The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Lost Memories]

Yeah, but that music wasn't mass produced and made into an industry.

Sure it was. You think the music industry is new?

Could you be more specific with the time period you're comparing to?
Early 1000s ? Middle 1500?

It feels the meaning we give to "industry" is different to what it could have meant some or more centuries ago. At least different by spread, lucrative intent, and accessibility for newcomers.

[Narland]

I love the old hymns, even hymns done with a garage band worship team. I cannot stand "worship" music that sounds like it was written by Tom Petty. I have nothing against listening to something written by Tom Petty per se, but do not want to hear 21st century "worship" leaders with their own songs that sound like an alt band playing Tom Petty song with the identity of the girlfriend swapped with God or the Lord. It is what I least want to to hear as part of the service program.

I enjoy 3 or 4 hymns (in four part) and a prayer before the sermon (and a monthly Lord's Supper) with a hymn and benediction afterward (altar call to follow for the Wesleyan's in our midst).

I love choir gospel with soul while driving, and sometimes do not mind Dallas Holmes and "Contemporary Christian."

Give me Evangelical free (little f free) church Congregational with low church services and some Presbyterian polity when/if needed and a Romans 14 non-denominational attitude. I sometimes miss Evangelical Friend's watchnight services as they are as free-form as it gets (other than with some Revivalist Pentecostals). I am not fond of a strict liturgy but am not opposed to it for those to whom it ministers. I find even the Orthodox Presbyterian Church liturgy can be a bit much (and it is has the least prescriptive acts compared the to others).

You know, much of the music we use in Mass now was the pop music of the day when it was written. Food for thought.

Yes, that is why I mentioned Dallas Holmes (my parents generation). There are churches that play music from the Country Gospel groups of the 1950s-80s but I would prefer something a bit more Early Modern or Medieval. Something happened with Evangelical Church music around and after the 1890s that doesn't quite sound right to me. I do love the stuff written up until that time.

[Tarsonis]

Sure it was. You think the music industry is new?

Could you be more specific with the time period you're comparing to?
Early 1000s ? Middle 1500?

It feels the meaning we give to "industry" is different to what it could have meant some or more centuries ago. At least different by spread, lucrative intent, and accessibility for newcomers.

We’re talking about the modern mass music which is generally all post Renaissance and beyond.

[Salus Maior]

Yeah, but that music wasn't mass produced and made into an industry.

Sure it was. You think the music industry is new?

I think Gregorian chant requires a little more effort and skill as an art, than auto-tuned hot garbage that people listen to these days.

[Tarsonis]

Sure it was. You think the music industry is new?

I think Gregorian chant requires a little more effort and skill as an art, than auto-tuned hot garbage that people listen to these days.

While I won’t disagree, that is an opinion and not a statement of fact.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Happy Sundays and the ability to communicate with other Christians and find out how to be a better Christian and a better person. Isn't that the whole point of Church?

Not too sure what sanctification is, but it seems like something that doesn't originate in the Bible and isn't necessary to being Christian, in fact it might even be counterproductive to being Christian. Consequences seem to run counter to Jesus' ethos of believing in mercy and redemption and dwelling with sinners, etc. The Baptist Church I used to go to had communion, but what's "guilty grape juice time?" Are Protestant communions not fancy enough or not reverent enough or something?


That's probably why I was under the false impression that all Catholic Churches were like that. Because while they're not all like that, many Catholics seem to wish they were.


A lot of Christian Contemporary music and Christian rock is quite soulless and commercial, but it has its moments, and what do you mean by "sacred?"


"Valid under canon law" according to whom?

Jesus talked very much about consequences. See His Lament of Jerusalem in Matthew, see His flipping the tables in the temple, see His verse about those who lead others to scandal getting a millstone around their necks...I’m not sure what Bible you’re reading that says Jesus doesn’t believe in consequences. Mercy doesn’t exist without consequences. Christians believe in God’s mercy because they understand the price, the consequence, that Jesus paid for our sins on the cross.

Sanctification is...basically the reason people read the Bible? Maybe the word is not used specifically in the Gospels, but Jesus and St. John the Baptist call for people to “repent and believe” a lot.

The Catholic conception of "sacraments" and "consequences" seem to imply more than just the broad basic definition of those words.

[Lost Memories]

Could you be more specific with the time period you're comparing to?
Early 1000s ? Middle 1500?

