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The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
334
36%
Eastern Orthodox
85
9%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
6
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
57
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
96
10%
Methodist
16
2%
Baptist
95
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
72
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
37
4%
Other Christian
137
15%
 
Total votes : 935

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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:55 pm

Araraukar wrote:Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

This is a good question. Here's the short answer:

Human life -- even on this earth, filled with suffering and misery -- is nonetheless good and a gift from God, so we are obliged to protect and preserve our own lives. In practice, this means wearing seatbelts.



Here's a longer answer:

In our original state, humanity existed in an earthly paradise and possessed a number of special graces, including heightened knowledge, physical immortality, and freedom from suffering and inclination towards evil. But we lost these graces because of original sin.

I do not know what would have happened if we had not sinned. I would guess that we would have been permitted to enter heaven and experience full communion with God (which we do not have and have never had on earth) after reaching a sufficient level of maturity, but this is just speculation.

The point is that God intentionally did not create us in heaven to start with. He wanted us to experience life on earth first, because life on earth is good in its own right and was part of His overall plan for the growth and development of humanity.

Now, despite our initial rejection of God, God in His mercy has redeemed us through Jesus Christ and gave us a second chance to receive what He wanted to give us all along: full communion with him in heaven.

But by our own fault, we have lost the special graces we were originally given. We are responsible for introducing suffering and death into this world, and we must deal with the consequences. Yet despite this, life on this earth is still a gift from God, it is inherently good by nature, it is part of the divine plan, and it is worth living. Thus, we are obliged to protect and safeguard our lives. The self-inflicted wound of original sin does not change that.



You may also be interested in the section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on suicide:

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:07 pm

A couple of arguments already made in this thread are good responses as well, though I think the core argument is the one I made above.

(1) Christians are required to follow legitimate authority and abide by just laws, and wearing seat belts is required by law.

(2) We have duties and obligations to others which we obviously cannot fulfil if we are dead. Similarly, we cannot perform good works if we are dead. Recklessly endangering one's life is therefore irresponsible.
Last edited by Auralia on Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Catholic Commonwealth of Auralia
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:17 pm

Argument: Not wearing a seatbelt would amount to suicide, and suicide means going to Hell.

Reply: Is driving a car also suicide? You're much more likely to die in a car crash if you're driving a car than if you're not. A seatbelt would merely make you more likely to die, instead of being (merely/badly) injured. It doesn't affect the amount of crashes, or your chances of ending up in a crash. Unless you drive recklessly because you have a seat belt, in which case stop trying to murder other people!!!

I don't really understand this response. There are, of course, discussions to be had about what precisely constitutes reasonable steps to preserve one's own life. But it's silly to argue that any action with the slightest risk of death -- basically everything! -- constitutes suicide.

Agument: Law says I have to wear one and if I don't, I'll get fined/lose my driver's licence.

Reply: Are you really saying that man's law is above god's law? If that's the case, why are god's laws being used to harass people who follow man's laws? And if god's laws are above man's laws, then you should be stoning or drowning adulterers (I forget which) and be free to take slaves and do all kinds of things that are forbidden by man's law. And if you wear polyester-cotton undies, you go to Hell. I'm also pretty sure there's something even in the Bible that says how you won't be able to take you wealth with you when you die, so losing some earthly possessions shouldn't be a problem.

God has endowed states with legitimate authority to order society through just laws. Man's law is not above God's law, but it is binding if it is consistent with God's law.

The ceremonial aspects of the Old Testament law are no longer binding. I would recommend taking a look at questions 98-105 of the Summa.
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Neanderthaland
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Postby Neanderthaland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 pm

Araraukar wrote:I guess I could have posted this in its own thread, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

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Last edited by Neanderthaland on Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:27 am

Lower Nubia wrote:
Araraukar wrote:What does "entrusted life and oath" mean here? Most of my church vocabulary is in Finnish, so I don't recognize that.

Yeah, your oath and entrusted life in Christ demand: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

That’s an oath and responsibility of all Christians in their life

Linguistic differences, then, because in Finnish that's "lähetyskäsky", which translates to (keeping the nuances) "command for missionaries" or possibly "commanding the state of being missionaries on people". Basically the word used of it is not any kind of oath, it's a command. Difference being, you yourself give an oath (to do something), but someone else commands you (to do something). Before confirmation when we were doing Bible study, that was explained as something that Jesus told people to do to spread the word about there being a god and Jesus being their son and so forth, but that it's not something that every Christian is supposed to do, at least in actual everyday normal life. Like I said, secular nation, realistic expectations...

it does not say: “die quick, come up here and party mah dudes and dudettes!”

...to be fair, the Abrahamic god concept would make much more sense if it did.



Thank you Auralia, for posting it here, and especially for the links. :)

I'll get back to you (and everyone else who has posted) as soon as possible, which will likely be Thursday evening or Friday, I hope. I hurt my back again (can't always avoid moving heavy things in awkward positions) and sitting at the computer is painful enough that I won't waste much of that time on NS, sorry, but the worst pain should abate in a few days. The delay is a bummer because I am actually interested in talking about this topic rather than just going "gotcha" - if that was my only intention, I'd have just posted a Youtube link, not actually asked questions or tried to answer the counterarguments - and NSG is easier to get ahold of some Christian peeps willing to talk and link to things than RL. And yes I've tried, long ago.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:24 am

Araraukar wrote:...to be fair, the Abrahamic god concept would make much more sense if it did.


