The Christian Discussion Thread X: Originally there were 15

[Aeritai]

So what's your opinion on some Christians that use fear to get people to believe in our Lord?

Like for example when the Super Blood Moon happen last month some Chrisitans, but not all started preaching about the end times and scaring people.

And it is in my personal opinion that we shouldn't use fear to get people into our faith rather we should preach more about God's love for everyone and to show everybody he is a good Father.

We're supposed to fear and love God.
Sure, we should preach about His love, since that's what'll get people to accept His word, but they also should know that they should fear the Lord.

I agree with you since God is our Father and if we behave badly we'll get punished.

But we shouldn't go overborad with the whole fear God thing.

[Aeritai]

Just a question to my fellow Christians have you had any pets that died? If so do you believe your pets are waiting for you at the gates of Heaven?

I like to believe the dogs that I lost are waiting for me to come up there and play with them once again.

I've had some pets that died, and I am completely sure all of them are in heaven. They didn't sin, after all, and I'm sure God loves animals as much as people.

Amen to that I can't wait to play with my dogs once again in the clouds of Heaven.

[Tarsonis]

We're supposed to fear and love God.
Sure, we should preach about His love, since that's what'll get people to accept His word, but they also should know that they should fear the Lord.

I agree with you since God is our Father and if we behave badly we'll get punished.

But we shouldn't go overborad with the whole fear God thing.

I think both of you are working with a bit of a misconception here. “Fear” in the Greek has more than one meaning. “Phoboe” can mean the fight or flight type of afraid (phobia), but it also means deep reverance and obedience, acknowledging one’s power and authority. When we say a “God Fearing Man” we’re referring to the latter not the former.

We have no reason to be afraid of God, for he loves us and died for us, but we should defer to God’s authority in our obedience.

[Diopolis]

This website might help with finding a nearby TLM. Even the churches that only do a TLM once a month will probably have a relatively reverent Novus Ordo and a decent RCIA / instruction programme.

None nearby. Also I'd rather have a reverent novus ordo than a TLM because I want to be able to understand the mass.

Generally a diocesan parish which offers a TLM will have a fairly reverent novus ordo. You might also consider posting to a Catholic forum to see if anyone familiar with your area knows of a relatively reverent novus ordo.
https://www.latinmassschedule.com/index ... e&Itemid=2
List of TLMs in Tennessee. It's quite possible that the folks at some of the diocesan ones will know of a reverent NO as well.

[Stonok]

What do the Catholic and Orthodox churches believe in regards to predestination? If you had to align your church with its closest Protestant equivalent, would you say the most agreeable stance is Calvinism or Arminianism (Or another soteriology based on choice)?

[United Muscovite Nations]

What do the Catholic and Orthodox churches believe in regards to predestination? If you had to align your church with its closest Protestant equivalent, would you say the most agreeable stance is Calvinism or Arminianism?

No, not by a longshot. Both are very much opposed to predestination. Probably the most similar would be Lutheranism or Anglicanism.

[Lord Dominator]

Probably because a selfless, self sacrificial moral leader is something Americans want and haven't gotten.

R u d e

[Kowani]

What do the Catholic and Orthodox churches believe in regards to predestination? If you had to align your church with its closest Protestant equivalent, would you say the most agreeable stance is Calvinism or Arminianism (Or another soteriology based on choice)?

Can I just say that predestination is the absolute worst of all Christian ideas? As in, I prefer Catholicism, because at least the theology isn’t inherently useless.

[Salus Maior]

Probably because a selfless, self sacrificial moral leader is something Americans want and haven't gotten.

R u d e

But true.

[Salus Maior]

What do the Catholic and Orthodox churches believe in regards to predestination? If you had to align your church with its closest Protestant equivalent, would you say the most agreeable stance is Calvinism or Arminianism?

No, not by a longshot. Both are very much opposed to predestination. Probably the most similar would be Lutheranism or Anglicanism.

As I understand it, there are schools of thought in Catholicism that lean towards predestination.

[Czechanada]

Communion is only two letters different.

Does that help?

Well, Communion is the true Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, given to us for Forgiveness, Life, and Salvation, while Communism is a godless ideology that resulted in death and chaos the world over, so...
no?

Is it not hypocritical to condemn Stalinism for the tragic genocide and oppression of millions while ignoring Christianity's prominent role in centuries of colonialism (and a few decades of fascism for that matter) which invented the practice of mass systematic violence that resulted in the deaths and oppression of millions?

[Nordengrund]

No, not by a longshot. Both are very much opposed to predestination. Probably the most similar would be Lutheranism or Anglicanism.