It feels the meaning we give to "industry" is different to what it could have meant some or more centuries ago. At least different by spread, lucrative intent, and accessibility for newcomers.

We’re talking about the modern mass music which is generally all post Renaissance and beyond.

Ah ok, that makes more sense.

Saying early church hymns were mass produced in a music industry way, would have sounded odd.

[Lower Nubia]

Baptist and Pentecostals literally offer nothing but happy Sundays.

Edit: Of the service, half of it is sermon, the other half is song, so that’s a 30 minute split, so only 0.29% of the week is occupied by “worship” song. Neither of these churches emphasises sanctification, or even has consequences (such as exclusion from communion) for failing to do so. While communion, if it’s ever had, is literally guilty grape juice time.

Happy Sundays and the ability to communicate with other Christians and find out how to be a better Christian and a better person. Isn't that the whole point of Church?

Don't add more layers that don't exist. You can communicate with other Christians in any denomination, I attended a service and coffee hour with some Orthodox in Glasgow the other week, so communication isn't something unique to Baptists or Pentecostals. Therefore the content of the actual service is the marker here for "better Christian and better person". In a Baptist church, there is NO emphasis on holiness apart from "follow Jesus" which though initially means turning from sin, there are no actual consequences to a sinful life while in the congregation, so it's bluster.

Therefore Church is 30 minutes praise songs (which can be hymnal as I forced at my Church) and 30-minute sermon. That's the Church's life and although you say "better Christian, better person" I note that both praise songs and sermons are not unique conditions to a service, I could, if I wished, get those things on my own without stepping foot in those Church's. Which means, for all intents and purposes, that those churches are just people gatherings with an emphasis on worship, but not on providing anything which cannot be gotten elsewhere. So these Church's are just "happy hour" sing some nice songs, listen to a sermon which is either too complicated for new members, or two simple for older members, and then tea time! Rince, Repeat, ad nauseam.

Not too sure what sanctification is, but it seems like something that doesn't originate in the Bible and isn't necessary to being Christian

James 5:16; "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." How do you become a Righteous man? ; Matthew 7:21; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." ; What is the Will of the Father? ; Mark 12:29; "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." And what other commandments were there? The ending to Matthew 5: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

There. Biblical, and necessary.

in fact it might even be counterproductive to being Christian.

False.

Consequences seem to run counter to Jesus' ethos of believing in mercy and redemption and dwelling with sinners, etc.

He dwelt with sinners because they needed to know of the consequence of their sin. I.e. hell. Literally you've taken a mission of Christ to go to those in most danger of the consequence of their sin, and turned it into a mission where Jesus does not care about consequence? What sought of reading is that? Why do you think he dwelt with sinners? To redeem them from what?

The Baptist Church I used to go to had communion, but what's "guilty grape juice time?"

No, they do not have communion. There are at least two rules to communion: Those that take part are members of the Church i.e. Baptised. And that anyone who partakes of communion has sought forgiveness for his sins. Seeing as Baptists do not do these as a necessity to be a Baptist Church, they make of communion a sacrilege, as is clearly revealed in 1 Corinthians 11; "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

Note two things: One, we need to be worthy, two, that being baptised does not de facto make you worthy. Which means Baptised members must do additional things to be able to partake of the bread and wine. Seeing as Baptists as a denomination do not demand either of these things, I can only say they make a mockery of the communion.

If they don't have communion, then their drinking of grape juice (which again, it clearly specifies wine) and their: "remember Jesus' sacrifice for you" line before you partake is simply "guilty grape juice time".

I rest my case.

Are Protestant communions not fancy enough or not reverent enough or something?

Depending on your MO, Higher Church Protestants are fine, because communion does something which you can't do on your own, nor merit on your own, it is given. In Low Church Protestants, it doesn't do anything and they take pride in that fact, every communion service I had at a Baptist service always, explicitly told of how communion is just bread, and just 'grape juice', and that it does nothing for you, and that we should use this time to remember Christ's death on the cross. As if that wasn't the whole point of being Christian anyway, i.e. to reveal the good news of Christ's death on the cross and ressurection. Why have a feast for something Christian's need to be remembering and evangelising every day? It's just so bloody pointless.

[Sundiata]

I just wanted to share this film with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF5n4HScSP4

[Tarsonis]

Today I learned Oscar Wilde converted to Catholicism on his deathbed, and received last rites. This makes me happy.

[The New California Republic]

Today I learned Oscar Wilde converted to Catholicism on his deathbed, and received last rites. This makes me happy.