It really wouldn't.

If God just wanted us to quit life, why would He create life?
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:26 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Araraukar wrote:...to be fair, the Abrahamic god concept would make much more sense if it did.


It really wouldn't.

If God just wanted us to quit life, why would He create life?

If God didn't want us to, then why would He create the promise of Heaven? But that being said, your actual point seems to be valid.
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Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:22 pm

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
It really wouldn't.

If God just wanted us to quit life, why would He create life?

If God didn't want us to, then why would He create the promise of Heaven? But that being said, your actual point seems to be valid.


Well, He opened up Heaven as part of the New Covenant (because originally no one would go to Heaven, but to Sheol, but Christ changed that), so that people can have a chance of reuniting with Him fully.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:12 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:Yeah, your oath and entrusted life in Christ demand: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

That’s an oath and responsibility of all Christians in their life

Linguistic differences, then, because in Finnish that's "lähetyskäsky", which translates to (keeping the nuances) "command for missionaries" or possibly "commanding the state of being missionaries on people".


Everyone’s a missionary, some just have it in official capacity.

Araraukar wrote:Basically the word used of it is not any kind of oath, it's a command.


It’s a command to Christians, which means you must already have commitment to follow Christ.

I said this: “Yeah, your oath and entrusted life in Christ demand: ...” you commit yourself to follow the Christian life, which is to do as Christ commanded.

“An oath; a solemn promise, often invoking a divine witness, regarding one's future action or behaviour.”

That describes the beginning of every Christians life, a change in future action before divine witness.

Araraukar wrote:Difference being, you yourself give an oath (to do something), but someone else commands you (to do something).


I said this.

Araraukar wrote:Before confirmation when we were doing Bible study, that was explained as something that Jesus told people to do to spread the word about there being a god and Jesus being their son and so forth, but that it's not something that every Christian is supposed to do, at least in actual everyday normal life. Like I said, secular nation, realistic expectations...

Except that’s bullshit, we are commanded to be Christian before being secular, so choosing when to follow the commandments is a failure in one’s loyalty to God. We are commanded to be witnesses, a witness isn’t just someone who shouts from the street corner or knocks on doors, but participates in the life of the Church - which is reflected in their life, which reflects on those around them.

Araraukar wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:it does not say: “die quick, come up here and party mah dudes and dudettes!”

...to be fair, the Abrahamic god concept would make much more sense if it did.


Da Fuq is this?
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:04 am

So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:05 am

Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.

Is it crusading time yet?
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Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:07 am

Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.

Yep.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:12 am

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.

Is it crusading time yet?


Well, Cardinal Burke seems to believe it is.

A fasting/prayer crusade, that is.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:12 am

Diopolis wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.

Yep.


Who even writes these kinds of documents anyway?
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:15 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:Is it crusading time yet?


Well, Cardinal Burke seems to believe it is.

A fasting/prayer crusade, that is.

Disappointingly peaceful, but I'll take what I can get :p
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Telconi wrote:My point is that believing scientists is bad. And people ought not do this thing.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:22 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Diopolis wrote:Yep.


Who even writes these kinds of documents anyway?

Given the length of them, I would guess someone paid by the word.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:45 pm

Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.


What is the Amazon synod exactly?
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:40 pm

Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.



If the Church ratifies this mess, it’ll be a dark day. Const and Arch better save me a seat.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:48 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.



If the Church ratifies this mess, it’ll be a dark day. Const and Arch better save me a seat.


What’s the worst thing about it?
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:03 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

If the Church ratifies this mess, it’ll be a dark day. Const and Arch better save me a seat.


What’s the worst thing about it?

A better question is what’s the least objectionable, which would be married priests. Look it up, it’s terrible.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:09 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.



If the Church ratifies this mess, it’ll be a dark day. Const and Arch better save me a seat.


I doubt that would happen. Pope Francis and the Vatican are orthodox enough that you won't have to become Orthodox lol. Perhaps have some encouragement from this recent event, where the Vatican is continuing to condemn moves by the German Bishops Conference.
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Postby Luminesa » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:15 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.


What is the Amazon synod exactly?

I am also confused by this, I’ve heard about it but I don’t understand it.
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and the greatest is love."
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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:20 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
What’s the worst thing about it?

A better question is what’s the least objectionable, which would be married priests. Look it up, it’s terrible.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... ynod-42327

At least they’re not saying that married priests will be the main topic.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3

So apparently I am an ENFP!

Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:26 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Tarsonis wrote: A better question is what’s the least objectionable, which would be married priests. Look it up, it’s terrible.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... ynod-42327

At least they’re not saying that married priests will be the main topic.


What Tars is saying is that the married priests thing is the least problematic thing about the document.

Everything else about it...Is outright heresy. And I mean that seriously, it's advocating pantheism.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:27 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

If the Church ratifies this mess, it’ll be a dark day. Const and Arch better save me a seat.


What’s the worst thing about it?


It's advocating pantheism, and basically saying that paganism is a valid means of revelation.
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

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