UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

[Salandriagado]

Student Unions should absolutely have the right to decide who gets Student-Union funding.

And who funds the student union?
If the funding comes exclusively from voluntary member contributions, okay.
But if it comes from other sources it is a horrible way to distribute funds.

You realise that you're arguing against the statement "private organisations should be able to choose how to spend their own money", right?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Proofread your shit

[Vassenor]

Proofread your shit

A proofreader might have pointed out it was full of lies though.

[Novus America]

Nobody forced Corbyn to call Hezbollah and Hamas friends, to show up a ceremony celebrating murder if Jews though. Obviously the anti Corbyn types have taken those things and run with them, but this is politics. Do something stupid and the other side will obviously use it to bludgeon you, but you still did it.

Sure at this point there is no way for him to undo the damage, but it was largely self inflicted.

Corbyn is simply damaged goods.
His anti Semitic image problem cannot be fully repaired, but Corbyn can be replaced with someone not having done those things.

True to an extent, but it's a touch more complicated than that. Although I disagree with his stance on Israel, there's a bit more grey here than is generally acknowledged. His earlier comments are in the capacity of a fairly obscure backbencher, talking positively about hosts or fellow speakers at events whose context was generally the pursuit of a state for the Palestinians. If you're campaigning in that context it's impossible to avoid ever sharing a stage with people who are liable to say nasty things about Jews, because many Palestinians are going to be rather salty about that whole loss of clay/sand/whatever.

A proclamation of friendship in that capacity is subtly different to a wholesale endorsement of their entire program, terrorism included, declaring them besties and pinky-swearing to use any future leadership position to provide them with material and political aid.

There is also the problem that the current mass movement was largely inspired by Corbyn's ascension to leader and that he enjoys some personal loyalty. It's not a case of just replacing him and problem solved - kick him out and many people leave with him. There's no easy solution, and the current approach of constantly pretending to be dealing with the undealable might still be better than a wholesale split.

Maybe because I never understood his cult of personality.
What makes him so great in their eyes?
Most his support comes from remainer millennials, but he is a washed up euroskeptic tankie boomer.

Plus his idiotic shit is not only from his time on the back bench, look at his response to the the Salisbury attack. He just cannot drop the tankie shit.

I do not believe he is a Putin bot, or even a anti Semitist per se, but his love of apologizing for, it not outright cavorting with the worst regimes and groups as long as they hate NATO and the west is entirely his decision, and certainly a result of a deep seated ideology he holds.

[Ifreann]

Proofread your shit

The Grauniad have finally passed on the curse!

[Dumb Ideologies]

True to an extent, but it's a touch more complicated than that. Although I disagree with his stance on Israel, there's a bit more grey here than is generally acknowledged. His earlier comments are in the capacity of a fairly obscure backbencher, talking positively about hosts or fellow speakers at events whose context was generally the pursuit of a state for the Palestinians. If you're campaigning in that context it's impossible to avoid ever sharing a stage with people who are liable to say nasty things about Jews, because many Palestinians are going to be rather salty about that whole loss of clay/sand/whatever.

A proclamation of friendship in that capacity is subtly different to a wholesale endorsement of their entire program, terrorism included, declaring them besties and pinky-swearing to use any future leadership position to provide them with material and political aid.

There is also the problem that the current mass movement was largely inspired by Corbyn's ascension to leader and that he enjoys some personal loyalty. It's not a case of just replacing him and problem solved - kick him out and many people leave with him. There's no easy solution, and the current approach of constantly pretending to be dealing with the undealable might still be better than a wholesale split.

Maybe because I never understood his cult of personality.
What makes him so great in their eyes?
Most his support comes from remainer millennials, but he is a washed up euroskeptic tankie boomer.

Plus his idiotic shit is not only from his time on the back bench, look at his response to the the Salisbury attack. He just cannot drop the tankie shit.

I do not believe he is a Putin bot, or even a anti Semitist per we, but his love of apologizing for, it not outright cavorting with the worst regimes and groups as long as they hate NATO and the west is entirely his decision, and certainly a result of a deep seated ideology he holds.

His appeal mostly comes from his central role in a revival of a socialist spirit that had been dead in the party for a couple of decades and transforming Labour back into a real alternative.

Unfortunately he does come with ties to both the old and new left's more kooky ideas. But if you happen to believe that a period of socialistic-leaning governance is required to restore the social balance broken by Thatcher and Sons, he'll have your loyalty as your best hope for decades in trying to get it, wonky foreign policy and dubious friends be damned.

[Novus America]

And who funds the student union?
If the funding comes exclusively from voluntary member contributions, okay.
But if it comes from other sources it is a horrible way to distribute funds.

You realise that you're arguing against the statement "private organisations should be able to choose how to spend their own money", right?

