The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Arachkya]

I’m sure the CCP definitely won’t pull a Uyghur 2.0.

The CCP's persecution of Christians is different than the mass concentration camps for Uyghurs, but I guess it's a possibility. The government continues to shut down Churches and imprison priests/pastors. The Vatican negotiated an agreement with the CCP, where the Pope was recognized as the head of Catholics in China, and in turn the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association had their bishops recognized as valid. This was controversial among Catholics, and Catholics that aren't in the association have faced increased persecution.

What was/is the dispute even about?

[Hakons]

Yesterday my church honored Samuel Seabury.

https://www.lectionarypage.net/LesserFF ... abury.html

That's cool you guys have daily masses too! Is Seabury a saint?

The CCP's persecution of Christians is different than the mass concentration camps for Uyghurs, but I guess it's a possibility. The government continues to shut down Churches and imprison priests/pastors. The Vatican negotiated an agreement with the CCP, where the Pope was recognized as the head of Catholics in China, and in turn the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association had their bishops recognized as valid. This was controversial among Catholics, and Catholics that aren't in the association have faced increased persecution.

What was/is the dispute even about?

Since the CCP took power in the 50s, they have persecuted the Church, destroying communities, tearing down Churches, and imprisoning and torturing bishops, priests, and the faithful. The CPCA was set up by the CCP to control Catholics and align them to the party's communist views, which are grossly contrary to Catholicism (a major aspect of the cold war was the social battle between communist governments and Catholics under them). The CPCA wasn't recognized as valid by the Vatican, and when bishops were "ordained" they were excommunicated. From what I gather, the CPCA has moderated over the years, and the Pope wanted to increase protections for Catholics, so he agreed to recognize the CPCA as not being in schism in return for more rights for Catholics and the ability to veto ordinations. Catholics in the underground Church that have been in communion with the Pope the whole time feel betrayed, because the CCP is using the recognition of the CPCA as license to increase persecution on Catholics that aren't in it.

[Kedri]

It’s funny and sad, the power-points and cheesy praise music are genuinely believed by these groups to be a continuation of Biblical worship. If not Biblical that the “type” of worship is a modern equivalent of first century worship styles. It’s all a big oof.

Speaking as an atheist who was raised Protestant, I'd say I'd rather attend a Baptist Church with tacky powerpoints, a laidback down to Earth sermon, and a worship team consisting of two singers, two guitarists, a drummer and a bassist, all performing Christian rock. Over a Roman Catholic Church with really stuffy, prudish, outdated sermon and aesthetics with a worship team consisting of a choir singing gregorian chants.

I've heard something similar from an Atheist who was raised Catholic. He told me if he were religious, he'd be Baptist because they are less "flashy."

I'm probably more on the traditional side as I have considered converting to Anglicanism in the past even though it's very different from my evangelical Baptist upbringing.

[San Montalbano]

Speaking as an atheist who was raised Protestant, I'd say I'd rather attend a Baptist Church with tacky powerpoints, a laidback down to Earth sermon, and a worship team consisting of two singers, two guitarists, a drummer and a bassist, all performing Christian rock. Over a Roman Catholic Church with really stuffy, prudish, outdated sermon and aesthetics with a worship team consisting of a choir singing gregorian chants.

I've heard something similar from an Atheist who was raised Catholic. He told me if he were religious, he'd be Baptist because they are less "flashy."

I was born into roman catholic, became athiest, now im trying to find my spirituality.

[Hakons]

Speaking as an atheist who was raised Protestant, I'd say I'd rather attend a Baptist Church with tacky powerpoints, a laidback down to Earth sermon, and a worship team consisting of two singers, two guitarists, a drummer and a bassist, all performing Christian rock. Over a Roman Catholic Church with really stuffy, prudish, outdated sermon and aesthetics with a worship team consisting of a choir singing gregorian chants.

I've heard something similar from an Atheist who was raised Catholic. He told me if he were religious, he'd be Baptist because they are less "flashy."

