The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Hakons]

The problem is that a person in Hell cannot choose Divine Love, because they have decided to cut themselves off eternally from God. They can’t want something they wish to eternally deny with their entire being. Even if a Noble Gas wanted to have a reaction with another Element, it can’t. It’s a Noble Gas, it can’t take more electrons, it is cutoff from every other element. Probably a bad analogy *cue Conall and Donall roasting me in the background*, but it’s the idea.

If they can't choose divine love, and there really is no hope of repentance, then why do we have the final judgement? Why do we pray for the dead? And again, where does this leave the unbaptized or those who have not heard of God, or have only heard of him through slander? Catholic dogma is clear: they go to hell too.

No, that's not clear. Surely you've been around the CDT long enough to know Catholic teaching on those not visibly in the Church?

Those in Hell don't have hope for repentance. They're, well, damned. That is the tradition of the Church through the ages, and scripture makes that quite clear as well. It is one thing to hold a theological opinion where scripture and tradition are vague, but when that opinion is contradicted both by scripture and by tradition, the theological opinion is probably wrong. We pray for the dead in purgatory, that they may pass through it swiftly and enter Heaven and be united with our Savior. There is a final judgement for both the living and dead, where the righteous live with God and the unrighteous are cast away. Those in Hell before the final judgement are definitively unrighteous. Unbaptized infants are probably saved by the grace of God. Those that have not heard of God or only here lies about Him have the possibility of being saved, if they follow the morality that God gives in our hearts.

[Tarsonis]

If they can't choose divine love, and there really is no hope of repentance, then why do we have the final judgement? Why do we pray for the dead? And again, where does this leave the unbaptized or those who have not heard of God, or have only heard of him through slander? Catholic dogma is clear: they go to hell too.

No, that's not clear. Surely you've been around the CDT long enough to know Catholic teaching on those not visibly in the Church? Those in Hell don't have hope for repentance. They're, well, damned. That is the tradition of the Church through the ages, and scripture makes that quite clear as well. It is one thing to hold a theological opinion where scripture and tradition are vague, but when that opinion is contradicted both by scripture and by tradition, the theological opinion is probably wrong. We pray for the dead in purgatory, that they may pass through it swiftly and enter Heaven and be united with our Savior. There is a final judgement for both the living and dead, where the righteous live with God and the unrighteous are cast away. Those in Hell before the final judgement are definitively unrighteous. Unbaptized infants are probably saved by the grace of God. Those that have not heard of God or only here lies about Him have the possibility of being saved, if they follow the morality that God gives in our hearts.

For the record, I time to time pray for the souls in hell.

[Hakons]

No, that's not clear. Surely you've been around the CDT long enough to know Catholic teaching on those not visibly in the Church? Those in Hell don't have hope for repentance. They're, well, damned. That is the tradition of the Church through the ages, and scripture makes that quite clear as well. It is one thing to hold a theological opinion where scripture and tradition are vague, but when that opinion is contradicted both by scripture and by tradition, the theological opinion is probably wrong. We pray for the dead in purgatory, that they may pass through it swiftly and enter Heaven and be united with our Savior. There is a final judgement for both the living and dead, where the righteous live with God and the unrighteous are cast away. Those in Hell before the final judgement are definitively unrighteous. Unbaptized infants are probably saved by the grace of God. Those that have not heard of God or only here lies about Him have the possibility of being saved, if they follow the morality that God gives in our hearts.

For the record, I time to time pray for the souls in hell.

For what?

[Tarsonis]

For the record, I time to time pray for the souls in hell.

For what?

Comfort

[Northern Davincia]

For the record, I time to time pray for the souls in hell.

For what?

I just pity them.

[Minzerland II]

For the record, I time to time pray for the souls in hell.

For what?

If I am not wrong, though your prayers may not bring them out of hell, they may mute the agony of their punishment or silence all agony. Pope St. Gregory the Great, I think, did as much for Trajan.

[Lost Memories]

For what?

Comfort

Hmm, does praying for the dead, refers just to the psysically dead, or also for the spiritually dead?

