The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Tarsonis]

Yeah the Episcopalians have dragged the Anglican communion hard to the left.

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but we don't necessarily mean the same thing by 'Episcopalian' in this context.

Granted they're both part of the same communion, but wouldn't NCR likely be referring to the Scottish Episcopal Church (my childhood denomination, as it happens) rather than the American Episcopal Church?

That said, the Scots are arguably more socially liberal as a bloc than the Americans.

My bad, I tend to think Episcopalians = American Anglicans

[The Archregimancy]

Wonder if he is in this video https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-501 ... d-in-egypt

He was in Ancient Aliens once, so he's told me.

I have been in a couple of episodes of a hilariously bad History Channel series; but not that one.

I do have some standards.



Edit: And no, I'm not in the video linked by Celritannia, though the objects are coming to the museum where I'm currently working.

[Tarsonis]

He was in Ancient Aliens once, so he's told me.

I have been in a couple of episodes of a hilariously bad History Channel series; but not that one.

I do have some standards.

Unfortunately that describes about 95% of their lineup

[Hakons]

They're humans obviously. But they don't get to have an opinion on what the church should and shouldn't do. They can't be saved unless they convert however.

And the Church does not get to destroy idols or gods of other cultures.
That's how imperialism happened.

Perhaps this is addressing the general sentiment of Ghost, but this doesn't fit at all the situation that happened recently in the Vatican. Removing what were arguable pagan idols from a Church isn't imperialism.

One of the groups claiming to represent indiginous Amazonians had a ceremony where they bowed in a circle around statues, and then these statues were put on display in a Church. It caused a bit of a stir, since the statues were wood carvings of naked women. A Vatican official said they weren't idols,but instead an abstract representation of life, fertility, or the Earth. That didn't exactly make it any better, since Catholics don't prostrate themselves to worship vague concepts that honestly still sound pagan. Eventually a Catholic took the initiative and stole the statues from the Church and in a rather poetic way showed his disapproval by throwing the objects into the Tiber river. I think the oddest thing was that this was all filmed and released online, but that's Church disputes in the 21st century I guess.

[Hakons]

I mean, when Jesus was left-wing in Ancient times, shouldn't that be the thing?

What does "left-wing in Ancient times" even mean?

[Diopolis]

He was in Ancient Aliens once, so he's told me.

I have been in a couple of episodes of a hilariously bad History Channel series; but not that one.

I do have some standards.



Edit: And no, I'm not in the video linked by Celritannia, though the objects are coming to the museum where I'm currently working.

You were in Finding Bigfoot?

[Tarsonis]

Anyone else thing the Battle of Minas Tirith was based on the 1683 Siege of Vienna?

[The Archregimancy]

Anyone else thing the Battle of Minas Tirith was based on the 1683 Siege of Vienna?

No; no more than the Fall of Gondolin was based on the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, in that both consist of the fall of a city.

In any case, the physical situations of 17th-century Vienna and Third Age Minas Tirith are wholly distinct, and there's absolutely no suggestion that Tolkien equated the Ottomans with the forces of Mordor, or Islam with worship of Sauron.

Also, I have a hard time connecting Jan Sobieski with Aragorn.

[Celritannia]

He was in Ancient Aliens once, so he's told me.

I have been in a couple of episodes of a hilariously bad History Channel series; but not that one.

I do have some standards.



Edit: And no, I'm not in the video linked by Celritannia, though the objects are coming to the museum where I'm currently working.

Huzzah!

[Celritannia]

Yes, because one religion claiming another religion false is totally okay, isn't it?

Your creation myth is not more false than all the other ones that have come before it.

Yes, it is okay. Christianity is exclusivist. Christ himself taught that no one comes to the Father except through him. Islam teaches it’s the one true religion. Judaism likewise. If an adherent of a religion claims another religion is also true they don’t really believe their own.

As did the creation story I don’t hold it to be literally true, so your point is wasted on me

Well, your Religion is no more true than any other religion that has existed.

