UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

[Vassenor]

Ignorant yank who occasionally skims this thread here:

Where are the accusations of racism and anti-Semitism against Labour coming from, exactly?

Corbyn criticised Israel.

[The Archregimancy]

The abuse being handed out in this thread over today's news - and from a range of different political perspectives - is nothing short of extraordinary.

Less than ten years ago the first version of this thread was known for its civility, with NSG regulars more used to the tone of American politics astonished at how comparatively civilised British political discussion was, and how polite the participants tended to be, even to people with different viewpoints.

One coalition, two* referendums, three general elections, and various leadership changes later, and now look where we are.

Few things are more likely to convince me that something's fundamentally broken in our politics than the scale of the growth of vitriol that people feel entirely comfortable flinging at people they disagree with.

God, it's depressing.



*Scotland and Brexit; I'm not counting the electoral reform referendum.

[Ifreann]

Ignorant yank who occasionally skims this thread here:

Where are the accusations of racism and anti-Semitism against Labour coming from, exactly?

Corbyn criticising Israel.

[The Blaatschapen]

And here I was thinking that the Tories were going to be the first ones to break themselves apart.

But their hatred for Corbyn unites them as the stronger and stabler of the two big parties.

[Imperializt Russia]

Ignorant yank who occasionally skims this thread here:

Where are the accusations of racism and anti-Semitism against Labour coming from, exactly?

They are coming from prominent Jewish MPs and Jewish interest groups in Labour, but they're being amplified by a peculiar recurring set of right-Labour figures who were already deeply anti-Corbyn, along with the right wing and centre-right media. Who are also deeply anti-Corbyn.

I am absolutely certain that Luciana Berger and others have suffered antisemitic abuse during their time in Labour, which is disgusting, and that Corbyn's election may have emboldened antisemites in Labour (the unfortunate overlap between criticism of Israel and antisemitism that exists elsewhere), but Corbyn didn't fan that in the way that Tories or Trump have fanned Islamophobia. It seems to have been partway coincidental.

But saying all of this makes me sound like I'm calling it a conspiracy theory, so they've all done a very good job of sowing the narrative to effectively gaslight us.

[The Blaatschapen]

The abuse being handed out in this thread over today's news - and from a range of different political perspectives - is nothing short of extraordinary.

Less than ten years ago the first version of this thread was known for its civility, with NSG regulars more used to the tone of American politics astonished at how comparatively civilised British political discussion was, and how polite the participants tended to be, even to people with different viewpoints.

One coalition, two* referendums, three general elections, and various leadership changes later, and now look where we are.

Few things are more likely to convince me that something's fundamentally broken in our politics than the scale of the growth of vitriol that people feel entirely comfortable flinging at people they disagree with.

God, it's depressing.



*Scotland and Brexit; I'm not counting the electoral reform referendum.

Heh, given American and British politics and its debates, I've fled into German as a language and culture. Since I want *less* of this anglosaxon influence in my country.

At least I get my wish, Trump and Brexit are quite isolationist in nature

[Imperializt Russia]

The abuse being handed out in this thread over today's news - and from a range of different political perspectives - is nothing short of extraordinary.

Less than ten years ago the first version of this thread was known for its civility, with NSG regulars more used to the tone of American politics astonished at how comparatively civilised British political discussion was, and how polite the participants tended to be, even to people with different viewpoints.

One coalition, two* referendums, three general elections, and various leadership changes later, and now look where we are.

Few things are more likely to convince me that something's fundamentally broken in our politics than the scale of the growth of vitriol that people feel entirely comfortable flinging at people they disagree with.

God, it's depressing.



*Scotland and Brexit; I'm not counting the electoral reform referendum.

With the amount of American and Australian election advice being sought by Blair's New Labour and the Tories, is it any wonder?

There seemed to be a suspicious overlap between Trump's election and the Tories just adopting his deny everything stance, though it also matches with the Brexit reshuffle.

[The Archregimancy]

Ignorant yank who occasionally skims this thread here:

Where are the accusations of racism and anti-Semitism against Labour coming from, exactly?

Corbyn criticised Israel.

Don't be daft, Vassenor; it's far more than that.

I don't believe that Corbyn is himself deliberately anti-Semitic, but he's shown a tendency to be blind towards anti-Semitism, and there are legitimate concerns that some Corbyn supporters can't distinguish the line between 'strong criticism of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians' and 'negative stereotyping of Jewish people drawing on anti-Semitic tropes'.

