UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

[Eglaecia]

friends with anti-semitic terrorists

I'm not making assumptions, but for Jews in this country, anti-semitism is on display so much we can make out subtle anti-semitism with ease. You're trying to justify anti-semitism, you're enabling anti-semites, but the idea of publicly being called an anti-semite is revolting to you.

So basically by not automatically agreeing with you. Got it.

If you espouse anti-semitic views, that makes you an anti-semite. If you so much as enable anti-semitism, that make you an anti-semite. Don't want to be called an anti-semite, don't be anti-semitic.
Also funny to note, all of this is coming from my "fact check" of a previous statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism in Labour. Funny that.

[Vassenor]

So basically by not automatically agreeing with you. Got it.

If you espouse anti-semitic views, that makes you an anti-semite. If you so much as enable anti-semitism, that make you an anti-semite. Don't want to be called an anti-semite, don't be anti-semitic.

And yet you won't demonstrate me doing any of those things.

[Eglaecia]

friends with anti-semitic terrorists

I'm not making assumptions, but for Jews in this country, anti-semitism is on display so much we can make out subtle anti-semitism with ease. You're trying to justify anti-semitism, you're enabling anti-semites, but the idea of publicly being called an anti-semite is revolting to you.

I think lots of groups have lots of things in common, the one you are pushing for may not be it.

There are less/non antisemitic organisations that are opposed to Israel. Corbyn sides with anti-semitic terrorists instead.

[The New California Republic]

Oh right, the old "he was in the same room as someone from Hamas" crack.

I'm sure you're probably aware of this already and just ignoring it because you want to continue being anti-semitic

And do you have any evidence that Vassenor is anti-semitic, or are you just throwing around accusations as a really underhanded debating tactic?

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

https://twitter.com/MikeSegalov/status/1097487967730483201?s=19

Angela Smith uses phrase "funny tinge" in reference to BAME people on national TV.

Guess the other six had better split off and form the Independent Independent Group.

You'd think a group so small could go a day without shooting themselves in the foot.

[Eglaecia]

If you espouse anti-semitic views, that makes you an anti-semite. If you so much as enable anti-semitism, that make you an anti-semite. Don't want to be called an anti-semite, don't be anti-semitic.

And yet you won't demonstrate me doing any of those things.

All of this comes from me fact checking a statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism within the Labour party. Your refusal to accept how prevalent antisemitism is in Labour, is antisemitic.

[Vassenor]

And yet you won't demonstrate me doing any of those things.

All of this comes from me fact checking a statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism within the Labour party. Your refusal to accept how prevalent antisemitism is in Labour, is antisemitic.

So yes, you're hiding behind the "you won't agree with me so you must be prejudiced against me" line.

[Eglaecia]

All of this comes from me fact checking a statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism within the Labour party. Your refusal to accept how prevalent antisemitism is in Labour, is antisemitic.

So yes, you're hiding behind the "you won't agree with me so you must be prejudiced against me" line.

A holocaust denier could throw the same line out when called antisemitic for not accepting 6 million as the death count.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

And yet you won't demonstrate me doing any of those things.

All of this comes from me fact checking a statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism within the Labour party. Your refusal to accept how prevalent antisemitism is in Labour, is antisemitic.

So if someone doesn't agree with you they must be what you claim? Appears debating with you will not be a fruitful endeavour.

[Ostroeuropa]

The 7 Labour MPs are circumventing campaign finance laws by refusing to found a political party and billing themselves as a "Business that helps Independent MPs get elected", meaning they don't have to declare where their funding comes from and can spout a bunch of political propaganda and messaging and so on without being investigated or forced to be transparent.

Given the ties between this group and Labour friends of Israel and their sticking to the "Anti-semite" narrative, I think it's fairly obvious they are basically good evidence that Israeli interference in our politics is a bigger issue than Russian interference.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The abuse being handed out in this thread over today's news - and from a range of different political perspectives - is nothing short of extraordinary.

