UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

[Ostroeuropa]

Israeli governance has been described as 'apartheid', which is a crime against humanity, and Israeli soldiers have shot civilians without repercussion, which is a war crime.

The Israeli government is far from the level of apartheid and to claim that it rises to that level is an insult to those who suffered under apartheid.

Is there systemic racism? Most definitely. However it’s not on the level of separate living, drinking, dining, and other facilities. And Arabs in Israel get to vote, run for office, and hold judicial seats. Something a native African could never have done under apartheid.

Palestine is effectively the apartheid part of the country. This distinction is as pointless as if South Africa recognized the nominal independence of its black regions where it expected black people to stay and mine resources, built walls around it and made sure nobody could trade with them except South Africa, and then shrugged and said "Well it's equal!".

Given that Israel has seized palestinian land to build on, viewing palestine as a sovereign state isn't viewing the situation appropriately. It is as sovereign as Israel cares to let it be.

It's much like if the US gave ""independence"" to black majority areas, kept them poor and starving, then annexed half of it and forced the others into an increasingly tight space, at the same time as actively fighting against international recognition of their country as existing, thereby meaning trade agreements couldn't be made with them.

Israels stance on Palestinian recognition means you can't really say they are treating them as an independent nation. They are, for all intents and purposes, a part of Israel. Recognizing that means recognizing the palestinian territory as existing in a state of apartheid.

[Thermodolia]

The Israeli government is far from the level of apartheid and to claim that it rises to that level is an insult to those who suffered under apartheid.

Is there systemic racism? Most definitely. However it’s not on the level of separate living, drinking, dining, and other facilities. And Arabs in Israel get to vote, run for office, and hold judicial seats. Something a native African could never have done under apartheid.

The system in the occupation of the west bank, however, does qualify as such.

Possibly. Though it being a military occupation and not civilian governance you have a bit more leeway.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

[picture of the Queen shaking hands with Martin McGuinness]

a) the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.
b) Shaking hands with the queen is worse than committing terrorist attacks anyway.

[picture of the police attacking protesters]

That happens all over the world. The police are nonpartisan as well so it isn't a political motive.

…
The PIRA never sanctioned a terrorist attack?
okay
Next?

[The Huskar Social Union]

[picture of the Queen shaking hands with Martin McGuinness]

a) the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.
b) Shaking hands with the queen is worse than committing terrorist attacks anyway.

[picture of the police attacking protesters]

That happens all over the world. The police are nonpartisan as well so it isn't a political motive.

The IRA were terrorists and they carried out terrorist acts, of which they carried out plenty.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The system in the occupation of the west bank, however, does qualify as such.

Possibly. Though it being a military occupation and not civilian governance you have a bit more leeway.

When said military occupation is in itself unnecessary, you don't.

[Ifreann]

[picture of the Queen shaking hands with Martin McGuinness]

a) the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.
b) Shaking hands with the queen is worse than committing terrorist attacks anyway.

I actually laughed, thanks.

[picture of the police attacking protesters]

That happens all over the world. The police are nonpartisan as well so it isn't a political motive.

The police enforce the law. If that's not a political purpose then nothing is.

[Eglaecia]

a) the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.
b) Shaking hands with the queen is worse than committing terrorist attacks anyway.


That happens all over the world. The police are nonpartisan as well so it isn't a political motive.

The IRA were terrorists and they carried out terrorist acts.

Individual members of the PIRA carried out terrorist attacks. The PIRA never sanctioned a single act of terrorism.

a) the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.
b) Shaking hands with the queen is worse than committing terrorist attacks anyway.


That happens all over the world. The police are nonpartisan as well so it isn't a political motive.

…
The PIRA never sanctioned a terrorist attack?
okay
Next?

Go on lad, prove me wrong.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

I wonder if we can expect the Tories facing deselection to join the secret seven?

[The Huskar Social Union]

The IRA were terrorists and they carried out terrorist acts.

Individual members of the PIRA carried out terrorist attacks. The PIRA never sanctioned a single act of terrorism.

…
The PIRA never sanctioned a terrorist attack?
okay
Next?

Go on lad, prove me wrong.

Sure Jan and im the Queens left ass cheek.

[Thermodolia]

Possibly. Though it being a military occupation and not civilian governance you have a bit more leeway.

When said military occupation is in itself unnecessary, you don't.

Not going to disagree

[Vassenor]

[picture of the Queen shaking hands with Martin McGuinness]

a) the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.
b) Shaking hands with the queen is worse than committing terrorist attacks anyway.

