NATION

PASSWORD

The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
276
36%
Eastern Orthodox
72
9%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
5
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
49
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
82
11%
Methodist
13
2%
Baptist
80
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
57
7%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
26
3%
Other Christian
112
15%
 
Total votes : 772

User avatar
Lower Nubia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1001
Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:02 am

Ghost in the Shell wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Not to mention it reads quite Catholic.

Something KJV-onlyists love to lie about is that KJV1611 was the first English translation but the DRC was completed a year before it, and there is a lot of speculation that KJV1611 took inspiration from the Reims NT translation.


KJV-onlyists don’t use the KJV because they specifically omit the apocrypha.
  1. Graduated
    in Biochemistry
  2. Christian
  3. Aspergers
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  4. English
  5. Centre-right
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 1st July, 2019

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Araraukar
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13779
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:40 am

I guess I could have posted this in its own thread, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

As a preface, I was baptized, raised and confirmed as a Lutheran Christian, and still belong to the Lutheran Church of Finland. Yet I'm also an agnostic atheist. Church membership is basically irrelevant, but the point is that I know what I'm talking about, not merely parroting something I found online.

So, why do Christians wear seatbelts?

This is the reasoning behind the question:

If the Bible is correct, then
  1. the Abrahamic god is real, Jesus was real and was really the son of god and really washed away the original sin that Adam and Eve caused, by dying,
  2. Heaven and Hell are real, and god decides where you end up (exact entry requirements to Heaven vary between different brands of Christianity, but that's pretty universal across them all),
  3. Heaven is an awesome place, where you get to hang out with god and be healthy and happy for all eternity, everyone wants to get there,
  4. Hell is a horrible place, where you'll be tortured for all eternity, nobody wants to go there,
  5. if you've been a good Christian, you go to Heaven after you die,
  6. life is rarely always nice, even if you had the basic necessities sorted out, thus Heaven is a much better place to be.

So dying to go to Heaven is every Christian's greatest wish. No, this does not mean I thought of the religion as a deathcult, it's philosophical logic.

So why seatbelts? Road crashes (it includes motorbike, cyclist and pedestrian deaths) cause, world-wide, nearly 1.25 million deaths every year. That's a really sobering number all on its own.

Even in USA, where wearing a seatbelt is mandatory, and which has some kind of limit (it might vary between states, I haven't looked) on how much alcohol you can have in your system, where cars are relatively safe, and you must have passed a test that proves you know the traffic rules and can actually drive the car, over 36,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2018 (Wikipedia doesn't specify if that means only people in or on the vehicles - it does include pedestrians - or if it also includes cyclists hit by motor vehicles, but it does say it does "not include parking lots, driveways, and private roads", so the actual number is in any case likely higher). Population estimate for USA in 2018 was 327,167,434, so a rough calculation shows about 0.01% of population died in vehicle accidents that year. About 70 times more were injured.

Seat belts reduce car crash fatalities (for people inside the car) by about half, so clearly they are a major factor in crash survivability, and not using one significantly increases your chance of dying in a traffic accident.

So why would someone, whose greatest wish is (by applying Bible's logic) to die as soon as possible, so that they can go to Heaven, want to use something that makes that less likely to happen?

This dilemma has led me to these possible conclusions:

1. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't really believe there is an afterlife.

2. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't believe they have lived sinlessly enough, and thus fear they might end up in Hell instead of Heaven.

For myself, I subscribe to conclusion #1, wear a seatbelt, use public transport whenever I can, drive carefully within the speed limits and try to not use my beliefs or the lack of them to oppress others. Live and let live and all that.

Check the spoilers below to see if your reply to this has already been addressed. I will respond to new arguments on this thread.

Counter arguments I've heard, and my replies to them:

Argument: Not wearing a seatbelt would amount to suicide, and suicide means going to Hell.

Reply: Is driving a car also suicide? You're much more likely to die in a car crash if you're driving a car than if you're not. A seatbelt would merely make you more likely to die, instead of being (merely/badly) injured. It doesn't affect the amount of crashes, or your chances of ending up in a crash. Unless you drive recklessly because you have a seat belt, in which case stop trying to murder other people!!!

Argument: God has an ineffable plan for everything, so everything I do is known by him in advance, and that includes my use of seatbelts.

Reply: I'm fairly sure the Bible also says that god gave humans free will. And since the great plan is ineffable, how do you know you're not supposed to die ASAP in a car crash?

Argument: According to Jesus, we should use our lives to do good deeds, being reckless in traffic isn't a good deed.

Reply: Jesus also talked about how you must treat your slaves. How are you treating your slaves? Also, nobody's saying you should increase your chances of ending up in an accident. I'm merely asking why you wouldn't want to die in the case you do end up in one? Don't you want to go to Heaven?

Agument: Law says I have to wear one and if I don't, I'll get fined/lose my driver's licence.

Reply: Are you really saying that man's law is above god's law? If that's the case, why are god's laws being used to harass people who follow man's laws? And if god's laws are above man's laws, then you should be stoning or drowning adulterers (I forget which) and be free to take slaves and do all kinds of things that are forbidden by man's law. And if you wear polyester-cotton undies, you go to Hell. I'm also pretty sure there's something even in the Bible that says how you won't be able to take you wealth with you when you die, so losing some earthly possessions shouldn't be a problem.

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Doesn't this argument work on many other things too, like antibiotics and looking both ways before crossing the road?

A: Yes, but I chose seat belts in particular because I'm absolutely sure they were not mentioned in the Bible. There are some things about medications and health - even a ritual for abortion! - which I didn't want to pop up to distract people.

Q: Wouldn't self-preservation instinct alone make you wear a seatbelt? Nobody wants to die.

A: Why wouldn't they want to die? They'd go to Heaven. Also, clearly the instinct doesn't apply to seatbelts, given how many people still drive a car without one on.

Q: Why do you take Bible so literally?

A: I don't. I think it was written by mortal men for their own purposes, and shouldn't be used as more than a general "don't be a dick" guide.

That's not, however, how many self-confessed Christians use it. They use it to oppress and control others. Which, ironically, is likely closer to the reason why it was written in the first place. But the point is that they take it literally, when shouting about how being gay/having premarital sex/getting an abortion is wrong because of what Bible says. Yet they don't take it literally when applying the Bible-logic to themselves.

Q: Doesn't this logic apply to most major religions? Why are you singling out Christianity?

A: Because for all legal purposes I am a Christian, I was brought up as one, etc., and because it's the religion I know most about. If you're not a Christian, but feel the pointers apply to your religion too, feel free to try to answer the question as well, for your religion.

Q: Are you just trolling Christians?

A: No, this is something I actually would like to know the answer to. I know that I personally am careful in traffic because I don't believe there's an afterlife, and so I'm quite fond of this one life I have, even if it's occasionally painful or boring.
- Linda Äyrämäki, acting ambassador in the absence of miss Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk.

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Often sorely lacking
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Silly GA spammers

User avatar
Tarsonis
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9226
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tarsonis » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:37 am

Araraukar wrote:I guess I could have posted this in its own thread, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

As a preface, I was baptized, raised and confirmed as a Lutheran Christian, and still belong to the Lutheran Church of Finland. Yet I'm also an agnostic atheist. Church membership is basically irrelevant, but the point is that I know what I'm talking about, not merely parroting something I found online.

So, why do Christians wear seatbelts?