Not necessarily. Are student unions entirely self funded?
Are contributions entirely voluntary? Are they given no special benefits or recognition?
Are the not monopolies and you can create an alternative one?
In that case they should be able to choose.

But if not there is likely an issue.

[Vassenor]

True to an extent, but it's a touch more complicated than that. Although I disagree with his stance on Israel, there's a bit more grey here than is generally acknowledged. His earlier comments are in the capacity of a fairly obscure backbencher, talking positively about hosts or fellow speakers at events whose context was generally the pursuit of a state for the Palestinians. If you're campaigning in that context it's impossible to avoid ever sharing a stage with people who are liable to say nasty things about Jews, because many Palestinians are going to be rather salty about that whole loss of clay/sand/whatever.

A proclamation of friendship in that capacity is subtly different to a wholesale endorsement of their entire program, terrorism included, declaring them besties and pinky-swearing to use any future leadership position to provide them with material and political aid.

There is also the problem that the current mass movement was largely inspired by Corbyn's ascension to leader and that he enjoys some personal loyalty. It's not a case of just replacing him and problem solved - kick him out and many people leave with him. There's no easy solution, and the current approach of constantly pretending to be dealing with the undealable might still be better than a wholesale split.

Maybe because I never understood his cult of personality.
What makes him so great in their eyes?
Most his support comes from remainer millennials, but he is a washed up euroskeptic tankie boomer.

Plus his idiotic shit is not only from his time on the back bench, look at his response to the the Salisbury attack. He just cannot drop the tankie shit.

I do not believe he is a Putin bot, or even a anti Semitist per se, but his love of apologizing for, it not outright cavorting with the worst regimes and groups as long as they hate NATO and the west is entirely his decision, and certainly a result of a deep seated ideology he holds.

Remember, "this is bad but let's not rush in until we know who to actually blame" and "we need to do things that will actually hurt the Putin regime" is tankie shit.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Maybe because I never understood his cult of personality.
What makes him so great in their eyes?
Most his support comes from remainer millennials, but he is a washed up euroskeptic tankie boomer.

Plus his idiotic shit is not only from his time on the back bench, look at his response to the the Salisbury attack. He just cannot drop the tankie shit.

I do not believe he is a Putin bot, or even a anti Semitist per we, but his love of apologizing for, it not outright cavorting with the worst regimes and groups as long as they hate NATO and the west is entirely his decision, and certainly a result of a deep seated ideology he holds.

His appeal mostly comes from his central role in a revival of a socialist spirit that had been dead in the party for a couple of decades and transforming Labour back into a real alternative.

Unfortunately he does come with ties to both the old and new left's more kooky ideas. And if you happen to believe that a period of socialistic-leaning governance is required to restore the social balance broken by Thatcher and Sons, he'll have your loyalty as your best hope for decades in trying to get it, wonky foreign policy and dubious friends be damned.

In fact his support for Russia and Palestine is something that I like about him.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Maybe because I never understood his cult of personality.
What makes him so great in their eyes?
Most his support comes from remainer millennials, but he is a washed up euroskeptic tankie boomer.

Plus his idiotic shit is not only from his time on the back bench, look at his response to the the Salisbury attack. He just cannot drop the tankie shit.

I do not believe he is a Putin bot, or even a anti Semitist per se, but his love of apologizing for, it not outright cavorting with the worst regimes and groups as long as they hate NATO and the west is entirely his decision, and certainly a result of a deep seated ideology he holds.

Remember, "this is bad but let's not rush in until we know who to actually blame" and "we need to do things that will actually hurt the Putin regime" is tankie shit.

Why does the Putin regime need to be hurt? Do Russians want him gone, never knew.

[Ifreann]

Remember, "this is bad but let's not rush in until we know who to actually blame" and "we need to do things that will actually hurt the Putin regime" is tankie shit.

Why does the Putin regime need to be hurt? Do Russians want him gone, never knew.

There was that thing with the chemical weapons. People got murdered. Pretty big deal, surprised you didn't hear about it.

[Novus America]

Maybe because I never understood his cult of personality.
What makes him so great in their eyes?
Most his support comes from remainer millennials, but he is a washed up euroskeptic tankie boomer.

Plus his idiotic shit is not only from his time on the back bench, look at his response to the the Salisbury attack. He just cannot drop the tankie shit.

I do not believe he is a Putin bot, or even a anti Semitist per se, but his love of apologizing for, it not outright cavorting with the worst regimes and groups as long as they hate NATO and the west is entirely his decision, and certainly a result of a deep seated ideology he holds.

Remember, "this is bad but let's not rush in until we know who to actually blame" and "we need to do things that will actually hurt the Putin regime" is tankie shit.