[picture of the police attacking protesters]

That happens all over the world. The police are nonpartisan as well so it isn't a political motive.

At a meeting of the Provisional IRA Army Council in June 1972, Sean MacStiofain proposed bombing targets in England to "take the heat off Belfast and Derry". However, the Army Council did not consent to a bombing campaign in England until early 1973, after talks with the British government the previous year had broken down.[58] They believed that such bombing would help create a demand among the British public for their government to withdraw from Northern Ireland.[59]

For a group that never sanctioned terrorist attacks, that sounds a whole lot like sanctioning terrorist attacks.

[Trumptonium1]

I wonder if we can expect the Tories facing deselection to join the secret seven?

ConservativeHome reporting that the 5 Conservative MPs facing almost inevitable deselection by the party's local associations (Grieves, Allen, Boles, Wollaston, Letwin) have been in contact with Chris Leslie to join a new "centre-right liberal remain party" unless the party (extremely unlikely) commits to either suspending the deselection procedure system or throws out the 50 000 Conservatives who signed up in the last 3 months. In the latter case, this would make no difference because the core of the party is still something like 85%+ Brexit and ~60%+ no deal.

Then again they have nothing to lose. Their political careers, at least as Tories, are one hundred percent over. Hopefully that Soubry twat joins them in their yellower pastures.

I for one am shocked that Lib Dems masquerading as Conservatives want to in fact join the Lib Dems with a different name. Whuddathunk?

Bye bye. Nobody will miss you.

(Image)

ergo --> see conservativehome

[Thermodolia]

The Israeli government is far from the level of apartheid and to claim that it rises to that level is an insult to those who suffered under apartheid.

Is there systemic racism? Most definitely. However it’s not on the level of separate living, drinking, dining, and other facilities. And Arabs in Israel get to vote, run for office, and hold judicial seats. Something a native African could never have done under apartheid.

Palestine is effectively the apartheid part of the country. This distinction is as pointless as if South Africa recognized the nominal independence of its black regions where it expected black people to stay and mine resources, built walls around it and made sure nobody could trade with them except South Africa, and then shrugged and said "Well it's equal!".

Given that Israel has seized palestinian land to build on, viewing palestine as a sovereign state isn't viewing the situation appropriately. It is as sovereign as Israel cares to let it be.

It's much like if the US gave ""independence"" to black majority areas, kept them poor and starving, then annexed half of it and forced the others into an increasingly tight space, at the same time as actively fighting against international recognition of their country as existing, thereby meaning trade agreements couldn't be made with them.

Israels stance on Palestinian recognition means you can't really say they are treating them as an independent nation. They are, for all intents and purposes, a part of Israel. Recognizing that means recognizing the palestinian territory as existing in a state of apartheid.

Why Israel doesn’t just annex the area entirely and end the military occupation is Beyond me

[Ostroeuropa]

Possibly. Though it being a military occupation and not civilian governance you have a bit more leeway.

When said military occupation is in itself unnecessary, you don't.

It is either necessary in which case Israel's refusal to press on the war they claim they are fighting in self-defence and which they could clearly win and annex palestine is unconscionable and amounts to an Orwellian perpetual war against an enemy, or unnecessary and indicative of Israels war crimes.

The fact that Israel has overwhelming force superiority, keeps telling us they are under attack and that is why they have occupied half the enemy country, but could easily occupy the other half and simply chooses not to, makes them the bad guys.

They cannot bitch and whine about a war they are actively prolonging through their inaction.

Why Israel doesn’t just annex the area entirely and end the military occupation is Beyond me

I completely agree with you.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Palestine is effectively the apartheid part of the country. This distinction is as pointless as if South Africa recognized the nominal independence of its black regions where it expected black people to stay and mine resources, built walls around it and made sure nobody could trade with them except South Africa, and then shrugged and said "Well it's equal!".

Given that Israel has seized palestinian land to build on, viewing palestine as a sovereign state isn't viewing the situation appropriately. It is as sovereign as Israel cares to let it be.

It's much like if the US gave ""independence"" to black majority areas, kept them poor and starving, then annexed half of it and forced the others into an increasingly tight space, at the same time as actively fighting against international recognition of their country as existing, thereby meaning trade agreements couldn't be made with them.

Israels stance on Palestinian recognition means you can't really say they are treating them as an independent nation. They are, for all intents and purposes, a part of Israel. Recognizing that means recognizing the palestinian territory as existing in a state of apartheid.

Why Israel doesn’t just annex the area entirely and end the military occupation is Beyond me

Probably because it would start another major war in the region and cause Israel a ton more problems on top of what it already deals with.