I'm probably more on the traditional side as I have considered converting to Anglicanism in the past even though it's very different from my evangelical Baptist upbringing.

How are Catholics "flashy"? If Catholics are "flashy," how is that bad?

[Sundiata]

I've heard something similar from an Atheist who was raised Catholic. He told me if he were religious, he'd be Baptist because they are less "flashy."

Within limits, I like "flashy."

[Sundiata]

I've heard something similar from an Atheist who was raised Catholic. He told me if he were religious, he'd be Baptist because they are less "flashy."

I'm probably more on the traditional side as I have considered converting to Anglicanism in the past even though it's very different from my evangelical Baptist upbringing.

How are Catholics "flashy"? If Catholics are "flashy," how is that bad?

They're just jealous of our bling: golden chalice, pope-mobile, etc.

[Hakons]

How are Catholics "flashy"? If Catholics are "flashy," how is that bad?

They're just jealous of our bling: golden chalice, pope-mobile, etc.

Haha, the Pope-mobile doesn't even look that good

[Kedri]

I've heard something similar from an Atheist who was raised Catholic. He told me if he were religious, he'd be Baptist because they are less "flashy."

I'm probably more on the traditional side as I have considered converting to Anglicanism in the past even though it's very different from my evangelical Baptist upbringing.

How are Catholics "flashy"? If Catholics are "flashy," how is that bad?

Dunno, but that was the word he used. I assume he meant all the ornate stuff.

[Hakons]

How are Catholics "flashy"? If Catholics are "flashy," how is that bad?

Dunno, but that was the word he used. I assume he meant all the ornate stuff.

Yeah, but I don't get his view. Ornate isn't flashy, it's beauty and art. What better use is there for our ability to create beauty than to dedicate it to God?

[Sundiata]

How are Catholics "flashy"? If Catholics are "flashy," how is that bad?

Dunno, but that was the word he used. I assume he meant all the ornate stuff.

Nonsense, everyone should get to live in luxury.

[Kedri]

Dunno, but that was the word he used. I assume he meant all the ornate stuff.

Yeah, but I don't get his view. Ornate isn't flashy, it's beauty and art. What better use is there for our ability to create beauty than to dedicate it to God?

I think some people disagree with the priority as there are other ways to use the ornateness and might see building huge cathedrals as a waste of money better spent going to the poor or disadvantaged.

[Sundiata]

Dunno, but that was the word he used. I assume he meant all the ornate stuff.

Yeah, but I don't get his view. Ornate isn't flashy, it's beauty and art. What better use is there for our ability to create beauty than to dedicate it to God?

Great point, he created beauty for a reason.

[Sundiata]

Yeah, but I don't get his view. Ornate isn't flashy, it's beauty and art. What better use is there for our ability to create beauty than to dedicate it to God?

I think some people disagree with the priority as there are other ways to use the ornateness and might see building huge cathedrals as a waste of money better spent going to the poor or disadvantaged.

These beautiful churches and cathedrals are open to the poor. Also, the Catholic Church has served the poor for centuries.

[Hakons]

Dunno, but that was the word he used. I assume he meant all the ornate stuff.

Nonsense, everyone should get to live in luxury.

Uh, no. Luxury, the waste and improper abundance of goods, is not part of Christian teaching. If a Christian lives a life of luxury, they must, according to the commands of Christ and His Church, use this circumstance to give their wealth to those without luxury and without sustenance.

EDIT: I might have misread that. You're probably saying everyone should receive or earn enough to live with high living standards, which is of course fine and desirable.

Yeah, but I don't get his view. Ornate isn't flashy, it's beauty and art. What better use is there for our ability to create beauty than to dedicate it to God?

I think some people disagree with the priority as there are other ways to use the ornateness and might see building huge cathedrals as a waste of money better spent going to the poor or disadvantaged.