This is the reasoning behind the question:

If the Bible is correct, then
  1. the Abrahamic god is real, Jesus was real and was really the son of god and really washed away the original sin that Adam and Eve caused, by dying,
  2. Heaven and Hell are real, and god decides where you end up (exact entry requirements to Heaven vary between different brands of Christianity, but that's pretty universal across them all),
  3. Heaven is an awesome place, where you get to hang out with god and be healthy and happy for all eternity, everyone wants to get there,
  4. Hell is a horrible place, where you'll be tortured for all eternity, nobody wants to go there,
  5. if you've been a good Christian, you go to Heaven after you die,
  6. life is rarely always nice, even if you had the basic necessities sorted out, thus Heaven is a much better place to be.

So dying to go to Heaven is every Christian's greatest wish. No, this does not mean I thought of the religion as a deathcult, it's philosophical logic.

So why seatbelts? Road crashes (it includes motorbike, cyclist and pedestrian deaths) cause, world-wide, nearly 1.25 million deaths every year. That's a really sobering number all on its own.

Even in USA, where wearing a seatbelt is mandatory, and which has some kind of limit (it might vary between states, I haven't looked) on how much alcohol you can have in your system, where cars are relatively safe, and you must have passed a test that proves you know the traffic rules and can actually drive the car, over 36,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2018 (Wikipedia doesn't specify if that means only people in or on the vehicles - it does include pedestrians - or if it also includes cyclists hit by motor vehicles, but it does say it does "not include parking lots, driveways, and private roads", so the actual number is in any case likely higher). Population estimate for USA in 2018 was 327,167,434, so a rough calculation shows about 0.01% of population died in vehicle accidents that year. About 70 times more were injured.

Seat belts reduce car crash fatalities (for people inside the car) by about half, so clearly they are a major factor in crash survivability, and not using one significantly increases your chance of dying in a traffic accident.

So why would someone, whose greatest wish is (by applying Bible's logic) to die as soon as possible, so that they can go to Heaven, want to use something that makes that less likely to happen?

This dilemma has led me to these possible conclusions:

1. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't really believe there is an afterlife.

2. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't believe they have lived sinlessly enough, and thus fear they might end up in Hell instead of Heaven.

For myself, I subscribe to conclusion #1, wear a seatbelt, use public transport whenever I can, drive carefully within the speed limits and try to not use my beliefs or the lack of them to oppress others. Live and let live and all that.

Check the spoilers below to see if your reply to this has already been addressed. I will respond to new arguments on this thread.

Counter arguments I've heard, and my replies to them:

Argument: Not wearing a seatbelt would amount to suicide, and suicide means going to Hell.

Reply: Is driving a car also suicide? You're much more likely to die in a car crash if you're driving a car than if you're not. A seatbelt would merely make you more likely to die, instead of being (merely/badly) injured. It doesn't affect the amount of crashes, or your chances of ending up in a crash. Unless you drive recklessly because you have a seat belt, in which case stop trying to murder other people!!!

Argument: God has an ineffable plan for everything, so everything I do is known by him in advance, and that includes my use of seatbelts.

Reply: I'm fairly sure the Bible also says that god gave humans free will. And since the great plan is ineffable, how do you know you're not supposed to die ASAP in a car crash?

Argument: According to Jesus, we should use our lives to do good deeds, being reckless in traffic isn't a good deed.

Reply: Jesus also talked about how you must treat your slaves. How are you treating your slaves? Also, nobody's saying you should increase your chances of ending up in an accident. I'm merely asking why you wouldn't want to die in the case you do end up in one? Don't you want to go to Heaven?

Agument: Law says I have to wear one and if I don't, I'll get fined/lose my driver's licence.

Reply: Are you really saying that man's law is above god's law? If that's the case, why are god's laws being used to harass people who follow man's laws? And if god's laws are above man's laws, then you should be stoning or drowning adulterers (I forget which) and be free to take slaves and do all kinds of things that are forbidden by man's law. And if you wear polyester-cotton undies, you go to Hell. I'm also pretty sure there's something even in the Bible that says how you won't be able to take you wealth with you when you die, so losing some earthly possessions shouldn't be a problem.

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Doesn't this argument work on many other things too, like antibiotics and looking both ways before crossing the road?

A: Yes, but I chose seat belts in particular because I'm absolutely sure they were not mentioned in the Bible. There are some things about medications and health - even a ritual for abortion! - which I didn't want to pop up to distract people.

Q: Wouldn't self-preservation instinct alone make you wear a seatbelt? Nobody wants to die.

A: Why wouldn't they want to die? They'd go to Heaven. Also, clearly the instinct doesn't apply to seatbelts, given how many people still drive a car without one on.

Q: Why do you take Bible so literally?

A: I don't. I think it was written by mortal men for their own purposes, and shouldn't be used as more than a general "don't be a dick" guide.

That's not, however, how many self-confessed Christians use it. They use it to oppress and control others. Which, ironically, is likely closer to the reason why it was written in the first place. But the point is that they take it literally, when shouting about how being gay/having premarital sex/getting an abortion is wrong because of what Bible says. Yet they don't take it literally when applying the Bible-logic to themselves.

Q: Doesn't this logic apply to most major religions? Why are you singling out Christianity?

A: Because for all legal purposes I am a Christian, I was brought up as one, etc., and because it's the religion I know most about. If you're not a Christian, but feel the pointers apply to your religion too, feel free to try to answer the question as well, for your religion.

Q: Are you just trolling Christians?

A: No, this is something I actually would like to know the answer to. I know that I personally am careful in traffic because I don't believe there's an afterlife, and so I'm quite fond of this one life I have, even if it's occasionally painful or boring.



Set preservation is a natural instinct. This whole bit is a load of tripe
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Lower Nubia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1001
Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:43 am

Araraukar wrote:I guess I could have posted this in its own thread, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

As a preface, I was baptized, raised and confirmed as a Lutheran Christian, and still belong to the Lutheran Church of Finland. Yet I'm also an agnostic atheist. Church membership is basically irrelevant, but the point is that I know what I'm talking about, not merely parroting something I found online.

So, why do Christians wear seatbelts?

This is the reasoning behind the question:

If the Bible is correct, then
  1. the Abrahamic god is real, Jesus was real and was really the son of god and really washed away the original sin that Adam and Eve caused, by dying,
  2. Heaven and Hell are real, and god decides where you end up (exact entry requirements to Heaven vary between different brands of Christianity, but that's pretty universal across them all),
  3. Heaven is an awesome place, where you get to hang out with god and be healthy and happy for all eternity, everyone wants to get there,
  4. Hell is a horrible place, where you'll be tortured for all eternity, nobody wants to go there,
  5. if you've been a good Christian, you go to Heaven after you die,
  6. life is rarely always nice, even if you had the basic necessities sorted out, thus Heaven is a much better place to be.

So dying to go to Heaven is every Christian's greatest wish. No, this does not mean I thought of the religion as a deathcult, it's philosophical logic.

So why seatbelts? Road crashes (it includes motorbike, cyclist and pedestrian deaths) cause, world-wide, nearly 1.25 million deaths every year. That's a really sobering number all on its own.