Except it was already quite clear.
And what would he actually do to hurt the Putin regime?
Weakening NATO and dropping sanctions? Oh yes, I am sure Corbyn has Putin shaking in his boots...
I am willing to bet I know exactly who Putin wants as PM.
Oh and I already win.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/expo ... -zffv8652x

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Why does the Putin regime need to be hurt? Do Russians want him gone, never knew.

There was that thing with the chemical weapons. People got murdered. Pretty big deal, surprised you didn't hear about it.

Well, technically the person who died did so because she sprayed the bottle on herself, I believe.

So it was manslaughter, not murder.

[Novus America]

Remember, "this is bad but let's not rush in until we know who to actually blame" and "we need to do things that will actually hurt the Putin regime" is tankie shit.

Why does the Putin regime need to be hurt? Do Russians want him gone, never knew.

I mean besides attacking the UK with a chemical weapon?

[Alvecia]

There was that thing with the chemical weapons. People got murdered. Pretty big deal, surprised you didn't hear about it.

Well, technically the person who died did so because she sprayed the bottle on herself, I believe.

So it was manslaughter, not murder.

Manslaughter is without malice aforethought, bar diminished responsibility and the like.

[Vassenor]

Also looks like someone decided to compile a list of the totally Anti-Semitic things JC has done, honest.

1. In October 1936, Jeremy Corbyn’s mother participated in the battle of Cable Street in defence of British Jews after British fascists had staged an assault on the area. Corbyn was raised in a household passionately opposed to antisemitism in all its forms.

2. In 23rd April 1977, Corbyn organised a counter-demonstration to protect Wood Green from a neo-nazi march through the district. The area had a significant Jewish population.

3. On 7 November 1990, Corbyn signed a motion condemning the rise of antisemitism in the UK

4. In 2002 Jeremy Corbyn led a clean-up and vigil at Finsbury Park Synagogue which had been vandalised in an anti-Semitic attack

5. On 30 April 2002, Corbyn tabled a motion in the House of Commons condemning an anti-Semitic attack on a London Synagogue

6. On 26 November 2003, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning terrorist attacks on two synagogues

7. In February 2009, Jeremy Corbyn signed a parliamentary motion condemning a fascist for establishing a website to host antisemitic materials

8. On 24th March 2009, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising British Jews who resisted the Holocaust by risking their lives to save potential victims

9. Nine years ago, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising “Jewish News”for its pioneering investigation into the spread of Antisemitism on Facebook

10. On 9 February 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion calling for an investigation into Facebook and its failure to prevent the spread of antisemitic materials on its site.

11. On 27 October 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising the late Israeli Prime Minister for pursuing a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine question.

12. On 13 June 2012, Corbyn sponsored and signed a motion condemning the BBC for cutting a Jewish Community television programme from its schedule.

13. 1 October 2013, Corbyn appeared on the BBC to defend Ralph Miliband against vile antisemitic attacks by the UK press.

14. Five years ago Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning antisemitism in sport.

15. On 1 March 2013, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning and expressing concern at growing levels of antisemitism in European football.

16. On 9 January 2014, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising Holocaust education programmes that had taken 20,000 British students to Auschwitz.

17. On 22 June 2015, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion expressing concern at the neo-nazi march being planned for an area of London with a significant Jewish population.

18. On 9 October 2016, Corbyn, close to tears, commemorated the 1936 Battle of Cable Street and recalled the role his mother played in defending London’s Jewish community.

19. On 3 December 2016, Corbyn made a visit to Terezin Concentration Camp when Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis. It was Jeremy’s third visit to such a camp, all of which were largely unreported in the most read UK papers.

20. Last year, a widely-endorsed 2018 academic report found ninety-five serious reporting failures in the reporting of the Labour Antisemitism story with the worst offenders The Sun, the Mail & the BBC.

21. On 28 February 2016, five months after becoming leader, Jeremy Corbyn appointed Baroness Royall to investigate antisemitism at Oxford University Labour Club.

22. On 27 April 2016 Corbyn suspended an MP pending an investigation into antisemitism.

23. A day later, Corbyn suspended the three times Mayor of London after complaints of antisemitic comments. Party.

24. On 29 April 2016, Corbyn launched an inquiry into the prevalence of antisemitism in the Labour Party. In spite of later changes in how the inquiry was reported, it was initially praised by Jewish community organisations.

25. In Corbyn’s first seven months as leader of the Labour Party, just ten complaints were received about antisemitism. 90% of those were suspended from the Labour Party within 24 hours.

26. In September 2017, Corbyn backed a motion at Labour’s annual conference introducing a new set of rules regarding antisemitism.

27. In the six months that followed the introduction of the new code of conduct, to March 2018, 94% of the fifty-four people accused of antisemitism remained suspended or barred from Labour Party membership. Three of the fifty-four were exonerated.