[The New California Republic]

the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.

What a load of shit.

[Eglaecia]

a) the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.
b) Shaking hands with the queen is worse than committing terrorist attacks anyway.


That happens all over the world. The police are nonpartisan as well so it isn't a political motive.

At a meeting of the Provisional IRA Army Council in June 1972, Sean MacStiofain proposed bombing targets in England to "take the heat off Belfast and Derry". However, the Army Council did not consent to a bombing campaign in England until early 1973, after talks with the British government the previous year had broken down.[58] They believed that such bombing would help create a demand among the British public for their government to withdraw from Northern Ireland.[59]

For a group that never sanctioned terrorist attacks, that sounds a whole lot like sanctioning terrorist attacks.

That isn't terrorism, the PIRA was at war with the UK. England was a legitimate target.

[Eglaecia]

the Provisional IRA never sanctioned a single terrorist attack once, all terrorist attacks perpetrated by the PIRA were by lone wolves acting outside of their orders.

What a load of shit.

Funny you all keep saying I'm wrong but only one of you has tried to refute it.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Palestine is effectively the apartheid part of the country. This distinction is as pointless as if South Africa recognized the nominal independence of its black regions where it expected black people to stay and mine resources, built walls around it and made sure nobody could trade with them except South Africa, and then shrugged and said "Well it's equal!".

Given that Israel has seized palestinian land to build on, viewing palestine as a sovereign state isn't viewing the situation appropriately. It is as sovereign as Israel cares to let it be.

It's much like if the US gave ""independence"" to black majority areas, kept them poor and starving, then annexed half of it and forced the others into an increasingly tight space, at the same time as actively fighting against international recognition of their country as existing, thereby meaning trade agreements couldn't be made with them.

Israels stance on Palestinian recognition means you can't really say they are treating them as an independent nation. They are, for all intents and purposes, a part of Israel. Recognizing that means recognizing the palestinian territory as existing in a state of apartheid.

Why Israel doesn’t just annex the area entirely and end the military occupation is Beyond me

Why the West allows Israel to continue what it is doing should be beyond me, but sadly international law isn't as important as a nice ally against the people we've randomly decided are a threat.

[Vassenor]

For a group that never sanctioned terrorist attacks, that sounds a whole lot like sanctioning terrorist attacks.

That isn't terrorism, the PIRA was at war with the UK. England was a legitimate target.

And the various Palestinian organisations are at war with Israel, ergo they are just acting against "legitimate targets" and thus are not terrorists by your logic.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

For a group that never sanctioned terrorist attacks, that sounds a whole lot like sanctioning terrorist attacks.

That isn't terrorism, the PIRA was at war with the UK. England was a legitimate target.

If that is your definition, Hamas are also not terrorists as they are at war with Israel.

[Thermodolia]

Why Israel doesn’t just annex the area entirely and end the military occupation is Beyond me

Probably because it would start another major war in the region and cause Israel a ton more problems on top of what it already deals with.

Its not like they haven’t had to fight major wars before. And at this point they are nominal allies with Egypt, supply Jordan and Lebanon with vital natural gas, and they have nukes.

So I doubt they would kick of a major war

[Ostroeuropa]

Why Israel doesn’t just annex the area entirely and end the military occupation is Beyond me

Why the West allows Israel to continue what it is doing should be beyond me, but sadly international law isn't as important as a nice ally against the people we've randomly decided are a threat.

I said before i'd support an ultimatum to Israel that they either withdraw to the legal borders, or continue the war and annex Palestine with the understanding there would be constitutional equality for palestinians.

Failing to do either results in a withdrawal of support, sanctions and so on. In the event they prosecute the war, we should support them with material and so on.

Tell them if they don't think they can handle the territory, to withdraw to the legal borders. If they can, end this perpetual war in the middle east by winning it.

The ultimatum should be phrased as "Resolve the situation by any means available to you, because perpetual war is not an acceptable outcome. Either win, or withdraw.".

[The New California Republic]

What a load of shit.

Funny you all keep saying I'm wrong but only one of you has tried to refute it.

Vass beat me to it, but the Birmingham Pub Bombings spring to mind as part of a catalogue of general shite that they did.

[Thermodolia]

Why Israel doesn’t just annex the area entirely and end the military occupation is Beyond me

Why the West allows Israel to continue what it is doing should be beyond me, but sadly international law isn't as important as a nice ally against the people we've randomly decided are a threat.

International law is just something other nations use to beat their enemies over the head with. Nobody actually cares about it.