As I understand it, there are schools of thought in Catholicism that lean towards predestination.

Isn’t Jansenism one of them?

[Mesadora]

I was raised Catholic, but I'm having a ton of doubts about the faith. I don't believe I can consider myself Catholic anymore.

What right does the papacy have to claim to be God's representation on Earth, and Jesus's successor? It seems that when Jesus tells Peter to build His Church, he never mentions that a sole papal figure should be created.

Is the Vatican's opulence not antithetical to the Christian values of living simply and modestly? I can see perhaps sculptors may wish to dedicate works of love towards God, but commissioning such artworks? That money could instead go to charity.

Perhaps this is in the past, but it seems history is filled with instances of the Roman Catholic Church abusing its then-believed authority, much of which was subject to scrutiny during the schisms 500 years ago.

It seems to me that telling believers what the bible says instead of allowing them to interpret the words for themselves is unnatural. If the meaning behind the words was just, the reader would find that themselves, having been guided down the right path by God. The Church ought not to translate for them.

I can't say I'm the most faithful person, but religion has been on my mind a lot recently.

[Luminesa]

I was raised Catholic, but I'm having a ton of doubts about the faith. I don't believe I can consider myself Catholic anymore.

What right does the papacy have to claim to be God's representation on Earth, and Jesus's successor? It seems that when Jesus tells Peter to build His Church, he never mentions that a sole papal figure should be created.

Is the Vatican's opulence not antithetical to the Christian values of living simply and modestly? I can see perhaps sculptors may wish to dedicate works of love towards God, but commissioning such artworks? That money could instead go to charity.

Perhaps this is in the past, but it seems history is filled with instances of the Roman Catholic Church abusing its then-believed authority, much of which was subject to scrutiny during the schisms 500 years ago.

It seems to me that telling believers what the bible says instead of allowing them to interpret the words for themselves is unnatural. If the meaning behind the words was just, the reader would find that themselves, having been guided down the right path by God. The Church ought not to translate for them.

I can't say I'm the most faithful person, but religion has been on my mind a lot recently.

Well having questions doesn’t make you a bad believer. I can’t give a good answer right now, but if you would like to TG me, I can try to answer some of your questions in the afternoon.

[Tarsonis]

I was raised Catholic, but I'm having a ton of doubts about the faith. I don't believe I can consider myself Catholic anymore.

What right does the papacy have to claim to be God's representation on Earth, and Jesus's successor? It seems that when Jesus tells Peter to build His Church, he never mentions that a sole papal figure should be created.

Well firstly there is a bit of a misconception here on your part, the Pope is not truly God’s representation on Earth nor is he Jesus’s successor. He’s the caretaker of the Church, the “Steward” of Christ. And vary rarely does the Pope ever claim to speak “ex cathedra” to speak with the weight of the Holy Spirit. So rarely it’s only happened twice, and only then to settle doctrinal disputes that threatened to grow into schism. The Pope is ultimately just another bishop, but he’s the bishop with the highest seniority over all Bishops. Same way St. Peter was chief among apostles. If you’re looking for Scripture, I’d say In addition to Matt 16, look at John 21.

Is the Vatican's opulence not antithetical to the Christian values of living simply and modestly? I can see perhaps sculptors may wish to dedicate works of love towards God, but commissioning such artworks? That money could instead go to charity.

Well firstly here I think you’re overlooking that the Church is the largest charitable organization on earth. They’re not wallowing in greed.

Secondly, Why would God’s church not commission such works? I often find this view short sighted in my own opinion. Yes the money could simply be donated to charity, and the poor may be satiated for a day. Or the Church could commision its great cathedrals, the public put to work building these great things, the poor receive wages for their labor, and as a result we have a glorious work to glorify God with. It’s this sort of mistaken view that we see today with NASA or companies that if a group spends X dollars on anything that money disappears and is wasted . Not so, that money is transferred to workers, suppliers, etc. it goes into the community it doesn’t disappear.

Perhaps this is in the past, but it seems history is filled with instances of the Roman Catholic Church abusing its then-believed authority, much of which was subject to scrutiny during the schisms 500 years ago.

You’re not wrong, in fact I think your assessment is a little tame, but remember the church is bigger than anyone, any Pope or any Ten Popes. The Church is made up of men and women, and even holy men and women, guided by the Holy Spirit, can still fail. But we have faith in the Church because Christ founded its and its bigger than them.

It seems to me that telling believers what the bible says instead of allowing them to interpret the words for themselves is unnatural. If the meaning behind the words was just, the reader would find that themselves, having been guided down the right path by God. The Church ought not to translate for them.

“29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” Acts 8:29-31.