Thinking about how Sheol was a place where the only comfort was being remembered (was it by indirectly making the people down still visible to god through the living?), guess it does make sense to pray for the ones in hell too.
If Christ opened up a better place than hell, praying for all those in hell could be about making hell a slightly better place itself.

[The Grims]

For what?

If I am not wrong, though your prayers may not bring them out of hell, they may mute the agony of their punishment or silence all agony. Pope St. Gregory the Great, I think, did as much for Trajan.

Is it not more likely that prayers would increase their suffering?

[Minzerland II]

If I am not wrong, though your prayers may not bring them out of hell, they may mute the agony of their punishment or silence all agony. Pope St. Gregory the Great, I think, did as much for Trajan.

Is it not more likely that prayers would increase their suffering?

Why do think that?

[Lost Memories]

If I am not wrong, though your prayers may not bring them out of hell, they may mute the agony of their punishment or silence all agony. Pope St. Gregory the Great, I think, did as much for Trajan.

Is it not more likely that prayers would increase their suffering?

I can imagine what you're getting at, but could you explain it more why you think dead people rejecting god would suffer in getting prayers?


As an aside, it's curious how the Hebrews concepts of:
Sheol - boring place where people are forgotten, and suffer because of it
Gehenna - the burning dumpster of the wicked souls, where you suffer because, you burn
got mixed up over time, to make up the commonly known concept of christian Hell.

Or is Sheol the place for the dead before the final judgement, and Gehenna where they go after the final judgement? How were they used in hebraism, was there any order, or they existed at the same time?
Also, for the interpretation of Gehenna being related to burning trash, wouldn't people going into it be consumed into nothingness?
Sometimes Gehenna was also mentioned as a place of purification, where the bad is burned out of the person, and if something is left they are purified (otherwise, they're completely burned out of existence), which resembles the purgatory.

[The Grims]

Is it not more likely that prayers would increase their suffering?

Why do think that?

Prayers are temporary. Damnation is eternal. If prayer eases the pain for a short while the pain will be much harder to bear after the effects subside. Such tactics are even used in torture.

Also people in hell reject God presence. Prayers draw Gods attention to them. How could that light not burn?

[Lost Memories]

Why do think that?

Prayers are temporary. Damnation is eternal. If prayer eases the pain for a short while the pain will be much harder to bear after the effects subside. Such tactics are even used in torture.

That's assuming people in hell can get desensitized to it. Maybe they don't.

Also people in hell reject God presence. Prayers draw Gods attention to them. How could that light not burn?

Guessed it was something like that. It would be like the torture of forced hugs to grumpy people.
Everytime a prayer is given for who's in hell, someone in a lonely place gets an hug

[The Grims]

Prayers are temporary. Damnation is eternal. If prayer eases the pain for a short while the pain will be much harder to bear after the effects subside. Such tactics are even used in torture.

That's assuming people in hell can get desensitized to it. Maybe they don't.:

If prayers offer no reprieve they are pointless.

But to draw on your lonely old people example: imagine being in hell as being an old man living in a retirement home. All your friends are already gone, the other people there are stupid and life is incrediy boring. Your one ray of sunshine is Prayer, your granddaughter who visits once a week. She makes it bearable.

But it is not a retirement home. It is hell. You will be there forever. Prayer will die. And then noone will come tonvisit. Forever.

Would that not make the memory of prayer one of despair?

[Aeritai]

Isn't it wonderful that we are seeing faith based movies starting to return to the big screens? I mean as of 2016-2019 there have been more faith based movies being made rather it be on Pureflix, Netflix, and the big screens. Hopefully more faith based movies start coming out on the big screens of this year and next year.

[Hakons]

Isn't it wonderful that we are seeing faith based movies starting to return to the big screens? I mean as of 2016-2019 there have been more faith based movies being made rather it be on Pureflix, Netflix, and the big screens. Hopefully more faith based movies start coming out on the big screens of this year and next year.

Cinema and streaming are large parts of our culture, so it's good to have Christian media in the mix. There's certainly no shortage of saints and miracles that make for compelling stories.

[Grenartia]

lolwat. Its had plenty.

The closest I can think of was Bush jr.

Have you never heard of Ronald fucking Reagan? Or what about his VP and successor, Bush Sr?

lolwat. Its had plenty.