[Tarsonis]

Yes, it is okay. Christianity is exclusivist. Christ himself taught that no one comes to the Father except through him. Islam teaches it’s the one true religion. Judaism likewise. If an adherent of a religion claims another religion is also true they don’t really believe their own.

As did the creation story I don’t hold it to be literally true, so your point is wasted on me

Well, your Religion is no more true than any other religion that has existed.

Mmkay

[Tarsonis]

Anyone else thing the Battle of Minas Tirith was based on the 1683 Siege of Vienna?

No; no more than the Fall of Gondolin was based on the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, in that both consist of the fall of a city.

In any case, the physical situations of 17th-century Vienna and Third Age Minas Tirith are wholly distinct, and there's absolutely no suggestion that Tolkien equated the Ottomans with the forces of Mordor, or Islam with worship of Sauron.

Also, I have a hard time connecting Jan Sobieski with Aragorn.

I’d equate him more with Theoden

And I meant more the tactics than anything else

[Celritannia]

What I base my morals off is none of your concern.
I have them, I just don't need any 1 of the possible 4,000 gods that humans have prayed to throughout our existence.

Why do you need a God to have morals?

I am almost certain that you base your morals off modern zeitgeist morality. When your morals are flimsy enough to change with the times, it is little different than saying you believe in no morality whatsoever.
A deity provides an objective basis for right and wrong. If God says theft is wrong, then it becomes a fact of reality itself.

The only atheistic morality I can sympathize with is, unsurprisingly, that of Ayn Rand. She attempts to create a secular morality that is immune to shifting whims, hence Objectivism.

And you would be incorrect.

And yet, theft has been a crime since your God mentioned it.

Think what you want about what I base my morals off, but you'd be wrong.

[Celritannia]

Do you have evidence?
Because science says it does:
https://www.developmentalscience.com/bl ... rn-with-it

The experiment in that article tested babies from 8-16 months. In other words, it did not test newborns.

So are you saying new borns are evil? Because a consciousness hasn't fully developed in a baby yet, however they smile and play with other babies perfectly well.

[Celritannia]

I mean, when Jesus was left-wing in Ancient times, shouldn't that be the thing?

What does "left-wing in Ancient times" even mean?

He helped the poor, ensure the sick were looked after, at a time people paid for doctors.
He destroyed trading markets on the sabbath day.

[Celritannia]

And the Church does not get to destroy idols or gods of other cultures.
That's how imperialism happened.

Perhaps this is addressing the general sentiment of Ghost, but this doesn't fit at all the situation that happened recently in the Vatican. Removing what were arguable pagan idols from a Church isn't imperialism.

One of the groups claiming to represent indiginous Amazonians had a ceremony where they bowed in a circle around statues, and then these statues were put on display in a Church. It caused a bit of a stir, since the statues were wood carvings of naked women. A Vatican official said they weren't idols,but instead an abstract representation of life, fertility, or the Earth. That didn't exactly make it any better, since Catholics don't prostrate themselves to worship vague concepts that honestly still sound pagan. Eventually a Catholic took the initiative and stole the statues from the Church and in a rather poetic way showed his disapproval by throwing the objects into the Tiber river. I think the oddest thing was that this was all filmed and released online, but that's Church disputes in the 21st century I guess.

I am also refering to Christians removing pagan or what they considered pagan idols across the world. From Europe, to the Americas, to Africa, to some parts of Asia.

They stole those idols from a particular culture which worshipped them. Which is wrong.

But the irony is, modern festivals are actually more pagan than Christian, like Halloween, Christmas, and Easter.

[Tarsonis]

What does "left-wing in Ancient times" even mean?

He helped the poor, ensure the sick were looked after, at a time people paid for doctors.
He destroyed trading markets* on the sabbath day.

*in the temple. He wasn’t opposed to them in general.

[Celritannia]

He helped the poor, ensure the sick were looked after, at a time people paid for doctors.
He destroyed trading markets* on the sabbath day.