The cathedrals are for the poor. The cathedrals are there to glorify the risen Lord and call everyone to worship Him. The cathedrals are there, welcoming and calling to everyone the Gospel of Christ. The Church is also the largest charitable organization in the world. There isn't a priority being set, the Church is simply fulfilling her mission of being the Bride of Christ. This includes both making it clear the majesty of His Church and, in complete union with this aim, serving the poor and forgotten. If we're going to start selling buildings to fund charity, I say we start with the buildings of multinational corporations that do significantly less for the poor and are significantly less beautiful.

[Sundiata]

Nonsense, everyone should get to live in luxury.

Uh, no. Luxury, the waste and improper abundance of goods, is not part of Christian teaching. If a Christian lives a life of luxury, they must, according to the commands of Christ and His Church, use this circumstance to give their wealth to those without luxury and without sustenance.

We agree!

Luxury is for the poor, that there's nothing wrong with properly distributed abundance.

[Hakons]

Uh, no. Luxury, the waste and improper abundance of goods, is not part of Christian teaching. If a Christian lives a life of luxury, they must, according to the commands of Christ and His Church, use this circumstance to give their wealth to those without luxury and without sustenance.

We agree!

Luxury is for the poor, that there's nothing wrong with properly distributed abundance.

Yeah sorry, I misread you there

[Sundiata]

We agree!

Luxury is for the poor, that there's nothing wrong with properly distributed abundance.

Yeah sorry, I misread you there

Thanks.

Tesla's for the poor!

[Lord Dominator]

Yeah sorry, I misread you there

Thanks.

Tesla's for the poor!

Golden Telsas for the poor

[Lost Memories]

Yeah, but I don't get his view. Ornate isn't flashy, it's beauty and art. What better use is there for our ability to create beauty than to dedicate it to God?

I think some people disagree with the priority as there are other ways to use the ornateness and might see building huge cathedrals as a waste of money better spent going to the poor or disadvantaged.

That's a very protestant way to look at it. Maybe that atheist was already in that mindset when he said that about flashyness.
Incidentally, that's the same thing Judas said about the perfume for Jesus's feet.

But it's actually possible to do both, as both are important.
In catholicism that concept is also defined in the Theological virtues: Faith, Hope and Charity.

In the end one has to do what they can, if one is good at making art and to be reverent, that's not inferior to who's more inclined to feed the starved. Both are good things, both are needed.
As it's said, man doesn't live by bread alone.

[Salus Maior]

Yeah, but I don't get his view. Ornate isn't flashy, it's beauty and art. What better use is there for our ability to create beauty than to dedicate it to God?

I think some people disagree with the priority as there are other ways to use the ornateness and might see building huge cathedrals as a waste of money better spent going to the poor or disadvantaged.

Artisans and builders need money too.

What better way to help people find jobs than to give them jobs?

[Hakons]

I think Kedri was more explaining what his friend's position was, rather than his own. It does come up in criticism of our faith, so it's good for everyone to know how to address it.

[Nioya]

Yesterday my church honored Samuel Seabury.

https://www.lectionarypage.net/LesserFF ... abury.html

That's cool you guys have daily masses too! Is Seabury a saint?

He's in our calendar and he is very important in our church's history.

[Camelone]

Yesterday my church honored Samuel Seabury.

https://www.lectionarypage.net/LesserFF ... abury.html

That's cool you guys have daily masses too! Is Seabury a saint?

Nah, we recognize the validity of the pre-Reformation saints, and some post-Reformation saints, but no Anglican that I know have has ever been de facto given the title of saint. There is no process to do so within the Communion or the Continuing Movement though there are societies dedicated to persons such as the link I have for the Society of King Charles the Martyr and of course being included on the calendar.

[Lower Nubia]

That's cool you guys have daily masses too! Is Seabury a saint?

Nah, we recognize the validity of the pre-Reformation saints, and some post-Reformation saints, but no Anglican that I know have has ever been de facto given the title of saint. There is no process to do so within the Communion or the Continuing Movement though there are societies dedicated to persons such as the link I have for the Society of King Charles the Martyr and of course being included on the calendar.

Would the Ugandan Martyrs count?