28. When Jennie Formby became general secretary of the party last year, she appointed a highly-qualified in-house Counsel, as recommended in the Chakrabarti Report.

29. In 2018, Labour almost doubled the size of its staff team handling investigations and dispute processes.

30. Last year, to speed up the handling of antisemitism cases, smaller panels of 3-5 NEC members were established to enable cases to be heard more quickly.

31. Since 2018, every complaint made about antisemitism is allocated its own independent specialist barrister to ensure due process is followed.

32. The entire backlog of cases outstanding upon Jennie Formby becoming General Secretary of the Labour Party was cleared within 6 months of Jennie taking up her post.

33. Since September 2018, Labour has doubled the size of its National Constitutional Committee (NCC) – its senior disciplinary panel – from 11 to 25 members to enable it to process cases more quickly.

34. Under Formby and Labour’s left-run NEC, NCC arranged elections at short notice to ensure the NCC reached its new full capacity without delay.

35. Since later 2018, the NCC routinely convenes a greater number of hearing panels to allow cases to be heard and finalised without delay.

36. In 2018, the NEC established a ‘Procedures Working Group’ to lead reforms in the way disciplinary cases are handled.

37. The NEC adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism and all eleven examples of antisemitism attached to it.

38. A rule change agreed at Conference in 2018 means that all serious complaints, including antisemitism, are dealt with nationally to ensure consistency.

39. Last year, Jennie Formby wrote to the admins and moderators of Facebook groups about how they can effectively moderate online spaces and requested that any discriminatory content be reported to the Labour Party for investigation.

40. Since last year, no one outside Labour’s Governance and Legal Unit can be involved in decision-making on antisemitism investigations. This independence allows decisions free from political influence to be taken.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Well, technically the person who died did so because she sprayed the bottle on herself, I believe.

So it was manslaughter, not murder.

Manslaughter is without malice aforethought, bar diminished responsibility and the like.

The chain of causation was quite clearly broken. It's likely not murder or manslaughter actually, kind of like if someone left a knife lying around and you stabbed yourself with it. It's likely gross negligence manslaughter.

[Ifreann]

There was that thing with the chemical weapons. People got murdered. Pretty big deal, surprised you didn't hear about it.

Well, technically the person who died did so because she sprayed the bottle on herself, I believe.

So it was manslaughter, not murder.

Oh, well, in that case Putin did nothing wrong. If it wasn't technically murder then clearly Putin is a friend of Britain.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

There was that thing with the chemical weapons. People got murdered. Pretty big deal, surprised you didn't hear about it.

Well, technically the person who died did so because she sprayed the bottle on herself, I believe.

So it was manslaughter, not murder.

If you poison a cake to kill someone, and that someone (or someone else) eate that cake, it is still murder.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Well, technically the person who died did so because she sprayed the bottle on herself, I believe.

So it was manslaughter, not murder.

If you poison a cake to kill someone, and that someone (or someone else) eate that cake, it is still murder.

Sorry, you're right actually. It's been years since I did criminal law, thought the Michael case went the other way.

[Salandriagado]

There was that thing with the chemical weapons. People got murdered. Pretty big deal, surprised you didn't hear about it.

Well, technically the person who died did so because she sprayed the bottle on herself, I believe.

So it was manslaughter, not murder.

Nope, the method has absolutely nothing to do with whether it's murder or not.

[Novus America]

Well, technically the person who died did so because she sprayed the bottle on herself, I believe.

So it was manslaughter, not murder.

Nope, the method has absolutely nothing to do with whether it's murder or not.

Certain methods create prima facie evidence of intent.
Deliberately poisoning a cake is prima facia evidence of premeditation, whereas shooting someone is not necessarily premeditated. It might be, but does not create the same presumption posion or lying in wait do.

Transferred intent is also a thing in many jurisdictions.

So posioning a cake someone besides the target eats is prima facie evidence of premeditation.
And the intent is transferred to the actual victim.

And there is no doubt here. The chemical weapon was deliberately brought the the UK with premeditated murder in mind, and even though the actual target survived and an innocent bystander was killed, it is still premeditated murder.

[Bienenhalde]

British politics is having a Life of Brian moment.

Not quite.

I'm not sure all the parties involved are that interested in liberation for the people of Judea.

It appears that Corbyn would prefer to see the Judeans oppressed by Arab invaders.

[Bienenhalde]

Corbyn's apparent ties towards anti-Jewish groups are quite worrying, and I commend the former Labor MPs who have quit the party in protest of his actions.

[Vassenor]

Not quite.

I'm not sure all the parties involved are that interested in liberation for the people of Judea.

It appears that Corbyn would prefer to see the Judeans oppressed by Arab invaders.

Based on what?