*in the temple. He wasn’t opposed to them in general.

He illegally destroyed private property. Vandalism!

[Lost Memories]

Think what you want about what I base my morals off, but you'd be wrong.

Dices or moon-phases?
d6 or d20?

[The New California Republic]

Think what you want about what I base my morals off, but you'd be wrong.

Dices or moon-phases?

Um, there are many secular moral systems out there...

[Tarsonis]

*in the temple. He wasn’t opposed to them in general.

He illegally destroyed private property. Vandalism!

Technically since he’s God, it’s his temple. He cleaned out the squatters.

[The Archregimancy]

No; no more than the Fall of Gondolin was based on the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople, in that both consist of the fall of a city.

In any case, the physical situations of 17th-century Vienna and Third Age Minas Tirith are wholly distinct, and there's absolutely no suggestion that Tolkien equated the Ottomans with the forces of Mordor, or Islam with worship of Sauron.

Also, I have a hard time connecting Jan Sobieski with Aragorn.

I’d equate him more with Theoden

Either way, that's a really long bow to draw.

Not least because the Rohirrim are so obviously horse-riding Anglo-Saxons - rather than say, 17th-century Poles - that they speak the Mercian dialect of Old English and use Anglo-Saxon naming conventions for their monarchs, and Tolkien himself seems to have based the charge of the Rohirrim on the far more period-appropriate 5th-century Battle of Chalons rather than the Siege of Vienna.

Making sure that this stays on topic.... Clearly Tolkien was influenced by his Christianity in his historical worldview, and this undoubtedly influenced his fiction; but he also knew his post-Roman history. The death of Theoden at the Pelennor Fields owes much more to Theodoric's death at Chalons while honouring his alliance with the Romans against the Huns than it does to 17th-century Vienna. Notably, Jan Sobieski lived another 13 years after Vienna.

[Tarsonis]

The experiment in that article tested babies from 8-16 months. In other words, it did not test newborns.

So are you saying new borns are evil? Because a consciousness hasn't fully developed in a baby yet, however they smile and play with other babies perfectly well.

Babies are dependent on others for survival, that makes them naturally social. I wouldn’t go putting a judgment on them either way. They’re pretty much blank slates. Humans have capacity for altruism and atrocity, there’s not really a natural bent either way.

[Tarsonis]

I’d equate him more with Theoden

Either way, that's a really long bow to draw.

Not least because the Rohirrim are so obviously horse-riding Anglo-Saxons - rather than say, 17th-century Poles - that they speak the Mercian dialect of Old English and use Anglo-Saxon naming conventions for their monarchs, and Tolkien himself seems to have based the charge of the Rohirrim on the far more period-appropriate 5th-century Battle of Chalons rather than the Siege of Vienna.

Making sure that this stays on topic.... Clearly Tolkien was influenced by his Christianity in his historical worldview, and this undoubtedly influenced his fiction; but he also knew his post-Roman history. The death of Theoden at the Pelennor Fields owes much more to Theodoric's death at Chalons while honouring his alliance with the Romans against the Huns than it does to 17th-century Vienna. Notably, Jan Sobieski lived another 13 years after Vienna.

While I’m in Awe of your history knowledge and literary criticism, I added that I meant more tactically wise, equating the siege and defense of Minas Tirith up to its relief by Arrival of the Rohirrim, to the defense of Vienna until the arrival of Sobieski and the charge of the Winged Hussars at what was pretty much the 11th hour.

[Lost Memories]

Dices or moon-phases?

Um, there are many secular moral systems out there...

No doubt (if are also counted those moral systems which have no value when applied to a society)

I was rather teasing Celrita for shying away from the talk about individual whimsical morality and stable society-oriented morality.

Even if, saying morality has value only when useful to society would be reductive, on the individual side a morality should have value when it brings some results.
A morality which changes goalposts before getting any relevant progress in the given task, isn't being effective in promoting results. That is the case with most individual-only "liberal" moralities.