It's honestly debatable whether he was fully aware of what was happening. The priest thought so, but given Wilde's grave condition and semi-comatose state it's debatable:

By 25 November 1900 Wilde had developed meningitis, then called "cerebral meningitis". Robbie Ross arrived on 29 November, sent for a priest, and Wilde was conditionally baptised into the Catholic Church by Fr Cuthbert Dunne, a Passionist priest from Dublin,[187][188] Wilde having been baptised in the Church of Ireland and having moreover a recollection of Catholic baptism as a child, a fact later attested to by the minister of the sacrament, Fr Lawrence Fox.[189] Fr Dunne recorded the baptism:

As the voiture rolled through the dark streets that wintry night, the sad story of Oscar Wilde was in part repeated to me... Robert Ross knelt by the bedside, assisting me as best he could while I administered conditional baptism, and afterwards answering the responses while I gave Extreme Unction to the prostrate man and recited the prayers for the dying. As the man was in a semi-comatose condition, I did not venture to administer the Holy Viaticum; still I must add that he could be roused and was roused from this state in my presence. When roused, he gave signs of being inwardly conscious... Indeed I was fully satisfied that he understood me when told that I was about to receive him into the Catholic Church and gave him the Last Sacraments... And when I repeated close to his ear the Holy Names, the Acts of Contrition, Faith, Hope and Charity, with acts of humble resignation to the Will of God, he tried all through to say the words after me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde#Death

[Menassa]

It’s funny and sad, the power-points and cheesy praise music are genuinely believed by these groups to be a continuation of Biblical worship. If not Biblical that the “type” of worship is a modern equivalent of first century worship styles. It’s all a big oof.

"Sing to the Lord a new song; sing to the Lord, all the earth."

It's better if it rhymes in Hebrew

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

I love the old hymns, even hymns done with a garage band worship team. I cannot stand "worship" music that sounds like it was written by Tom Petty. I have nothing against listening to something written by Tom Petty per se, but do not want to hear 21st century "worship" leaders with their own songs that sound like an alt band playing Tom Petty song with the identity of the girlfriend swapped with God or the Lord. It is what I least want to to hear as part of the service program.

I enjoy 3 or 4 hymns (in four part) and a prayer before the sermon (and a monthly Lord's Supper) with a hymn and benediction afterward (altar call to follow for the Wesleyan's in our midst).

I love choir gospel with soul while driving, and sometimes do not mind Dallas Holmes and "Contemporary Christian."

Give me Evangelical free (little f free) church Congregational with low church services and some Presbyterian polity when/if needed and a Romans 14 non-denominational attitude. I sometimes miss Evangelical Friend's watchnight services as they are as free-form as it gets (other than with some Revivalist Pentecostals). I am not fond of a strict liturgy but am not opposed to it for those to whom it ministers. I find even the Orthodox Presbyterian Church liturgy can be a bit much (and it is has the least prescriptive acts compared the to others).

You know, much of the music we use in Mass now was the pop music of the day when it was written. Food for thought.

Right now I'm imagining that the Catholic Church of the 25th century will be playing Drake and Beyonce during Mass.

[Menassa]

So, after watching another rendition of JC Superstar I got to thinking about communion. Where the main character Jesus, says "This is my blood you eat, this is my body you drink, if you will remember me, when you eat and drink."

This naturally reminded me of the Jewish maxim:

"Rabbi Shimon would say: Three who eat at one table and do not speak words of Torah, it is as if they have eaten of idolatrous sacrifices; as is stated, "Indeed, all tables are filled with vomit and filth, devoid of the Omnipresent" (Isaiah 28:8). But three who eat at one table and speak words of Torah, it is as if they have eaten at G‑d's table, as is stated, "And he said to me: This is the table that is before G‑d" (Ezekiel 41:22). - (Ethics 3:3)

This got me thinking that perhaps the original intention of the communion that you all do was simply for the Christian community to remember the teachings of Jesus when they would sit down to eat and drink.

The scholar in me obviously knows I shouldn't be drawing scriptural conclusions from a 1970s Rock Opera but the artist in me thought that this was an interesting comparison. I'm sure that Paul has a lot to say on Communion and I am well aware that in Catholic circles it is a very serious rite that I don't attempt to demean or deride with my musings.

Let me know what you all think of this!

[Sundiata]

You know, much of the music we use in Mass now was the pop music of the day when it was written. Food for thought.