The Church is established by God for exactly this reason. The term “Pastor” literally means shepherd, one who cares for and leads the flock. The Church not Scripture was tasked with teaching and evangelizing. Remember Scripture was itself canonized by the Chuch as part of its traditions. It didn’t fall out of they sky and it doesn’t exist in vacuum. Humans are subject to all manner of confirmation biases that affect the way they interpret scripture, case in point there are thousands of denominations and churches that all disagree on the meaning of scripture. The purpose of the Church, with its authority and its traditions, is to preserve orthodoxy, true doctrine. Without the Church, the faithful would be susceptible to all manner of heresy.

I can't say I'm the most faithful person, but religion has been on my mind a lot recently.

This will probably make me the biggest hypocrite in the world, but the question now is with the Holy Spirit tugging on your soul, do you have the constitution to listen?

[Tarsonis]

No, not by a longshot. Both are very much opposed to predestination. Probably the most similar would be Lutheranism or Anglicanism.

As I understand it, there are schools of thought in Catholicism that lean towards predestination.

We call it foreshadowing. While not everything is predestined in the Calvinist sense, there are some things that were certain, like the incarnation, his betrayal, crucifixcion etc. Take St. Mary, she said yes but was immaculately conceived before she said yes? Why? Because St. Mary was always going to say yes. God didn’t make her say yes, she was picked because God knew she would say yes. God didn’t predestine her to say yes, but foreknew she would say yes and then prefigured her to be the Mother of God imparting on her the salvific Grace of Christ in expectation of her role.

[Catholic Britannia]

Hopefully, this can help you some.

I was raised Catholic, but I'm having a ton of doubts about the faith. I don't believe I can consider myself Catholic anymore.

There is nothing wrong with questioning the Church. This doesn't keep you from being a Catholic. It means you are capable of critical thought. Questioning the Church is what has led to reform. The Church consists of men and men are flawed.

What right does the papacy have to claim to be God's representation on Earth, and Jesus's successor? It seems that when Jesus tells Peter to build His Church, he never mentions that a sole papal figure should be created.

The primacy of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is not necessarily scriptural, but rather comes from apostolic tradition. He is not the successor of Christ, but the Vicar of Christ, a representative of Christ on Earth.

Is the Vatican's opulence not antithetical to the Christian values of living simply and modestly? I can see perhaps sculptors may wish to dedicate works of love towards God, but commissioning such artworks? That money could instead go to charity.

Much of the opulence has calmed down over the years. Many newer churches are much more humble than the grand old Cathedrals of Europe. As far as commissioning the art, the artist is providing a service to an organisation and deserves compensation. The Church does donate A LOT of money to charity. The money used in religious art is a way to glorify God and, as a side-effect, may entice some people to investigate our faith further.

Perhaps this is in the past, but it seems history is filled with instances of the Roman Catholic Church abusing its then-believed authority, much of which was subject to scrutiny during the schisms 500 years ago.

The Church consists of men. Men are flawed. We, as a whole, are the Body of Christ. Sometimes, bodies have sickness that needs to be healed. As Christ healed the sick in bodies, we pray that he heals the sickness in our Body. Mistakes are made, but we strive for holiness.

It seems to me that telling believers what the bible says instead of allowing them to interpret the words for themselves is unnatural. If the meaning behind the words was just, the reader would find that themselves, having been guided down the right path by God. The Church ought not to translate for them.

You are allowed to read the Bible and come to conclusions. There is an old Benedictine tradition called Lectio Divina. Lectio Divina is not just reading the Scripture as one would any other text, but as the living Word of God. First, a passage is read. Next, it is meditated on. Then, the reader prays. It ends with contemplation, in which the Holy Spirit may guide you to the proper conclusions.

The Church recommends asking questions to your spiritual adviser, typically a pastor, to provide some guidance. Priests go through a lot of training and education to help you with matters of faith. They may have stumbled upon something you haven't or may be able to provide proper context for certain readings.

I can't say I'm the most faithful person, but religion has been on my mind a lot recently.

This may be the Holy Spirit prompting you to look further into your faith and closer to Him. There is a long philosophical history in the Church. Augustine, Aquinas (my confirmation saint), Albert the Great, and Anselm are great at answering a lot of the logical questions. Catherine of Siena, Teresa of Ávila, John of the Cross, and Gregory Palamas provide a lot of insight into the mystical side of Christianity.

May the peace of the Lord be with you always.

[Catholic Britannia]

Tarsonis, great minds think alike.

[Stonok]

As I understand it, there are schools of thought in Catholicism that lean towards predestination.

