The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[United Muscovite Nations]

Doesn't work when there is no spacetime (remember, space and time didn't exist before the Big Bang, in fact, we can't even conceive of a "before" the Big Bang because time didn't exist).

If the creators are beyond space and time, there is nothing stopping the causal chain from looping back on itself

The causal chain is caused by spacetime. Outside of spacetime, there's not even a reason to have a causal chain, because there wouldn't be time at all. Such a being could observe the past, present, and future simultaneously.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Well, each creator has a beginning; the previous creator. Saying that an infinite regression is absurd because it does not have a first creator is just like saying that an eternally existing entity is absurd as it does not have a beginning.

No, an infinite regress is absurd because if all things have a beginning through which an infinite regress occurs, it logically begs the question about the cause, of the cause, of the cause... ad infinitum. The problem derives from the fact, that if it has a beginning it has a cause, therefore to stop an infinite regress, you need an uncaused cause, but who could that be but a God?

1. FTFY, so you don't jump to the conclusion that it is the Judeo-Christian God

2. Another solution is a causal loop, which if the causes are beyond the limitations of space and time, can exist.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

If the creators are beyond space and time, there is nothing stopping the causal chain from looping back on itself

The causal chain is caused by spacetime. Outside of spacetime, there's not even a reason to have a causal chain, because there wouldn't be time at all. Such a being could observe the past, present, and future simultaneously.

That's what a causal loop is - the past, present and future simultaneously.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

If the creators are beyond space and time, there is nothing stopping the causal chain from looping back on itself

The creators?

The creators of the causal chain which created each other, not your "first creator".

[Lost Memories]

Saying that an infinite regression is absurd because it does not have a first creator is just like saying that an eternally existing entity is absurd as it does not have a beginning.

No, an infinite regression is an absurd answer to the question of the origin because it doesn't answer the question. It is a non-answer.
It just postpones giving the answer to infinite, but even in its absurdity the need for a first cause doesn't change.

The first cause is a question. The infinite regression is a non-answer to it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The causal chain is caused by spacetime. Outside of spacetime, there's not even a reason to have a causal chain, because there wouldn't be time at all. Such a being could observe the past, present, and future simultaneously.

That's what a causal loop is - the past, present and future simultaneously.

The difference is that one such event has its origins in spacetime. You can't have a causal loop when there is no spacetime.

[Lower Nubia]

No, an infinite regress is absurd because if all things have a beginning through which an infinite regress occurs, it logically begs the question about the cause, of the cause, of the cause... ad infinitum. The problem derives from the fact, that if it has a beginning it has a cause, therefore to stop an infinite regress, you need an uncaused cause, but who could that be but a God?

1. FTFY, so you don't jump to the conclusion that it is the Judeo-Christian God

2. Another solution is a causal loop, which if the causes are beyond the limitations of space and time, can exist.

1. Is irrelevant it just states that atheism is false, I can choose my God(s) later, but at least I now know not to bother with Materialism.

2. The causal loop begs the question, because let us present a sequence: A, which pushes B, which pushes C, (eventually you get to Y), Y then pushes, Z. Z, then pushes A, but what causes Z to push A? If A is dependent on Z and Z is dependent on Y, then what is the origin of these movements? Each letter is dependent on the one before, but to be uncaused you can't be dependent on anything, because your essence must be reality itself, eternity itself, but if A is moved by Z, then A's essence isn't reality and eternity, but a quality of Z. While Z's quality is also derived from Y, therefore they cannot be uncaused caused, because they are all caused by causes.

[The Archregimancy]

I should note that I'm not a professor, but I do have a job interview Monday in Boston so, any prayers would be much appreciated.

As the only actual (now former) university lecturer (occasionally) frequenting the thread....

Good luck!

Really; my thoughts will be with you.

[Hakons]

Didn't we agree the last time CTM diverted to this discussion that it was not a valid topic for this thread?

[Lost Memories]

Didn't we agree the last time CTM diverted to this discussion that it was not a valid topic for this thread?

Apparently there is a difficulty in finding a new discussion topic, without relying on some people making a fool of themselves by applying physics to philosophy.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

1. FTFY, so you don't jump to the conclusion that it is the Judeo-Christian God

2. Another solution is a causal loop, which if the causes are beyond the limitations of space and time, can exist.

1. Is irrelevant it just states that atheism is false, I can choose my God(s) later, but at least I now know not to bother with Materialism.

2. The causal loop begs the question, because let us present a sequence: A, which pushes B, which pushes C, (eventually you get to Y), Y then pushes, Z. Z, then pushes A, but what causes Z to push A? If A is dependent on Z and Z is dependent on Y, then what is the origin of these movements? Each letter is dependent on the one before, but to be uncaused you can't be dependent on anything, because your essence must be reality itself, eternity itself, but if A is moved by Z, then A's essence isn't reality and eternity, but a quality of Z. While Z's quality is also derived from Y, therefore they cannot be uncaused caused, because they are all caused by causes.