For example, anyone who can't see a problem with this mural, the context of (and the artist's own statements about) the mural, or why it might be problematic that Corbyn has previously openly defended this mural, might need to rethink their approach to the issue:

It's more than just one mural, of course; Corbyn has also shown a worrying tendency to share a stage (physical and metaphorical) with individuals who aren't just anti-Israeli, but are openly anti-Semitic; and he clearly struggles to see why this is a problem, just as he struggles to bring himself to condemn a murderous dictator in northern South America when that dictator and his predecessor have previously been the subject of warm words from Corbyn.

Edit:
For the record, I also acknowledge that some of the criticism of certain sections of the Labour Party for anti-Semitism has been politically motivated, self-interested, and hypocritical. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong.

[The New California Republic]

And here I was thinking that the Tories were going to be the first ones to break themselves apart.

But their hatred for Corbyn unites them as the stronger and stabler of the two big parties.

I knew that some kind of split in Labour was inevitable ever since Corbyn took the reins. I would have thought that far more would jump ship, but...

[Vassenor]

Honda's confirmed its factory in Swindon is closing.

[The New California Republic]

Honda's confirmed its factory in Swindon is closing.

I used to live in Lyneham, which isn't far from Swindon. Sad to see that all those jobs are going to go up in smoke.

[The Archregimancy]

And here I was thinking that the Tories were going to be the first ones to break themselves apart.

But their hatred for Corbyn unites them as the stronger and stabler of the two big parties.

Ever since Peel split the Tories over Corn Law repeal in the 1845-1846, the Conservative Party has been single-minded in its determination to avoid a repeat. It's also been remarkably successful in doing so, when every major opposition party it's faced - including both the Liberals and Labour - has at some point split and counter-split.

As a demonstration of iron political will based on the lessons of history, it's not something I'd readily dismiss.

Whether it's always been what's best for the country is a different issue.

[Eglaecia]

Ignorant yank who occasionally skims this thread here:

Where are the accusations of racism and anti-Semitism against Labour coming from, exactly?

Corbyn criticising Israel.

And supporting terrorist groups that are explicitly anti-semitic. Also Tam Dalyell's ZOG remarks. Also Corbyn being reluctant to accept the internationally agreed definition of anti-semitism because it went against his anti-semitic views. The list goes on! But yes it's only over Corbyn being anti-Israel. Maybe if he was anti-Israel in a way that wasn't anti-semitic, no one would care?

[Vassenor]

Corbyn criticising Israel.

And supporting terrorist groups that are explicitly anti-semitic. Also Tam Dalyell's ZOG remarks. Also Corbyn being reluctant to accept the internationally agreed definition of anti-semitism because it went against his anti-semitic views. The list goes on! But yes it's only over Corbyn being anti-Israel. Maybe if he was anti-Israel in a way that wasn't anti-semitic, no one would care?

Oh right, the old "he was in the same room as someone from Hamas" crack.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Given the reason Honda have stated, that because of the EU trade deal kicking in and tariffs going down to zero all production will return to Japan, presumably Nissan will also end up closing the Sunderland plant.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

And supporting terrorist groups that are explicitly anti-semitic. Also Tam Dalyell's ZOG remarks. Also Corbyn being reluctant to accept the internationally agreed definition of anti-semitism because it went against his anti-semitic views. The list goes on! But yes it's only over Corbyn being anti-Israel. Maybe if he was anti-Israel in a way that wasn't anti-semitic, no one would care?

Oh right, the old "he was in the same room as someone from Hamas" crack.

Stop it, I don't like agreeing with Vassenor, it doesn't feel right.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

And here I was thinking that the Tories were going to be the first ones to break themselves apart.

But their hatred for Corbyn unites them as the stronger and stabler of the two big parties.

Ever since Peel split the Tories over Corn Law repeal in the 1845-1846, the Conservative Party has been single-minded in its determination to avoid a repeat. It's also been remarkably successful in doing so, when every major opposition party it's faced - including both the Liberals and Labour - has at some point split and counter-split.

As a demonstration of iron political will based on the lessons of history, it's not something I'd readily dismiss.

Whether it's always been what's best for the country is a different issue.

If all the political parties split down about 6 different lines it would likely be good for the country. We have too many big tents to vote for now that don't really speak for anybody.

[Eglaecia]

And supporting terrorist groups that are explicitly anti-semitic. Also Tam Dalyell's ZOG remarks. Also Corbyn being reluctant to accept the internationally agreed definition of anti-semitism because it went against his anti-semitic views. The list goes on! But yes it's only over Corbyn being anti-Israel. Maybe if he was anti-Israel in a way that wasn't anti-semitic, no one would care?