Even in USA, where wearing a seatbelt is mandatory, and which has some kind of limit (it might vary between states, I haven't looked) on how much alcohol you can have in your system, where cars are relatively safe, and you must have passed a test that proves you know the traffic rules and can actually drive the car, over 36,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2018 (Wikipedia doesn't specify if that means only people in or on the vehicles - it does include pedestrians - or if it also includes cyclists hit by motor vehicles, but it does say it does "not include parking lots, driveways, and private roads", so the actual number is in any case likely higher). Population estimate for USA in 2018 was 327,167,434, so a rough calculation shows about 0.01% of population died in vehicle accidents that year. About 70 times more were injured.

Seat belts reduce car crash fatalities (for people inside the car) by about half, so clearly they are a major factor in crash survivability, and not using one significantly increases your chance of dying in a traffic accident.

So why would someone, whose greatest wish is (by applying Bible's logic) to die as soon as possible, so that they can go to Heaven, want to use something that makes that less likely to happen?

This dilemma has led me to these possible conclusions:

1. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't really believe there is an afterlife.

2. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't believe they have lived sinlessly enough, and thus fear they might end up in Hell instead of Heaven.

For myself, I subscribe to conclusion #1, wear a seatbelt, use public transport whenever I can, drive carefully within the speed limits and try to not use my beliefs or the lack of them to oppress others. Live and let live and all that.

Check the spoilers below to see if your reply to this has already been addressed. I will respond to new arguments on this thread.

Counter arguments I've heard, and my replies to them:

Argument: Not wearing a seatbelt would amount to suicide, and suicide means going to Hell.

Reply: Is driving a car also suicide? You're much more likely to die in a car crash if you're driving a car than if you're not. A seatbelt would merely make you more likely to die, instead of being (merely/badly) injured. It doesn't affect the amount of crashes, or your chances of ending up in a crash. Unless you drive recklessly because you have a seat belt, in which case stop trying to murder other people!!!

Argument: God has an ineffable plan for everything, so everything I do is known by him in advance, and that includes my use of seatbelts.

Reply: I'm fairly sure the Bible also says that god gave humans free will. And since the great plan is ineffable, how do you know you're not supposed to die ASAP in a car crash?

Argument: According to Jesus, we should use our lives to do good deeds, being reckless in traffic isn't a good deed.

Reply: Jesus also talked about how you must treat your slaves. How are you treating your slaves? Also, nobody's saying you should increase your chances of ending up in an accident. I'm merely asking why you wouldn't want to die in the case you do end up in one? Don't you want to go to Heaven?

Agument: Law says I have to wear one and if I don't, I'll get fined/lose my driver's licence.

Reply: Are you really saying that man's law is above god's law? If that's the case, why are god's laws being used to harass people who follow man's laws? And if god's laws are above man's laws, then you should be stoning or drowning adulterers (I forget which) and be free to take slaves and do all kinds of things that are forbidden by man's law. And if you wear polyester-cotton undies, you go to Hell. I'm also pretty sure there's something even in the Bible that says how you won't be able to take you wealth with you when you die, so losing some earthly possessions shouldn't be a problem.

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Doesn't this argument work on many other things too, like antibiotics and looking both ways before crossing the road?

A: Yes, but I chose seat belts in particular because I'm absolutely sure they were not mentioned in the Bible. There are some things about medications and health - even a ritual for abortion! - which I didn't want to pop up to distract people.

Q: Wouldn't self-preservation instinct alone make you wear a seatbelt? Nobody wants to die.

A: Why wouldn't they want to die? They'd go to Heaven. Also, clearly the instinct doesn't apply to seatbelts, given how many people still drive a car without one on.

Q: Why do you take Bible so literally?

A: I don't. I think it was written by mortal men for their own purposes, and shouldn't be used as more than a general "don't be a dick" guide.

That's not, however, how many self-confessed Christians use it. They use it to oppress and control others. Which, ironically, is likely closer to the reason why it was written in the first place. But the point is that they take it literally, when shouting about how being gay/having premarital sex/getting an abortion is wrong because of what Bible says. Yet they don't take it literally when applying the Bible-logic to themselves.

Q: Doesn't this logic apply to most major religions? Why are you singling out Christianity?

A: Because for all legal purposes I am a Christian, I was brought up as one, etc., and because it's the religion I know most about. If you're not a Christian, but feel the pointers apply to your religion too, feel free to try to answer the question as well, for your religion.

Q: Are you just trolling Christians?

A: No, this is something I actually would like to know the answer to. I know that I personally am careful in traffic because I don't believe there's an afterlife, and so I'm quite fond of this one life I have, even if it's occasionally painful or boring.


You make a mistake, going to heaven is not every Christian’s wish, but being a good and loyal servant to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Which requires service here on Earth, for as long as possible, thus, as recklessness is not being a good servant with entrusted life and oath it cannot be permissible.
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
  1. Graduated
    in Biochemistry
  2. Christian
  3. Aspergers
    Syndrome
  4. English
  5. Centre-right
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 1st July, 2019

User avatar
Diopolis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13119
Founded: May 15, 2012
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Diopolis » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:50 am

Araraukar wrote:I guess I could have posted this in its own thread, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

As a preface, I was baptized, raised and confirmed as a Lutheran Christian, and still belong to the Lutheran Church of Finland. Yet I'm also an agnostic atheist. Church membership is basically irrelevant, but the point is that I know what I'm talking about, not merely parroting something I found online.

So, why do Christians wear seatbelts?

This is the reasoning behind the question:

If the Bible is correct, then
  1. the Abrahamic god is real, Jesus was real and was really the son of god and really washed away the original sin that Adam and Eve caused, by dying,
  2. Heaven and Hell are real, and god decides where you end up (exact entry requirements to Heaven vary between different brands of Christianity, but that's pretty universal across them all),
  3. Heaven is an awesome place, where you get to hang out with god and be healthy and happy for all eternity, everyone wants to get there,
  4. Hell is a horrible place, where you'll be tortured for all eternity, nobody wants to go there,
  5. if you've been a good Christian, you go to Heaven after you die,
  6. life is rarely always nice, even if you had the basic necessities sorted out, thus Heaven is a much better place to be.

So dying to go to Heaven is every Christian's greatest wish. No, this does not mean I thought of the religion as a deathcult, it's philosophical logic.

So why seatbelts? Road crashes (it includes motorbike, cyclist and pedestrian deaths) cause, world-wide, nearly 1.25 million deaths every year. That's a really sobering number all on its own.

Even in USA, where wearing a seatbelt is mandatory, and which has some kind of limit (it might vary between states, I haven't looked) on how much alcohol you can have in your system, where cars are relatively safe, and you must have passed a test that proves you know the traffic rules and can actually drive the car, over 36,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2018 (Wikipedia doesn't specify if that means only people in or on the vehicles - it does include pedestrians - or if it also includes cyclists hit by motor vehicles, but it does say it does "not include parking lots, driveways, and private roads", so the actual number is in any case likely higher). Population estimate for USA in 2018 was 327,167,434, so a rough calculation shows about 0.01% of population died in vehicle accidents that year. About 70 times more were injured.

Seat belts reduce car crash fatalities (for people inside the car) by about half, so clearly they are a major factor in crash survivability, and not using one significantly increases your chance of dying in a traffic accident.

So why would someone, whose greatest wish is (by applying Bible's logic) to die as soon as possible, so that they can go to Heaven, want to use something that makes that less likely to happen?

This dilemma has led me to these possible conclusions:

1. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't really believe there is an afterlife.

2. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't believe they have lived sinlessly enough, and thus fear they might end up in Hell instead of Heaven.

For myself, I subscribe to conclusion #1, wear a seatbelt, use public transport whenever I can, drive carefully within the speed limits and try to not use my beliefs or the lack of them to oppress others. Live and let live and all that.

Check the spoilers below to see if your reply to this has already been addressed. I will respond to new arguments on this thread.

Counter arguments I've heard, and my replies to them:

Argument: Not wearing a seatbelt would amount to suicide, and suicide means going to Hell.

Reply: Is driving a car also suicide? You're much more likely to die in a car crash if you're driving a car than if you're not. A seatbelt would merely make you more likely to die, instead of being (merely/badly) injured. It doesn't affect the amount of crashes, or your chances of ending up in a crash. Unless you drive recklessly because you have a seat belt, in which case stop trying to murder other people!!!

Argument: God has an ineffable plan for everything, so everything I do is known by him in advance, and that includes my use of seatbelts.

Reply: I'm fairly sure the Bible also says that god gave humans free will. And since the great plan is ineffable, how do you know you're not supposed to die ASAP in a car crash?

Argument: According to Jesus, we should use our lives to do good deeds, being reckless in traffic isn't a good deed.

Reply: Jesus also talked about how you must treat your slaves. How are you treating your slaves? Also, nobody's saying you should increase your chances of ending up in an accident. I'm merely asking why you wouldn't want to die in the case you do end up in one? Don't you want to go to Heaven?

Agument: Law says I have to wear one and if I don't, I'll get fined/lose my driver's licence.

Reply: Are you really saying that man's law is above god's law? If that's the case, why are god's laws being used to harass people who follow man's laws? And if god's laws are above man's laws, then you should be stoning or drowning adulterers (I forget which) and be free to take slaves and do all kinds of things that are forbidden by man's law. And if you wear polyester-cotton undies, you go to Hell. I'm also pretty sure there's something even in the Bible that says how you won't be able to take you wealth with you when you die, so losing some earthly possessions shouldn't be a problem.

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Doesn't this argument work on many other things too, like antibiotics and looking both ways before crossing the road?

A: Yes, but I chose seat belts in particular because I'm absolutely sure they were not mentioned in the Bible. There are some things about medications and health - even a ritual for abortion! - which I didn't want to pop up to distract people.

Q: Wouldn't self-preservation instinct alone make you wear a seatbelt? Nobody wants to die.

A: Why wouldn't they want to die? They'd go to Heaven. Also, clearly the instinct doesn't apply to seatbelts, given how many people still drive a car without one on.

Q: Why do you take Bible so literally?

A: I don't. I think it was written by mortal men for their own purposes, and shouldn't be used as more than a general "don't be a dick" guide.

That's not, however, how many self-confessed Christians use it. They use it to oppress and control others. Which, ironically, is likely closer to the reason why it was written in the first place. But the point is that they take it literally, when shouting about how being gay/having premarital sex/getting an abortion is wrong because of what Bible says. Yet they don't take it literally when applying the Bible-logic to themselves.

Q: Doesn't this logic apply to most major religions? Why are you singling out Christianity?

A: Because for all legal purposes I am a Christian, I was brought up as one, etc., and because it's the religion I know most about. If you're not a Christian, but feel the pointers apply to your religion too, feel free to try to answer the question as well, for your religion.

Q: Are you just trolling Christians?

A: No, this is something I actually would like to know the answer to. I know that I personally am careful in traffic because I don't believe there's an afterlife, and so I'm quite fond of this one life I have, even if it's occasionally painful or boring.

1) Christians are required to obey the lawful commands of legitimate authority, and seatbelts are the law.
2) Christians believe that there is no moral distinction between suicide and murder as all life belongs to God. Taking unnecessary risks with ones own life is as sinful as recklessly endangering another’s.
3) The RCC teaches that our penance count for more in this world, so that for very holy people living longer will shorten their time in purgatory by enough that they will actually get to heaven sooner that way.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:29 am

Araraukar wrote:I guess I could have posted this in its own thread, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?


Obviously you're unfamiliar with 1 Samuel 20:16-23


16 So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, “May the Lord call David’s enemies to account.”

17 And Jonathan had David reaffirm his oath out of love for him, because he loved him as he loved himself.

18 Then Jonathan said to David, “Tomorrow is the New Moon feast. You will be missed, because your seat will be empty.

19 The day after tomorrow, toward evening, go to the cart where you hid when this trouble began, and fasten your belt.

20 I will shoot three arrows to the side of the cart, which shall frighten the oxen.

21 The oxen shall then bolt, but you shall be secure, for you have fastened your belt in the oxen cart's seat.

22 Thus shall you be hidden from the king during the New Moon feast when he sits down to eat.

23 And your wearing of the belt in the cart with the bolting oxen shall be a sign of the covenant of the LORD with your house.



So you see, it's in the Bible. The covenant made with the House of David requires both Jews and Christians to wear seatbelts.

I concede that I might have taken some minor liberties with the usual translation of those verses, but I'm sure you'll find that my version is much closer to the original Hebrew if you care to check the surviving manuscripts.

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Postby Hakons » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:11 pm

Araraukar wrote:As a preface, I was baptized, raised and confirmed as a Lutheran Christian, and still belong to the Lutheran Church of Finland. Yet I'm also an agnostic atheist.

Big oof

If you're atheist, you necessarily cannot be a member of a church. The Lutheran Church of Finland has a statement of belief required for membership that you reject. The only reason you're still a member is because you're lying by omission and not telling your priest/bishop that you're no longer a member of the faithful.
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Postby Kernen » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:16 pm

Hakons wrote:
Araraukar wrote:As a preface, I was baptized, raised and confirmed as a Lutheran Christian, and still belong to the Lutheran Church of Finland. Yet I'm also an agnostic atheist.

Big oof

If you're atheist, you necessarily cannot be a member of a church. The Lutheran Church of Finland has a statement of belief required for membership that you reject. The only reason you're still a member is because you're lying by omission and not telling your priest/bishop that you're no longer a member of the faithful.


And yet, he's still a member. Lying is great like that. I suspect that the community found through the church is more valuable to the community and to Ara than the harm that Ara does to the community by lying.
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:16 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:Obviously you're unfamiliar with 1 Samuel 20:16-23

I concede that I might have taken some minor liberties with the usual translation of those verses, but I'm sure you'll find that my version is much closer to the original Hebrew if you care to check the surviving manuscripts.

LOL. I'll check the usually accepted English verses on that later, but if that were true then the question "why do so many Christians not wear a seatbelt, if the Bible says they should?" would raise its head. :P



Lower Nubia wrote:going to heaven is not every Christian’s wish, but being a good and loyal servant to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

...the point of which is that after you die, you get to go to Heaven.

Which requires service here on Earth, for as long as possible, thus, as recklessness is not being a good servant with entrusted life and oath it cannot be permissible.

What does "entrusted life and oath" mean here? Most of my church vocabulary is in Finnish, so I don't recognize that. As for recklessness, do you own/drive a car often? Every time you do, you're being reckless, given how many people die in car accidents every year. Mass transport is much safer.