Right now I'm imagining that the Catholic Church of the 25th century will be playing Drake and Beyonce during Mass.

I don't mind a little Kanye myself.

[Salus Maior]

I think Gregorian chant requires a little more effort and skill as an art, than auto-tuned hot garbage that people listen to these days.

While I won’t disagree, that is an opinion and not a statement of fact.

That's not an opinion, it's literally a lot more work to really get good at gregorian chant and make it sound the way it does than auto-tuned pop.

Also, Gregorian chant predates the renaissance and mass production anyway.

[Tarsonis]

You know, much of the music we use in Mass now was the pop music of the day when it was written. Food for thought.

Right now I'm imagining that the Catholic Church of the 25th century will be playing Drake and Beyonce during Mass.

Billy Joel’s “Always a woman to me” will be a Marian devotional.

[Luminesa]

You know, much of the music we use in Mass now was the pop music of the day when it was written. Food for thought.

Right now I'm imagining that the Catholic Church of the 25th century will be playing Drake and Beyonce during Mass.

A liturgy written by Drake would be dreadful, oh my gosh.

[Luminesa]

Jesus talked very much about consequences. See His Lament of Jerusalem in Matthew, see His flipping the tables in the temple, see His verse about those who lead others to scandal getting a millstone around their necks...I’m not sure what Bible you’re reading that says Jesus doesn’t believe in consequences. Mercy doesn’t exist without consequences. Christians believe in God’s mercy because they understand the price, the consequence, that Jesus paid for our sins on the cross.

Sanctification is...basically the reason people read the Bible? Maybe the word is not used specifically in the Gospels, but Jesus and St. John the Baptist call for people to “repent and believe” a lot.

The Catholic conception of "sacraments" and "consequences" seem to imply more than just the broad basic definition of those words.

Well what is the broad, basic definition of a sacrament? As for consequences, how often does Jesus talk of people suffering consequences for being selfish, for being lazy in faith, and for being awful people?

[Northern Davincia]

"Sing to the Lord a new song; sing to the Lord, all the earth."

It's better if it rhymes in Hebrew

Nice to see ye around these parts.

[Kowani]

Right now I'm imagining that the Catholic Church of the 25th century will be playing Drake and Beyonce during Mass.

A liturgy written by Drake would be dreadful, oh my gosh.

Drake writes his own music?

[Camelone]

I've been spending to much money on service books, or liturgical prayer books, so that I can compare them. So far besides my 1928 BCP I have the Western Rite Service Book coming in, Richard Baxter's Reformed Liturgy, the Westminster Directory of Public Worship, and now I'm getting tempted to buy a reprint of the pre Vatican II Roman Missal. I think I may want to look into becoming a scholar of liturgy!

[Bienenhalde]

Could you be more specific with the time period you're comparing to?
Early 1000s ? Middle 1500?

It feels the meaning we give to "industry" is different to what it could have meant some or more centuries ago. At least different by spread, lucrative intent, and accessibility for newcomers.

We’re talking about the modern mass music which is generally all post Renaissance and beyond.

Music wasn't really a mass produced commodity until the rise of the radio and the phonograph at the beginning of the twentieth century. And even then, the contemporary Christian music industry did not really arise until the latter half of the century. Of course, I realize that church in the Roman Catholic Church is sort of different from that used by Protestants, but from what I understand, from Vatican II onwards liberals were pushing lousy hippy music in the liturgy in place of the medieval and classical styles. Still a change for the worse, although it seems it was motivated more by ideological pressure and bad theology than commercialism. Of course, pandering to young people and youth culture was an important motivation in both cases.

[Tarsonis]

We’re talking about the modern mass music which is generally all post Renaissance and beyond.

Music wasn't really a mass produced commodity until the rise of the radio and the phonograph at the beginning of the twentieth century. And even then, the contemporary Christian music industry did not really arise until the latter half of the century. Of course, I realize that church in the Roman Catholic Church is sort of different from that used by Protestants, but from what I understand, from Vatican II onwards liberals were pushing lousy hippy music in the liturgy in place of the medieval and classical styles. Still a change for the worse, although it seems it was motivated more by ideological pressure and bad theology than commercialism. Of course, pandering to young people and youth culture was an important motivation in both cases.

That’s not really accurate. You’re equating producing music to producing records. Even during the classical era there was a music industry of producing music for churches, live performance, etc.

[Infected Mushroom]

Do Christians watch Supernatural?

Would you find the story too offensive?