.

Plus, may have been an Arian heretic.

I've dabbled in theology and think we over-hype herecy. Theology is difficult. That's not to say that we should commend herecy, the church has made that very clear over the past 2,000 years, but, but, it still doesn't mean that we should just yell at heretics and be quick to condemn them. Sure, we know that Arianism is wrong, but we do, people over 1,700 years of hindsight. The smartest people in the world who were arguing about Arianism didn't have that power of hindsight. They were trying to interpret the Bible, one of the hardest things anyone could do. We, still, to this day argue about how to interpret the Bible, so imagine how hard it would have been 1700 years ago, with 1700 years less knowledge. I think we over-did the punishment of heretics, as long as they were willing to admit they were willing to admit they were wrong. Oddly, when I explained this to my educated late grandmother, she thought I had a good point.

[The Union of the West]

I’m being chrismated next month

Congrats!

I’m being chrismated next month

Eyyyyy, congratulations!

Thanks guys!

[Arachkya]

I will have to google what ''Chrismated'' now.

[The Union of the West]

I will have to google what ''Chrismated'' now.

It means I’m joining the Orthodox Church. It’s the Eastern equivalent of confirmation.

[Arachkya]

I will have to google what ''Chrismated'' now.

It means I’m joining the Orthodox Church. It’s the Eastern equivalent of confirmation.

Oh, right, beautiful word, it is like an incantation.

I have just gone through my first communion.

[Minachia]

I’m being chrismated next month

That's cool.