Diopolis wrote:1) Christians are required to obey the lawful commands of legitimate authority, and seatbelts are the law.
2) Christians believe that there is no moral distinction between suicide and murder as all life belongs to God. Taking unnecessary risks with ones own life is as sinful as recklessly endangering another’s.
3) The RCC teaches that our penance count for more in this world, so that for very holy people living longer will shorten their time in purgatory by enough that they will actually get to heaven sooner that way.

1. Can you point out the Bible verses that say so?
2. If all life belongs to god and killing any life is wrong... what do you eat? If you're only talking of human lives, then how do you justify soldiers who are Christian, who kill other people when they (quoting you) "obey the lawful commands of legitimate authority"? Is man's law above god's law? If god says "don't kill" and a man with "legitimate authority" says "kill", which do you obey?
3. What is RCC? And how does that work for Christians who don't believe in a purgatory? (Is purgatory even mentioned in the Bible? Other than in the whole end of times madness.)



Hakons wrote:If you're atheist, you necessarily cannot be a member of a church.

I literally am a member of the church. Not that I've been in a church for many years other than to look at an art installation. Doesn't change the fact that I'm listed as a congregation member.

The Lutheran Church of Finland has a statement of belief required for membership that you reject.

I haven't believed in what the church teaches, since I was 9. Didn't stop me from going through the motions along with everyone else who didn't believe and also just went through the motions, and got confirmed with most of the rest of my age group. Until they figure out a mindreading device, all they know is that you say the right words and do the right things, so you get to be a full-fledged congregation member.

The only reason you're still a member is because you're lying by omission and not telling your priest/bishop that you're no longer a member of the faithful.

I could tell them that right away and they couldn't throw me out of the church anyway. It just doesn't work like that. Though resigning from it is as easy as proving your identity on a website set up for the very purpose of resigning from the church.

Kernen wrote:And yet, he's still a member. Lying is great like that. I suspect that the community found through the church is more valuable to the community and to Ara than the harm that Ara does to the community by lying.

What community? Nordic countries are so secular that even though the majority of people belong to the church, only a few percent go to church other than for baptisms, confirmations, weddings and funerals. Which is actually why I am still in the church, because the Christian cemetery is much prettier and easier to reach than the one for other faiths (they count non-church people as "other faith"), so if I should die accidentally, my family would have an easier time to go put a candle on the grave at Christmas. :P

Now, do you two have any actual arguments besides personal attacks?
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Postby Europa Undivided » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:42 pm

We wear seatbelts because not doing so is just dumb.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:52 pm

Araraukar wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:Obviously you're unfamiliar with 1 Samuel 20:16-23

I concede that I might have taken some minor liberties with the usual translation of those verses, but I'm sure you'll find that my version is much closer to the original Hebrew if you care to check the surviving manuscripts.

LOL. I'll check the usually accepted English verses on that later, but if that were true then the question "why do so many Christians not wear a seatbelt, if the Bible says they should?" would raise its head. :P



Lower Nubia wrote:going to heaven is not every Christian’s wish, but being a good and loyal servant to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

...the point of which is that after you die, you get to go to Heaven.

Which requires service here on Earth, for as long as possible, thus, as recklessness is not being a good servant with entrusted life and oath it cannot be permissible.

What does "entrusted life and oath" mean here? Most of my church vocabulary is in Finnish, so I don't recognize that. As for recklessness, do you own/drive a car often? Every time you do, you're being reckless, given how many people die in car accidents every year. Mass transport is much safer.



Diopolis wrote:1) Christians are required to obey the lawful commands of legitimate authority, and seatbelts are the law.
2) Christians believe that there is no moral distinction between suicide and murder as all life belongs to God. Taking unnecessary risks with ones own life is as sinful as recklessly endangering another’s.
3) The RCC teaches that our penance count for more in this world, so that for very holy people living longer will shorten their time in purgatory by enough that they will actually get to heaven sooner that way.

1. Can you point out the Bible verses that say so?
2. If all life belongs to god and killing any life is wrong... what do you eat? If you're only talking of human lives, then how do you justify soldiers who are Christian, who kill other people when they (quoting you) "obey the lawful commands of legitimate authority"? Is man's law above god's law? If god says "don't kill" and a man with "legitimate authority" says "kill", which do you obey?
3. What is RCC? And how does that work for Christians who don't believe in a purgatory? (Is purgatory even mentioned in the Bible? Other than in the whole end of times madness.)



Hakons wrote:If you're atheist, you necessarily cannot be a member of a church.

I literally am a member of the church. Not that I've been in a church for many years other than to look at an art installation. Doesn't change the fact that I'm listed as a congregation member.

The Lutheran Church of Finland has a statement of belief required for membership that you reject.

I haven't believed in what the church teaches, since I was 9. Didn't stop me from going through the motions along with everyone else who didn't believe and also just went through the motions, and got confirmed with most of the rest of my age group. Until they figure out a mindreading device, all they know is that you say the right words and do the right things, so you get to be a full-fledged congregation member.

The only reason you're still a member is because you're lying by omission and not telling your priest/bishop that you're no longer a member of the faithful.

I could tell them that right away and they couldn't throw me out of the church anyway. It just doesn't work like that. Though resigning from it is as easy as proving your identity on a website set up for the very purpose of resigning from the church.

Kernen wrote:And yet, he's still a member. Lying is great like that. I suspect that the community found through the church is more valuable to the community and to Ara than the harm that Ara does to the community by lying.

What community? Nordic countries are so secular that even though the majority of people belong to the church, only a few percent go to church other than for baptisms, confirmations, weddings and funerals. Which is actually why I am still in the church, because the Christian cemetery is much prettier and easier to reach than the one for other faiths (they count non-church people as "other faith"), so if I should die accidentally, my family would have an easier time to go put a candle on the grave at Christmas. :P

Now, do you two have any actual arguments besides personal attacks?


Nobody has personally attacked you. And they’ve been more than gracious in trying to give you arguments.

I won’t be. Your premise is sophist nonsense that doesn’t even deserve the dignity of a rebuttal. Forget doctrine, your conclusion doesn’t even naturally follow from your premise. The belief in event A, even if it’s a desirable outcome, does not necessitate action B to facilitate the occurrence of A, especially if A is inevitable to begin with.

There are a thousand and one natural reasons to take steps to preserve one’s life, before you get to doctrinal opinions on the matter. Your argument, if it can really even be called that, is typical r/atheism “gotcha” bullshit that into this forum every six months or so. As usual,everyone will prove you wrong, and as your attitude suggests, you’ll refuse to accept it, dismissing all contrary arguments out of hand, and eventually you’ll just fade away and nobody will have convinced anybody of anything. So what say we skip to the end of this silly charade?
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Postby Kernen » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:02 pm

Araraukar wrote:Now, do you two have any actual arguments besides personal attacks?


Oh, I'm on your side, as another atheist. I'm not attacking you.
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Postby Narland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:03 pm

Araraukar wrote:I guess I could have posted this in its own thread
, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

As a preface, I was baptized, raised and confirmed as a Lutheran Christian, and still belong to the Lutheran Church of Finland. Yet I'm also an agnostic atheist. Church membership is basically irrelevant, but the point is that I know what I'm talking about, not merely parroting something I found online.

So, why do Christians wear seatbelts?