We call it foreshadowing. While not everything is predestined in the Calvinist sense, there are some things that were certain, like the incarnation, his betrayal, crucifixcion etc. Take St. Mary, she said yes but was immaculately conceived before she said yes? Why? Because St. Mary was always going to say yes. God didn’t make her say yes, she was picked because God knew she would say yes. God didn’t predestine her to say yes, but foreknew she would say yes and then prefigured her to be the Mother of God imparting on her the salvific Grace of Christ in expectation of her role.

So you would agree with the Arminians in that God "predestines" those who he foresees will have faith.

[Tarsonis]

We call it foreshadowing. While not everything is predestined in the Calvinist sense, there are some things that were certain, like the incarnation, his betrayal, crucifixcion etc. Take St. Mary, she said yes but was immaculately conceived before she said yes? Why? Because St. Mary was always going to say yes. God didn’t make her say yes, she was picked because God knew she would say yes. God didn’t predestine her to say yes, but foreknew she would say yes and then prefigured her to be the Mother of God imparting on her the salvific Grace of Christ in expectation of her role.

So you would agree with the Arminians in that God "predestines" those who he foresees will have faith.

Honestly I don’t know enough about Arminianism to make a comment either way.

[Stonok]

So you would agree with the Arminians in that God "predestines" those who he foresees will have faith.

Honestly I don’t know enough about Arminianism to make a comment either way.

It's basically the antithesis to Calvinism in Protestant Soteriology, from what I understand. They teach conditional election, that God gives (pretty much) everyone the call to accept Christ through the Holy Spirit, but that their acceptance of it is determined by conditions, namely free choice. The ones who accept are "the elect". They equate predestination with God's foreknowledge of those who will accept. I'm leaning in this direction currently, but am struggling with the fact that it doesn't seem to fit into the orthodox opinions of Protestantism, so I'm checking to see if it has grounds in the High Church, thus why I ask.

[Aeritai]

I agree with you since God is our Father and if we behave badly we'll get punished.

But we shouldn't go overborad with the whole fear God thing.

I think both of you are working with a bit of a misconception here. “Fear” in the Greek has more than one meaning. “Phoboe” can mean the fight or flight type of afraid (phobia), but it also means deep reverance and obedience, acknowledging one’s power and authority. When we say a “God Fearing Man” we’re referring to the latter not the former.

We have no reason to be afraid of God, for he loves us and died for us, but we should defer to God’s authority in our obedience.

Ah, thank you for the insight friend and I agree with the statement.

My only question is why do some of our Chrisitan brothers and sisters use the "end of the world" scare tatic against non-believers? I understand its important to look for the signs that John has told us about in the Bible. But we can't predict when Jesus is returning after a event like the Super Blood Moon last month.

[Christian Confederation]

I think both of you are working with a bit of a misconception here. “Fear” in the Greek has more than one meaning. “Phoboe” can mean the fight or flight type of afraid (phobia), but it also means deep reverance and obedience, acknowledging one’s power and authority. When we say a “God Fearing Man” we’re referring to the latter not the former.

We have no reason to be afraid of God, for he loves us and died for us, but we should defer to God’s authority in our obedience.

Ah, thank you for the insight friend and I agree with the statement.

My only question is why do some of our Chrisitan brothers and sisters use the "end of the world" scare tatic against non-believers? I understand its important to look for the signs that John has told us about in the Bible. But we can't predict when Jesus is returning after a event like the Super Blood Moon last month.

I think they do it because more and more of the signs from revilations and other books have already happened. Last I heard 6 of the 7 horns have already sounded.

[Aeritai]

Ah, thank you for the insight friend and I agree with the statement.

My only question is why do some of our Chrisitan brothers and sisters use the "end of the world" scare tatic against non-believers? I understand its important to look for the signs that John has told us about in the Bible. But we can't predict when Jesus is returning after a event like the Super Blood Moon last month.

I think they do it because more and more of the signs from revilations and other books have already happened. Last I heard 6 of the 7 horns have already sounded.

That is good news then I only hope we saved enough people.

[Tarsonis]

I think they do it because more and more of the signs from revilations and other books have already happened. Last I heard 6 of the 7 horns have already sounded.

That is good news then I only hope we saved enough people.

Eh don’t get too deep into that. Lots of people try to claim prophecy of Revelation as being fulfilled and it’s always vague and wanky. Prophecy by its very nature is notorious for being problematic and open to interpretation and speculation a lot of the time.

Revelation is itself coded and figurative language deliberately mean to be difficult to interpret, except by the early Christians. Sadly much of what they would have known about it has been lost to time and our interpretations of it are incomplete.