Less than ten years ago the first version of this thread was known for its civility, with NSG regulars more used to the tone of American politics astonished at how comparatively civilised British political discussion was, and how polite the participants tended to be, even to people with different viewpoints.

One coalition, two* referendums, three general elections, and various leadership changes later, and now look where we are.

Few things are more likely to convince me that something's fundamentally broken in our politics than the scale of the growth of vitriol that people feel entirely comfortable flinging at people they disagree with.

God, it's depressing.



*Scotland and Brexit; I'm not counting the electoral reform referendum.

It'd be far more depressing if people weren't fundamentally questioning the legitimacy of the system and the people manning it after Thatcherism gutted social housing, public spending, social services and British industry, the placeholder era of first minimal progress and then its rollback under New Labour, the massive transfer of wealth from the working people to bankers and wealthy shareholders under the quantitative easing program and austerity, and now the unprecedented display of sheer incompetence that is the handling of Brexit.

The social effects of these policies have been handwaved through "there is no alternative" narratives of globalisation, blaming migrants, blaming the EU, and now there's no-one outside left to blame.

And when the first real opposition arises in decades, large numbers of MPs elected to represent a re-energised Labour movement instead try to systematically undermine it and some actively, openly, seek to jump ship for a new party aiming to drag the """centre ground""" back away from doing anything to address the fundamental issues of an economy that's been stacked against the interests of the vast majority of society for decades.

The mainstream has failed. The majority of our representatives are enemies of the people who show us absolutely no respect - why do they deserve any?

[Trumptonium1]

And here I was thinking that the Tories were going to be the first ones to break themselves apart.

But their hatred for Corbyn unites them as the stronger and stabler of the two big parties.

Ever since Peel split the Tories over Corn Law repeal in the 1845-1846, the Conservative Party has been single-minded in its determination to avoid a repeat. It's also been remarkably successful in doing so, when every major opposition party it's faced - including both the Liberals and Labour - has at some point split and counter-split.

As a demonstration of iron political will based on the lessons of history, it's not something I'd readily dismiss.

Whether it's always been what's best for the country is a different issue.

Not entirely correct - Joseph Chamberlain split the Conservative Party in pursuit of tariff rises, anti-war and pro-imperialism in 1906. Although the split failed horribly.

In a way there was also another split in 1950 with many Conservatives flocking to National Liberals.

[Imperializt Russia]

And yet you won't demonstrate me doing any of those things.

All of this comes from me fact checking a statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism within the Labour party. Your refusal to accept how prevalent antisemitism is in Labour, is antisemitic.

I note that you failed to demonstrate Corbyn actually espousing or holding antisemitic views.

Just said that he called Hamas his friends once (because he's more or less the only westerner interested in bringing them into the fold re the two state solution) and therefore, he's secretly Hitlertron 2.0

I mean, that is literally what you have asserted.

[The New California Republic]

All of this comes from me fact checking a statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism within the Labour party. Your refusal to accept how prevalent antisemitism is in Labour, is antisemitic.

So if someone doesn't agree with you they must be what you claim? Appears debating with you will not be a fruitful endeavour.

It's fucking awful, isn't it?

[Eglaecia]

All of this comes from me fact checking a statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism within the Labour party. Your refusal to accept how prevalent antisemitism is in Labour, is antisemitic.

I note that you failed to demonstrate Corbyn actually espousing or holding antisemitic views.

Just said that he called Hamas his friends once (because he's more or less the only westerner interested in bringing them into the fold re the two state solution) and therefore, he's secretly Hitlertron 2.0

I mean, that is literally what you have asserted.

Being antisemitic doesn't put you on the same level as Hitler, but, calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends shows he's an enabler of antisemitism, and therefore is antisemitic. While his (publicly stated) views may not be explicitly antisemitic, it's the people that he enables that are.

[Eglaecia]

All of this comes from me fact checking a statement trying to mitigate the extent of antisemitism within the Labour party. Your refusal to accept how prevalent antisemitism is in Labour, is antisemitic.

So if someone doesn't agree with you they must be what you claim? Appears debating with you will not be a fruitful endeavour.