This is the reasoning behind the question:

If the Bible is correct, then
  1. the Abrahamic god is real, Jesus was real and was really the son of god and really washed away the original sin that Adam and Eve caused, by dying,
  2. Heaven and Hell are real, and god decides where you end up (exact entry requirements to Heaven vary between different brands of Christianity, but that's pretty universal across them all),
  3. Heaven is an awesome place, where you get to hang out with god and be healthy and happy for all eternity, everyone wants to get there,
  4. Hell is a horrible place, where you'll be tortured for all eternity, nobody wants to go there,
  5. if you've been a good Christian, you go to Heaven after you die,
  6. life is rarely always nice, even if you had the basic necessities sorted out, thus Heaven is a much better place to be.

So dying to go to Heaven is every Christian's greatest wish. No, this does not mean I thought of the religion as a deathcult, it's philosophical logic.

So why seatbelts? Road crashes (it includes motorbike, cyclist and pedestrian deaths) cause, world-wide, nearly 1.25 million deaths every year. That's a really sobering number all on its own.

Even in USA, where wearing a seatbelt is mandatory, and which has some kind of limit (it might vary between states, I haven't looked) on how much alcohol you can have in your system, where cars are relatively safe, and you must have passed a test that proves you know the traffic rules and can actually drive the car, over 36,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2018 (Wikipedia doesn't specify if that means only people in or on the vehicles - it does include pedestrians - or if it also includes cyclists hit by motor vehicles, but it does say it does "not include parking lots, driveways, and private roads", so the actual number is in any case likely higher). Population estimate for USA in 2018 was 327,167,434, so a rough calculation shows about 0.01% of population died in vehicle accidents that year. About 70 times more were injured.

Seat belts reduce car crash fatalities (for people inside the car) by about half, so clearly they are a major factor in crash survivability, and not using one significantly increases your chance of dying in a traffic accident.

So why would someone, whose greatest wish is (by applying Bible's logic) to die as soon as possible, so that they can go to Heaven, want to use something that makes that less likely to happen?

This dilemma has led me to these possible conclusions:

1. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't really believe there is an afterlife.

2. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't believe they have lived sinlessly enough, and thus fear they might end up in Hell instead of Heaven.

For myself, I subscribe to conclusion #1, wear a seatbelt, use public transport whenever I can, drive carefully within the speed limits and try to not use my beliefs or the lack of them to oppress others. Live and let live and all that.

Check the spoilers below to see if your reply to this has already been addressed. I will respond to new arguments on this thread.

Counter arguments I've heard, and my replies to them:

Argument: Not wearing a seatbelt would amount to suicide, and suicide means going to Hell.

Reply: Is driving a car also suicide? You're much more likely to die in a car crash if you're driving a car than if you're not. A seatbelt would merely make you more likely to die, instead of being (merely/badly) injured. It doesn't affect the amount of crashes, or your chances of ending up in a crash. Unless you drive recklessly because you have a seat belt, in which case stop trying to murder other people!!!

Argument: God has an ineffable plan for everything, so everything I do is known by him in advance, and that includes my use of seatbelts.

Reply: I'm fairly sure the Bible also says that god gave humans free will. And since the great plan is ineffable, how do you know you're not supposed to die ASAP in a car crash?

Argument: According to Jesus, we should use our lives to do good deeds, being reckless in traffic isn't a good deed.

Reply: Jesus also talked about how you must treat your slaves. How are you treating your slaves? Also, nobody's saying you should increase your chances of ending up in an accident. I'm merely asking why you wouldn't want to die in the case you do end up in one? Don't you want to go to Heaven?

Agument: Law says I have to wear one and if I don't, I'll get fined/lose my driver's licence.

Reply: Are you really saying that man's law is above god's law? If that's the case, why are god's laws being used to harass people who follow man's laws? And if god's laws are above man's laws, then you should be stoning or drowning adulterers (I forget which) and be free to take slaves and do all kinds of things that are forbidden by man's law. And if you wear polyester-cotton undies, you go to Hell. I'm also pretty sure there's something even in the Bible that says how you won't be able to take you wealth with you when you die, so losing some earthly possessions shouldn't be a problem.

[spoiler=Frequently Asked Questions]Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Doesn't this argument work on many other things too, like antibiotics and looking both ways before crossing the road?

A: Yes, but I chose seat belts in particular because I'm absolutely sure they were not mentioned in the Bible. There are some things about medications and health - even a ritual for abortion! - which I didn't want to pop up to distract people.

Q: Wouldn't self-preservation instinct alone make you wear a seatbelt? Nobody wants to die.

A: Why wouldn't they want to die? They'd go to Heaven. Also, clearly the instinct doesn't apply to seatbelts, given how many people still drive a car without one on.

Q: Why do you take Bible so literally?

A: I don't. I think it was written by mortal men for their own purposes, and shouldn't be used as more than a general "don't be a dick" guide.

That's not, however, how many self-confessed Christians use it. They use it to oppress and control others. Which, ironically, is likely closer to the reason why it was written in the first place. But the point is that they take it literally, when shouting about how being gay/having premarital sex/getting an abortion is wrong because of what Bible says. Yet they don't take it literally when applying the Bible-logic to themselves.

Q: Doesn't this logic apply to most major religions? Why are you singling out Christianity?

A: Because for all legal purposes I am a Christian, I was brought up as one, etc., and because it's the religion I know most about. If you're not a Christian, but feel the pointers apply to your religion too, feel free to try to answer the question as well, for your religion.

Q: Are you just trolling Christians?

A: No, this is something I actually would like to know the answer to. I know that I personally am careful in traffic because I don't believe there's an afterlife, and so I'm quite fond of this one life I have, even if it's occasionally painful or boring.
[/spoiler]

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt? For all of the same reasons, purported reasons and non-reasons that nonchristians wear seat belts or do not wear seat belts. I did statistical analysis for a University hired by the Department of Transportation regarding seat belt effectiveness one year in the early 90s. Funny how seat belt use is just as effective or in a few cases detrimental (e.g., overwhelming flash flood, plummeting over a ravine) for anyone regardless of a person' s theistic or atheistic propensity. Health, sleep, weather, terrain, vehicle, and driving conditions are contributing factors as human beings that by God's grace we make it home in one piece.

I reject premise that the Lord of Life wants us not to live our lives to the fullest for His glory (and to cling to life to the best of our ability). I also reject the assumption that Christians must embrace a meaningless death. Death is the last enemy that will be destroyed and It is those who hate hate God who love death.
Last edited by Narland on Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:25 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Evil Dictators Happyland
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:14 pm

Araraukar wrote:I guess I could have posted this in its own thread, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

As a preface, I was baptized, raised and confirmed as a Lutheran Christian, and still belong to the Lutheran Church of Finland. Yet I'm also an agnostic atheist. Church membership is basically irrelevant, but the point is that I know what I'm talking about, not merely parroting something I found online.

So, why do Christians wear seatbelts?

This is the reasoning behind the question:

If the Bible is correct, then
  1. the Abrahamic god is real, Jesus was real and was really the son of god and really washed away the original sin that Adam and Eve caused, by dying,
  2. Heaven and Hell are real, and god decides where you end up (exact entry requirements to Heaven vary between different brands of Christianity, but that's pretty universal across them all),
  3. Heaven is an awesome place, where you get to hang out with god and be healthy and happy for all eternity, everyone wants to get there,
  4. Hell is a horrible place, where you'll be tortured for all eternity, nobody wants to go there,
  5. if you've been a good Christian, you go to Heaven after you die,
  6. life is rarely always nice, even if you had the basic necessities sorted out, thus Heaven is a much better place to be.