Oh right, the old "he was in the same room as someone from Hamas" crack.

I'm sure you're probably aware of this already and just ignoring it because you want to continue being anti-semitic, but Corbyn referred to Hamas and Hezbollah as his friends. You know, Hezbollah, the radical Shia terrorist organisation that promotes holocaust denial and genocide, and Hamas, another radical Islamist terrorist organisation who's charter between 1988 and 2017 contained the line "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews"

[Philjia]

https://twitter.com/MikeSegalov/status/ ... 83201?s=19

Angela Smith uses phrase "funny tinge" in reference to BAME people on national TV.

[Vassenor]

Oh right, the old "he was in the same room as someone from Hamas" crack.

I'm sure you're probably aware of this already and just ignoring it because you want to continue being anti-semitic, but Corbyn referred to Hamas and Hezbollah as his friends. You know, Hezbollah, the radical Shia terrorist organisation that promotes holocaust denial and genocide, and Hamas, another radical Islamist terrorist organisation who's charter between 1988 and 2017 contained the line "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews"

Cool. Cite it.

Also don't make assumptions about my views like that just to fit your narratives. Unless you're also prepared to present evidence of me actually saying anti-semitic things.

[The Blaatschapen]

Ever since Peel split the Tories over Corn Law repeal in the 1845-1846, the Conservative Party has been single-minded in its determination to avoid a repeat. It's also been remarkably successful in doing so, when every major opposition party it's faced - including both the Liberals and Labour - has at some point split and counter-split.

As a demonstration of iron political will based on the lessons of history, it's not something I'd readily dismiss.

Whether it's always been what's best for the country is a different issue.

If all the political parties split down about 6 different lines it would likely be good for the country. We have too many big tents to vote for now that don't really speak for anybody.

That would be Netherlands.

Because that is where PR has gotten us

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_ ... etherlands)#Parties

13 different parties in parliament. Two Greens(GL, PvdD), two far right(PVV, FVD), two liberal(D66, VVD), two deeply christian(CU, SGP), one mildly christian, and arguably two social democrat (SP is far left, PvdA is more Labour)

(though these did not 'split' from each other mostly)

[Eglaecia]

I'm sure you're probably aware of this already and just ignoring it because you want to continue being anti-semitic, but Corbyn referred to Hamas and Hezbollah as his friends. You know, Hezbollah, the radical Shia terrorist organisation that promotes holocaust denial and genocide, and Hamas, another radical Islamist terrorist organisation who's charter between 1988 and 2017 contained the line "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews"

Cool. Cite it.

Also don't make assumptions about my views like that just to fit your narratives. Unless you're also prepared to present evidence of me actually saying anti-semitic things.

friends with anti-semitic terrorists

I'm not making assumptions, but for Jews in this country, anti-semitism is on display so much we can make out subtle anti-semitism with ease. You're trying to justify anti-semitism, you're enabling anti-semites, but the idea of publicly being called an anti-semite is revolting to you.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

If all the political parties split down about 6 different lines it would likely be good for the country. We have too many big tents to vote for now that don't really speak for anybody.

That would be Netherlands.

Because that is where PR has gotten us

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_ ... etherlands)#Parties

13 different parties in parliament. Two Greens(GL, PvdD), two far right(PVV, FVD), two liberal(D66, VVD), two deeply christian(CU, SGP), one mildly christian, and arguably two social democrat (SP is far left, PvdA is more Labour)

(though these did not 'split' from each other mostly)

That is a far better system than what we have in the UK, Imho. You're more likely to find someone you actually want to vote for.

[Vassenor]

Cool. Cite it.

Also don't make assumptions about my views like that just to fit your narratives. Unless you're also prepared to present evidence of me actually saying anti-semitic things.

friends with anti-semitic terrorists

I'm not making assumptions, but for Jews in this country, anti-semitism is on display so much we can make out subtle anti-semitism with ease. You're trying to justify anti-semitism, you're enabling anti-semites, but the idea of publicly being called an anti-semite is revolting to you.

So basically by not automatically agreeing with you. Got it.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Cool. Cite it.

Also don't make assumptions about my views like that just to fit your narratives. Unless you're also prepared to present evidence of me actually saying anti-semitic things.

friends with anti-semitic terrorists

I'm not making assumptions, but for Jews in this country, anti-semitism is on display so much we can make out subtle anti-semitism with ease. You're trying to justify anti-semitism, you're enabling anti-semites, but the idea of publicly being called an anti-semite is revolting to you.

I think lots of groups have lots of things in common, the one you are pushing for may not be it.