Then what is the purpose for Hell's existence?



Which raises an interesting point. The Bible explicitly states that God hardened Pharoah's heart. As in, God directly removed Pharoah's free will, and eliminated any chance of him repenting and not going to Hell.

Now in regards to the last point you made, there is a bit of contention with whether God hardened Pharaoh's heart or the Pharoah hardened his heart to God. I only bring this up because it's not actually certain if the translations are accurate. That said despite taking some artistic license with the story the biblical animation epic Prince of Egypt did consult several (I mean several) biblical scholars. Why am I including this film in a talk about this topic? In part because of the choice to include the line "then let my heart be hardened, no matter how much the suffering grows" during the plagues duet.

I gotta say, that is an interesting take I hadn't considered.

Which raises an interesting point. The Bible explicitly states that God hardened Pharoah's heart. As in, God directly removed Pharoah's free will, and eliminated any chance of him repenting and not going to Hell.

I think the phrase: "God hardened Pharoah's heart" is not saying that He took away his free will. But rather, because of God's actions against Pharoah, Pharoah's heart became hardened.

It would be like if I slapped you, your heart would probably become hardened (basically you get pissed) at me.

Another interesting take.

Then what is the purpose for Hell's existence?

Unbelievers (non-believers?)

Why do non-believers go to Hell?

Which raises an interesting point. The Bible explicitly states that God hardened Pharoah's heart. As in, God directly removed Pharoah's free will, and eliminated any chance of him repenting and not going to Hell.

To badly paraphrase from my OT teacher (Arch is probably gonna correct me on specifics or more), you have to keep in mind the time/culture that would have been preserved as a story, ie the ancient Egyptians. As you may recall from wherever, a part of their afterlife beliefs related to the weighing of the heart. Hardening the heart would thus in context me more analogous to adding guilt upon him, rather than forcing him to do anything. Now, the actual Plagues and moral value of them is something more related to what I think you're trying to argue.

I don't buy it.

If God won't save them even though they are repenting, then he is not a God who is merciful or loving, and I can't accept that about the Christian God. Annihilation would be much more loving.

God cannot do the logically impossible and limit his grace to only some people. These are Calvinist tier arguments about God limiting his grace to only certain people.

And if the verdict on people doesn't change at the final judgement, why have it?

And on these points, we are in complete agreement. Especially that first one.

If you can repent in the next life, than whats the point of repenting in this one?

To avoid punishment in the next life.

And also, if God's will is that they not be saved even if they repent, then you have to bite the bullet and say that God would rather the people in hell suffer eternal conscious torture rather than be saved, which, again, is just not compatible with the idea of a loving God.

You can say they won't repent, but that's very different than saying that their repentance doesn't enter into the equation.

Exactly this.

1) The point of repenting in this life is that it's better to repent in this life than the next one.

that's a pretty vague premise. Why is it better? If you ask me I'd say it's better for me to satisfy all my humanly indulgences while I got the body to do it, and then ask for repentance when I no longer do, since thats the system you're availing here. I exploit loopholes just like everyone else.

One would think an omnipotent, omniscient being would be capable of judging whether or not somebody's repentance is sincere or not.

2) Selling earthly inheritance that can only be owned by one person is very different than subjecting someone to eternal conscious torture while they beg for mercy.

God couldn't find another place for Esau? He's not limited to just Israel he has the whole world at his disposal? Why not Jordan or Syria? Because that's not what it's about The Bible says God hated Esau and loved Jacob, emphasizing the chasm here. Esau sold his inheritance for something trivial. He did not value it. And no matter how many times he tried to get it back he could never reclaim the line of Abraham.

Now Esau did have some comfort to his life, he wasn't completely miserable all the time. So it could be argued that those who repent in hell will receive some comfort, but they will never enter the gates of heaven.

"Well, they don't get to repent and go to Heaven, but at least every now and then the fire is a little less hot than normal."

If that's how you need to rationalize being ok with people being condemned to an eternity of suffering with no way out.

3) There isn't a place bereft of God's grace, because, as I said, if there is, then God's grace isn't all-present and filling all things.