So dying to go to Heaven is every Christian's greatest wish. No, this does not mean I thought of the religion as a deathcult, it's philosophical logic.

So why seatbelts? Road crashes (it includes motorbike, cyclist and pedestrian deaths) cause, world-wide, nearly 1.25 million deaths every year. That's a really sobering number all on its own.

Even in USA, where wearing a seatbelt is mandatory, and which has some kind of limit (it might vary between states, I haven't looked) on how much alcohol you can have in your system, where cars are relatively safe, and you must have passed a test that proves you know the traffic rules and can actually drive the car, over 36,000 people died in motor vehicle accidents in 2018 (Wikipedia doesn't specify if that means only people in or on the vehicles - it does include pedestrians - or if it also includes cyclists hit by motor vehicles, but it does say it does "not include parking lots, driveways, and private roads", so the actual number is in any case likely higher). Population estimate for USA in 2018 was 327,167,434, so a rough calculation shows about 0.01% of population died in vehicle accidents that year. About 70 times more were injured.

Seat belts reduce car crash fatalities (for people inside the car) by about half, so clearly they are a major factor in crash survivability, and not using one significantly increases your chance of dying in a traffic accident.

So why would someone, whose greatest wish is (by applying Bible's logic) to die as soon as possible, so that they can go to Heaven, want to use something that makes that less likely to happen?

This dilemma has led me to these possible conclusions:

1. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't really believe there is an afterlife.

2. Seatbelt-wearing Christians don't believe they have lived sinlessly enough, and thus fear they might end up in Hell instead of Heaven.

For myself, I subscribe to conclusion #1, wear a seatbelt, use public transport whenever I can, drive carefully within the speed limits and try to not use my beliefs or the lack of them to oppress others. Live and let live and all that.

Check the spoilers below to see if your reply to this has already been addressed. I will respond to new arguments on this thread.

Counter arguments I've heard, and my replies to them:

Argument: Not wearing a seatbelt would amount to suicide, and suicide means going to Hell.

Reply: Is driving a car also suicide? You're much more likely to die in a car crash if you're driving a car than if you're not. A seatbelt would merely make you more likely to die, instead of being (merely/badly) injured. It doesn't affect the amount of crashes, or your chances of ending up in a crash. Unless you drive recklessly because you have a seat belt, in which case stop trying to murder other people!!!

Argument: God has an ineffable plan for everything, so everything I do is known by him in advance, and that includes my use of seatbelts.

Reply: I'm fairly sure the Bible also says that god gave humans free will. And since the great plan is ineffable, how do you know you're not supposed to die ASAP in a car crash?

Argument: According to Jesus, we should use our lives to do good deeds, being reckless in traffic isn't a good deed.

Reply: Jesus also talked about how you must treat your slaves. How are you treating your slaves? Also, nobody's saying you should increase your chances of ending up in an accident. I'm merely asking why you wouldn't want to die in the case you do end up in one? Don't you want to go to Heaven?

Agument: Law says I have to wear one and if I don't, I'll get fined/lose my driver's licence.

Reply: Are you really saying that man's law is above god's law? If that's the case, why are god's laws being used to harass people who follow man's laws? And if god's laws are above man's laws, then you should be stoning or drowning adulterers (I forget which) and be free to take slaves and do all kinds of things that are forbidden by man's law. And if you wear polyester-cotton undies, you go to Hell. I'm also pretty sure there's something even in the Bible that says how you won't be able to take you wealth with you when you die, so losing some earthly possessions shouldn't be a problem.
Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Doesn't this argument work on many other things too, like antibiotics and looking both ways before crossing the road?

A: Yes, but I chose seat belts in particular because I'm absolutely sure they were not mentioned in the Bible. There are some things about medications and health - even a ritual for abortion! - which I didn't want to pop up to distract people.

Q: Wouldn't self-preservation instinct alone make you wear a seatbelt? Nobody wants to die.

A: Why wouldn't they want to die? They'd go to Heaven. Also, clearly the instinct doesn't apply to seatbelts, given how many people still drive a car without one on.

Q: Why do you take Bible so literally?

A: I don't. I think it was written by mortal men for their own purposes, and shouldn't be used as more than a general "don't be a dick" guide.

That's not, however, how many self-confessed Christians use it. They use it to oppress and control others. Which, ironically, is likely closer to the reason why it was written in the first place. But the point is that they take it literally, when shouting about how being gay/having premarital sex/getting an abortion is wrong because of what Bible says. Yet they don't take it literally when applying the Bible-logic to themselves.

Q: Doesn't this logic apply to most major religions? Why are you singling out Christianity?

A: Because for all legal purposes I am a Christian, I was brought up as one, etc., and because it's the religion I know most about. If you're not a Christian, but feel the pointers apply to your religion too, feel free to try to answer the question as well, for your religion.

Q: Are you just trolling Christians?

A: No, this is something I actually would like to know the answer to. I know that I personally am careful in traffic because I don't believe there's an afterlife, and so I'm quite fond of this one life I have, even if it's occasionally painful or boring.

Dude, I'm an atheist, and even I know that's not how God works. It's hard to pin down exactly how God does work, but He doesn't have a spotless track record of answering the prayers of the stupid, nor would He likely appreciate someone gaming the system by trying to get into Heaven early. I know I wouldn't.
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And to add my US$0.02: This is fucking stupid.

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:57 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:going to heaven is not every Christian’s wish, but being a good and loyal servant to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

...the point of which is that after you die, you get to go to Heaven.


You need to understand imperfect contrition and perfect contrition before making a statement like that.

Araraukar wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:Which requires service here on Earth, for as long as possible, thus, as recklessness is not being a good servant with entrusted life and oath it cannot be permissible.

What does "entrusted life and oath" mean here? Most of my church vocabulary is in Finnish, so I don't recognize that. As for recklessness, do you own/drive a car often? Every time you do, you're being reckless, given how many people die in car accidents every year. Mass transport is much safer.


Yeah, your oath and entrusted life in Christ demand: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

That’s an oath and responsibility of all Christians in their life, it does not say: “die quick, come up here and party mah dudes and dudettes!”

Getting in a car is not reckless. Otherwise you could never charge people with reckless driving, because everyone would be involved in reckless driving, which is obviously nonsense. So the statement: “Everytime time you drive a car you’re being reckless” is nonsense. Reckless would be driving your car at 100 in a 70, or driving on the wrong side of the road, otherwise your statement: “given how many people die every year” would apply to every aspect of life, ever walked down a road? That’s reckless, people die from falling all the time. Every climber a ladder? Reckless. Ever eaten food? Reckless - you might choke!
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:55 pm

Araraukar wrote:Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

This is a good question. Here's the short answer:

Human life -- even on this earth, filled with suffering and misery -- is nonetheless good and a gift from God, so we are obliged to protect and preserve our own lives. In practice, this means wearing seatbelts.



Here's a longer answer:

In our original state, humanity existed in an earthly paradise and possessed a number of special graces, including heightened knowledge, physical immortality, and freedom from suffering and inclination towards evil. But we lost these graces because of original sin.

I do not know what would have happened if we had not sinned. I would guess that we would have been permitted to enter heaven and experience full communion with God (which we do not have and have never had on earth) after reaching a sufficient level of maturity, but this is just speculation.