1. No one can prove whether a god exists with any certainty. It's like saying that because you don't think there are an odd number of coins in a jar (without counting them), so you think there has to be an even number of coins.

2. Say I built a time machine, travelled back to when William Shakespeare was a young man, and gave him the ideas for each of his plays based on the Shakespeare plays we know today, thus when it was 2018 and I built the hypothetical time machine, I had inspired all of the works of Shakespeare, and would give Shakespeare the idea for the same plays - where did the works of Shakespeare originally come from? Shakespeare wrote them because of me, and I gave him the ideas because of Shakespeare. That's the same case as here - the bootstrap paradox. The answer to your question, therefore, is that it is unanswerable.

[Northern Davincia]

We can always talk about how the chopping of Donar's Oak was great.

[Hakons]

Didn't we agree the last time CTM diverted to this discussion that it was not a valid topic for this thread?

Apparently there is a difficulty in finding a new discussion topic, without relying on some people making a fool of themselves by applying physics to philosophy.

CTM is able to come up with conversation topics, usually a snipe at Christianity. It tends to be refuted and proven wrong, so then it is off to the next topic, usually this one.

[Tarsonis]

Didn't we agree the last time CTM diverted to this discussion that it was not a valid topic for this thread?

Summers almost over

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Apparently there is a difficulty in finding a new discussion topic, without relying on some people making a fool of themselves by applying physics to philosophy.

CTM is able to come up with conversation topics, usually a snipe at Christianity. It tends to be refuted and "proven wrong", so then it is off to the next topic, usually this one.

FTFY - opinions =/= facts

[Hakons]

We can always talk about how the chopping of Donar's Oak was great.

Tell us the story, grampa Davincia.

I honestly don't know it.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

We can always talk about how the chopping of Donar's Oak was great.

Tell us the story, grampa Davincia.

I honestly don't know it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donar%27s_Oak

I'll leave you to your discussion

[Tarsonis]

CTM is able to come up with conversation topics, usually a snipe at Christianity. It tends to be refuted and "proven wrong", so then it is off to the next topic, usually this one.

FTFY - opinions =/= facts

Honestly, when you get to University, don’t pass up the philosophy courses

[The Archregimancy]

Didn't we agree the last time CTM diverted to this discussion that it was not a valid topic for this thread?

Well, we could always stop replying to his posts and discuss something that instead interests the majority of the participants in the thread.

[Hakons]

CTM is able to come up with conversation topics, usually a snipe at Christianity. It tends to be refuted and "proven wrong", so then it is off to the next topic, usually this one.

FTFY - opinions =/= facts

The last time I interacted with you, you were denying the veracity of Pew Research Center because you couldn't accept the fact that Christianity and other religions were expanding while atheism and religious nones were declining. Do we really want to talk about fact vs. opinion?

[Tarsonis]

No, an infinite regress is absurd because if all things have a beginning through which an infinite regress occurs, it logically begs the question about the cause, of the cause, of the cause... ad infinitum. The problem derives from the fact, that if it has a beginning it has a cause, therefore to stop an infinite regress, you need an uncaused cause, but who could that be but a God?

1. FTFY, so you don't jump to the conclusion that it is the Judeo-Christian God

2. Another solution is a causal loop, which if the causes are beyond the limitations of space and time, can exist.

A causal loop must first develop independently.

[Northern Davincia]

We can always talk about how the chopping of Donar's Oak was great.

Tell us the story, grampa Davincia.

I honestly don't know it.

It all happened a long time ago, in the pagan land of Germany...
A noble saint chopped down the tree of Thor, and forever demonstrated the futility of the Norse gods.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

FTFY - opinions =/= facts

The last time I interacted with you, you were denying the veracity of Pew Research Center because you couldn't accept the fact that Christianity and other religions were expanding while atheism and religious nones were declining. Do we really want to talk about fact vs. opinion?

The Pew Research Center source says that Christianity and other religions are growing while irreligion is (proportionally) declining. This is true ASSUMING:

1. Every person takes the religion of their parents
2. No further technological or socio-political change occurs regarding religion

[Hakons]

Didn't we agree the last time CTM diverted to this discussion that it was not a valid topic for this thread?

Well, we could always stop replying to his posts and discuss something that instead interests the majority of the participants in the thread.

That would certainly be a good recourse.

Edit: It seems like the silent treatment, but I'm honestly going to stop responding to him. If anything, it will make me less angry and less prone to writing rude replies.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The last time I interacted with you, you were denying the veracity of Pew Research Center because you couldn't accept the fact that Christianity and other religions were expanding while atheism and religious nones were declining. Do we really want to talk about fact vs. opinion?

The Pew Research Center source says that Christianity and other religions are growing while irreligion is (proportionally) declining. This is true ASSUMING:

1. Every person takes the religion of their parents
2. No further technological or socio-political change occurs regarding religion

The Pew survey takes into account the amount of people who will leave their religion.