This is literally the same rhetoric holocaust deniers use. "I'm antisemitic because I don't agree with you" is not an argument. If you enable antisemitism, you are antisemitic. There's no getting around that. Either stop being antisemitic or just embrace it.

[Trumptonium1]

Corbyn is antisemitic and that much is clear. He hangs around with terrorists at every opportunity.

Which is no surprise, the man unironically supported a motion in the early 2000s condemning modern society and calling for an apocalypse together with McDonnell and some other lone loon. He's basically a heap of depression, which explains his dumb decisions.

[Ostroeuropa]

The abuse being handed out in this thread over today's news - and from a range of different political perspectives - is nothing short of extraordinary.

Less than ten years ago the first version of this thread was known for its civility, with NSG regulars more used to the tone of American politics astonished at how comparatively civilised British political discussion was, and how polite the participants tended to be, even to people with different viewpoints.

One coalition, two* referendums, three general elections, and various leadership changes later, and now look where we are.

Few things are more likely to convince me that something's fundamentally broken in our politics than the scale of the growth of vitriol that people feel entirely comfortable flinging at people they disagree with.

God, it's depressing.



*Scotland and Brexit; I'm not counting the electoral reform referendum.

It'd be far more depressing if people weren't fundamentally questioning the legitimacy of the system and the people manning it after Thatcherism gutted social housing, public spending, social services and British industry, the placeholder era of first minimal progress and then its rollback under New Labour, the massive transfer of wealth from the working people to bankers and wealthy shareholders under the quantitative easing program and austerity, and now the unprecedented display of sheer incompetence that is the handling of Brexit.

The social effects of these policies have been handwaved through "there is no alternative" narratives of globalisation, blaming migrants, blaming the EU, and now there's no-one outside left to blame.

And when the first real opposition arises in decades, large numbers of MPs elected to represent a re-energised Labour movement instead try to systematically undermine it and some actively, openly, seek to jump ship for a new party aiming to drag the """centre ground""" back away from doing anything to address the fundamental issues of an economy that's been stacked against the interests of the vast majority of society for decades.

The mainstream has failed. The majority of our representatives are enemies of the people who show us absolutely no respect - why do they deserve any?

This. What people in this thread often refuse to accept on top of the elitism of neoliberalism is the elitism of the feminist agenda on top of that.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47006912

Fewer than one in five young women would call themselves a feminist

+

Almost one in three people from the top social grade ABC1 - those in managerial, administrative and professional occupations - called themselves a feminist

I.E, It is a political ideology primarily held by the privileged and imposed on the rest of us, just like Thatcherite neoliberalism.

When you couple that with the aggressive hostility, censorship, condescension, and gaslighting the feminists in our establishment use against their critics, it comes down to your point.

The mainstream has failed. The majority of our representatives are enemies of the people who show us absolutely no respect - why do they deserve any?

The breakdown of civility in politics is due to the lack of representation of the people and the political gaslighting certain movements are using to gatekeep and cling to power while presenting themselves as the norm in society.

The overwhelming majority of the public opposes our current trajectory on both economic and social issues. There is nothing "Uncivilized" about refusing to tolerate Marie Antoinettes shit and no longer allowing her to pretend this is a debate between equal sides. What it is, is a debate between a bunch of privileged, gaslighting, elitists, who abuse their authority to spread misinformation and impose an agenda that is undemocratic, and the rest of us.

They cannot allow civilized debate and expect to cling to power, and so are forced to abuse their authority and treat their opponents with contempt and vilification. (See any non-feminist ideas, or anything to the left of thatcher and how it is treated.).

[Imperializt Russia]

I note that you failed to demonstrate Corbyn actually espousing or holding antisemitic views.

Just said that he called Hamas his friends once (because he's more or less the only westerner interested in bringing them into the fold re the two state solution) and therefore, he's secretly Hitlertron 2.0

I mean, that is literally what you have asserted.

Being antisemitic doesn't put you on the same level as Hitler, but, calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends shows he's an enabler of antisemitism, and therefore is antisemitic. While his (publicly stated) views may not be explicitly antisemitic, it's the people that he enables that are.