The point is that God intentionally did not create us in heaven to start with. He wanted us to experience life on earth first, because life on earth is good in its own right and was part of His overall plan for the growth and development of humanity.

Now, despite our initial rejection of God, God in His mercy has redeemed us through Jesus Christ and gave us a second chance to receive what He wanted to give us all along: full communion with him in heaven.

But by our own fault, we have lost the special graces we were originally given. We are responsible for introducing suffering and death into this world, and we must deal with the consequences. Yet despite this, life on this earth is still a gift from God, it is inherently good by nature, it is part of the divine plan, and it is worth living. Thus, we are obliged to protect and safeguard our lives. The self-inflicted wound of original sin does not change that.



You may also be interested in the section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on suicide:

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:07 pm

A couple of arguments already made in this thread are good responses as well, though I think the core argument is the one I made above.

(1) Christians are required to follow legitimate authority and abide by just laws, and wearing seat belts is required by law.

(2) We have duties and obligations to others which we obviously cannot fulfil if we are dead. Similarly, we cannot perform good works if we are dead. Recklessly endangering one's life is therefore irresponsible.
Last edited by Auralia on Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:17 pm

Argument: Not wearing a seatbelt would amount to suicide, and suicide means going to Hell.

Reply: Is driving a car also suicide? You're much more likely to die in a car crash if you're driving a car than if you're not. A seatbelt would merely make you more likely to die, instead of being (merely/badly) injured. It doesn't affect the amount of crashes, or your chances of ending up in a crash. Unless you drive recklessly because you have a seat belt, in which case stop trying to murder other people!!!

I don't really understand this response. There are, of course, discussions to be had about what precisely constitutes reasonable steps to preserve one's own life. But it's silly to argue that any action with the slightest risk of death -- basically everything! -- constitutes suicide.

Agument: Law says I have to wear one and if I don't, I'll get fined/lose my driver's licence.

Reply: Are you really saying that man's law is above god's law? If that's the case, why are god's laws being used to harass people who follow man's laws? And if god's laws are above man's laws, then you should be stoning or drowning adulterers (I forget which) and be free to take slaves and do all kinds of things that are forbidden by man's law. And if you wear polyester-cotton undies, you go to Hell. I'm also pretty sure there's something even in the Bible that says how you won't be able to take you wealth with you when you die, so losing some earthly possessions shouldn't be a problem.

God has endowed states with legitimate authority to order society through just laws. Man's law is not above God's law, but it is binding if it is consistent with God's law.

The ceremonial aspects of the Old Testament law are no longer binding. I would recommend taking a look at questions 98-105 of the Summa.
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Postby Neanderthaland » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 pm

Araraukar wrote:I guess I could have posted this in its own thread, but chances are it would just have been merged to this thread anyway, so posting it here. Please read through all of it (including the spoilers) before replying.

Why do Christians wear a seatbelt?

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Last edited by Neanderthaland on Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Araraukar » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:27 am

Lower Nubia wrote:
Araraukar wrote:What does "entrusted life and oath" mean here? Most of my church vocabulary is in Finnish, so I don't recognize that.

Yeah, your oath and entrusted life in Christ demand: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

That’s an oath and responsibility of all Christians in their life

Linguistic differences, then, because in Finnish that's "lähetyskäsky", which translates to (keeping the nuances) "command for missionaries" or possibly "commanding the state of being missionaries on people". Basically the word used of it is not any kind of oath, it's a command. Difference being, you yourself give an oath (to do something), but someone else commands you (to do something). Before confirmation when we were doing Bible study, that was explained as something that Jesus told people to do to spread the word about there being a god and Jesus being their son and so forth, but that it's not something that every Christian is supposed to do, at least in actual everyday normal life. Like I said, secular nation, realistic expectations...

it does not say: “die quick, come up here and party mah dudes and dudettes!”

...to be fair, the Abrahamic god concept would make much more sense if it did.



Thank you Auralia, for posting it here, and especially for the links. :)

I'll get back to you (and everyone else who has posted) as soon as possible, which will likely be Thursday evening or Friday, I hope. I hurt my back again (can't always avoid moving heavy things in awkward positions) and sitting at the computer is painful enough that I won't waste much of that time on NS, sorry, but the worst pain should abate in a few days. The delay is a bummer because I am actually interested in talking about this topic rather than just going "gotcha" - if that was my only intention, I'd have just posted a Youtube link, not actually asked questions or tried to answer the counterarguments - and NSG is easier to get ahold of some Christian peeps willing to talk and link to things than RL. And yes I've tried, long ago.
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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:24 am

Araraukar wrote:...to be fair, the Abrahamic god concept would make much more sense if it did.


It really wouldn't.

If God just wanted us to quit life, why would He create life?
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Postby Evil Dictators Happyland » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:26 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Araraukar wrote:...to be fair, the Abrahamic god concept would make much more sense if it did.


It really wouldn't.

If God just wanted us to quit life, why would He create life?

If God didn't want us to, then why would He create the promise of Heaven? But that being said, your actual point seems to be valid.
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Reploid Productions wrote:Two pages in... and everybody is pretty much agreeing that "This is fucking stupid!"? Dear gods, NSG agreeing on something?! I SPOTTED A UNICORN!!

And to add my US$0.02: This is fucking stupid.

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Postby Salus Maior » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:22 pm

Evil Dictators Happyland wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
It really wouldn't.

If God just wanted us to quit life, why would He create life?

If God didn't want us to, then why would He create the promise of Heaven? But that being said, your actual point seems to be valid.


Well, He opened up Heaven as part of the New Covenant (because originally no one would go to Heaven, but to Sheol, but Christ changed that), so that people can have a chance of reuniting with Him fully.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:12 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:Yeah, your oath and entrusted life in Christ demand: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

That’s an oath and responsibility of all Christians in their life

Linguistic differences, then, because in Finnish that's "lähetyskäsky", which translates to (keeping the nuances) "command for missionaries" or possibly "commanding the state of being missionaries on people".


Everyone’s a missionary, some just have it in official capacity.

Araraukar wrote:Basically the word used of it is not any kind of oath, it's a command.


It’s a command to Christians, which means you must already have commitment to follow Christ.

I said this: “Yeah, your oath and entrusted life in Christ demand: ...” you commit yourself to follow the Christian life, which is to do as Christ commanded.

“An oath; a solemn promise, often invoking a divine witness, regarding one's future action or behaviour.”

That describes the beginning of every Christians life, a change in future action before divine witness.

Araraukar wrote:Difference being, you yourself give an oath (to do something), but someone else commands you (to do something).


I said this.

Araraukar wrote:Before confirmation when we were doing Bible study, that was explained as something that Jesus told people to do to spread the word about there being a god and Jesus being their son and so forth, but that it's not something that every Christian is supposed to do, at least in actual everyday normal life. Like I said, secular nation, realistic expectations...

Except that’s bullshit, we are commanded to be Christian before being secular, so choosing when to follow the commandments is a failure in one’s loyalty to God. We are commanded to be witnesses, a witness isn’t just someone who shouts from the street corner or knocks on doors, but participates in the life of the Church - which is reflected in their life, which reflects on those around them.

Araraukar wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:it does not say: “die quick, come up here and party mah dudes and dudettes!”

...to be fair, the Abrahamic god concept would make much more sense if it did.


Da Fuq is this?
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Salus Maior » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:04 am

So, that Amazon Synod.

Seems like a heretical mess.
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