Then perhaps it is there and they cannot perceive it. Or perhaps you're clinging to hard to words like Omnipresent Omnipotence and taking them to an extreme.

4) If he is not allowing people the ability to see the error of their ways, then yes, he is actually picking and choosing, even if the people made a decision beforehand.

He gave them the ability to see error of their ways. He sent Christ. They refused. He did not choose, they did.

If that were enough to make people see 'the error of their ways', then there would no longer be any atheists, or anyone of any other religion.

Tarsonis is arguing that even if those in hell wanted divine love, God wouldn't give it to them.

The problem is that a person in Hell cannot choose Divine Love, because they have decided to cut themselves off eternally from God. They can’t want something they wish to eternally deny with their entire being.

And what if they decide to stop denying?

Even if a Noble Gas wanted to have a reaction with another Element, it can’t. It’s a Noble Gas, it can’t take more electrons, it is cutoff from every other element. Probably a bad analogy *cue Conall and Donall roasting me in the background*, but it’s the idea.

It is a bad analogy.

For what?

I just pity them.

How Christ-like of you.

Isn't it wonderful that we are seeing faith based movies starting to return to the big screens? I mean as of 2016-2019 there have been more faith based movies being made rather it be on Pureflix, Netflix, and the big screens. Hopefully more faith based movies start coming out on the big screens of this year and next year.

"Pure"flix is a flaming dumpster fire that only puts out conservative religious propaganda.

My opinion on faith-based movies is only marginally better than my opinion on televangelists, and for the exact same reasons.

[Bienenhalde]

Sigh...here we go again.

True or false: Hell is punishment for sin.

True

[The Grims]

For me, all the CDAers are (Balkenende, Lubbers, van Agt)

What passes for "conservative Christian" in the Netherlands? Do they oppose abortion being legal, for example? Do they promote a religious programme in government?

That varies. The Dutch do have the SGP which believes women should be subservient to men, listening to metal music makes you a killer and that the earth is 6000 years old.

[Diopolis]

The closest I can think of was Bush jr.

Have you never heard of Ronald fucking Reagan? Or what about his VP and successor, Bush Sr?

By the standards of his Christian supporters, he would not be considered a Christian. Nevertheless his conservatism is praiseworthy in it's moral concern, but he 1)failed to recognize the roots of the problem and 2) was overly cautious.
I'm not familiar with HW doing much of anything with a conservative Christian agenda.

[Northern Davincia]

How Christ-like of you.

There is nothing else I can do for the damned. Enlighten me with scripture if you feel otherwise.

If that were enough to make people see 'the error of their ways', then there would no longer be any atheists, or anyone of any other religion.

Free will still exists. Humans can be quite troublesome in rejecting the truth.

[Kowani]

How Christ-like of you.

There is nothing else I can do for the damned. Enlighten me with scripture if you feel otherwise.

If that were enough to make people see 'the error of their ways', then there would no longer be any atheists, or anyone of any other religion.

Free will still exists. Humans can be quite troublesome in rejecting the truth.

“You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.”

[A m e n r i a]

It just occurred to me how many African Christians live in the city I live in. So tell me, what are the chances of an African pope in the future?

[Aeritai]

It just occurred to me how many African Christians live in the city I live in. So tell me, what are the chances of an African pope in the future?

Like a Vatican Pope position? It depends to my knowledge you must be born in the Vatican to become Pope and I'm not sure if any African was born in Vatican. But I am sure that it is possible for a African to become Pope.

[Minachia]

It just occurred to me how many African Christians live in the city I live in. So tell me, what are the chances of an African pope in the future?

Well, there kind of already is.

[A m e n r i a]

It just occurred to me how many African Christians live in the city I live in. So tell me, what are the chances of an African pope in the future?

Like a Vatican Pope position? It depends to my knowledge you must be born in the Vatican to become Pope and I'm not sure if any African was born in Vatican. But I am sure that it is possible for a African to become Pope.

Pope Francis was born in Argentina tho.

It just occurred to me how many African Christians live in the city I live in. So tell me, what are the chances of an African pope in the future?

Well, there kind of already is.

I was talking more like the Pope in the Vatican.