Well, antisemitic dickbags or no, Hamas are the elected officials forming (what passes for) a government in Palestine, and Palestine is one of the two states of the two-state solution that successive Israeli administrations have spent decades undermining.

Not bringing the Palestinian government to the table of talks in a UN-backed two-state solution would be pointless, no?

[The Blaatschapen]

That would be Netherlands.

Because that is where PR has gotten us

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_ ... etherlands)#Parties

13 different parties in parliament. Two Greens(GL, PvdD), two far right(PVV, FVD), two liberal(D66, VVD), two deeply christian(CU, SGP), one mildly christian, and arguably two social democrat (SP is far left, PvdA is more Labour)

(though these did not 'split' from each other mostly)

That is a far better system than what we have in the UK, Imho. You're more likely to find someone you actually want to vote for.

Personally, I vote for the People's Front of Judea

[Eglaecia]

Being antisemitic doesn't put you on the same level as Hitler, but, calling Hamas and Hezbollah his friends shows he's an enabler of antisemitism, and therefore is antisemitic. While his (publicly stated) views may not be explicitly antisemitic, it's the people that he enables that are.

Well, antisemitic dickbags or no, Hamas are the elected officials forming (what passes for) a government in Palestine, and Palestine is one of the two states of the two-state solution that successive Israeli administrations have spent decades undermining.

Not bringing the Palestinian government to the table of talks in a UN-backed two-state solution would be pointless, no?

Elected officials or not, they're still a terrorist organisation. We should kill terrorists, not negotiate with them.

[Imperializt Russia]

Well, antisemitic dickbags or no, Hamas are the elected officials forming (what passes for) a government in Palestine, and Palestine is one of the two states of the two-state solution that successive Israeli administrations have spent decades undermining.

Not bringing the Palestinian government to the table of talks in a UN-backed two-state solution would be pointless, no?

Elected officials or not, they're still a terrorist organisation. We should kill terrorists, not negotiate with them.

Because that's solved so many problems since WWII hasn't it?

[Ostroeuropa]

Well, antisemitic dickbags or no, Hamas are the elected officials forming (what passes for) a government in Palestine, and Palestine is one of the two states of the two-state solution that successive Israeli administrations have spent decades undermining.

Not bringing the Palestinian government to the table of talks in a UN-backed two-state solution would be pointless, no?

Elected officials or not, they're still a terrorist organisation. We should kill terrorists, not negotiate with them.

Sovereign government or no, Israel is a state committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. Should we kill Likud members, not negotiate with them?

Illegal settlements and illegal occupation are part of the problem too. But Corbyn has acknowledged this while still calling Israel a friend. Does that make him anti-muslim?

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Well, antisemitic dickbags or no, Hamas are the elected officials forming (what passes for) a government in Palestine, and Palestine is one of the two states of the two-state solution that successive Israeli administrations have spent decades undermining.

Not bringing the Palestinian government to the table of talks in a UN-backed two-state solution would be pointless, no?

Elected officials or not, they're still a terrorist organisation. We should kill terrorists, not negotiate with them.

Everyone is a terrorist to someone. Terrorism is partially, though not entirely, in the eye of the beholder. In many countries, human rights defenders are considered terrorists. It's more a national label than an objective standard.

[Thermodolia]

The abuse being handed out in this thread over today's news - and from a range of different political perspectives - is nothing short of extraordinary.

Less than ten years ago the first version of this thread was known for its civility, with NSG regulars more used to the tone of American politics astonished at how comparatively civilised British political discussion was, and how polite the participants tended to be, even to people with different viewpoints.

One coalition, two* referendums, three general elections, and various leadership changes later, and now look where we are.

Few things are more likely to convince me that something's fundamentally broken in our politics than the scale of the growth of vitriol that people feel entirely comfortable flinging at people they disagree with.

God, it's depressing.



*Scotland and Brexit; I'm not counting the electoral reform referendum.

I blame the voting system