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UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

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If a general election were held today who would you vote for?

Conservatives
117
16%
Labour
224
30%
Liberal Democrats
127
17%
Greens
37
5%
UKIP
134
18%
SNP
26
4%
Plaid Cymru
6
1%
Sinn Fein/SDLP
26
4%
DUP/UUP
12
2%
Other
33
4%
 
Total votes : 742

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Philjia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Philjia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:42 am

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Captain Planet. They had a Northern Ireland episode. You should look it up, they portray Norn Iron as a blasted hellscape of smouldering rubble, with both Catholics and Protestants having nuclear bombs. The day is saved when an American tells everyone to stop fighting.

Did it end with a fucking zoom out of everyone clapping hands and patting each other on the back whilst wonder yank stands with a stupid fucking grin on his face with a thumbs up?

I found a clip. This is a whole lot less metaphorical than I thought it would be.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:43 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Did it end with a fucking zoom out of everyone clapping hands and patting each other on the back whilst wonder yank stands with a stupid fucking grin on his face with a thumbs up?

I don't remember, but that sounds plausible.

And the moral of the story is...America solves all problems!

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:44 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Because more than likely y’all are cruising towards a no deal Brexit which is going to severely break the GFA. Many in NI are starting to view unification with the ROI as a better alternative than the troubles 2.0.


Who are "many in NI"?

Politics in NI is still incredibly tribal, and you're not going to get Protestants to vote for independence.

Moreover, studies from the Scottish independence referendum shows non-nationals, especially the Indian and Polish minorities which make up 4% of Scotland, voted to remain in the UK at larger proportions than even those born in England who moved to Scotland.

About 52% to 48% according to recent polls are for unification. That’s going to go through the roof when a hard border because of a no deal Brexit takes place.

Thermodolia wrote:So it’s highly likely that a United Ireland will exist by 2030, if no deal is reached.


/y

See above. It’s not my fault that you want to not believe reality.

Thermodolia wrote:You do realize that the majority of y’all oil falls In Scottish hands right?


No it doesn't

One of the very few great things that Tony Blair has done is officially move the English sea border upwards to the median line, wherein the English sea border is as far north as to be level with Dundee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_ ... Order_1999

Oh that’s cute it thinks the National laws of the oppresser means shit when the oppressed are liberated. Hint it doesn’t. In the event of a independent Scotland the sea border would start at the current Scottish land border

Also the UK has no moral or legal obligation to include "Scotland" as its own administrative definition of Scotland. Orkney and Shetland (which hold Scottish oil EEZ) never wanted to be part of Scotland, voted against devolution for Scotland twice, and voted 2 to 1 against for independence while the country itself was just within a 5% margin. The UK might as well legislate Orkney and Shetland to be their own administrative zone, and end theoretical Scottish jurisdiction. The same can be done to the Scottish Borders areas and maybe even Galloway. These places overwhelmingly voted against Scottish devolution and independence at every step, and refuse to vote for SNP. There's a moral case for separating them from Scotland.

You’re going to be irrelevant after a no deal Brexit so what you say doesn’t matter.

Sea borders are largely bilateral and there's thousands of border disputes around the world to this day, not just in China but even in places like Japan, Norway, Turkey, Poland, Spain, Italy, Croatia, Bulgaria and hundreds of other countries. Scotland is at the whim of whatever England wants to offer it. The current official border of jurisdiction cuts almost exactly halfway between the biggest oil field for England/Scotland. The Netherlands - Britain EEZ border displays this perfectly. The UK also gave up a lot of EEZ area to Norway (with the most oil) in exchange for NATO commitments.

(Image)

Your own map shows that the majority of the North Sea oil would fall under Scottish hands. The EU, NATO, and others aren’t going to let you keep it.

Thermodolia wrote:You are going to have so much fun in a post no deal Brexit world. Scotland and NI are going to bugger off,


NI won't, but okay.

It’s okay love. I know accepting reality is hard.

Thermodolia wrote: the Queen is probably die of a old age soon, when she does kick the bucket Australia is going to become a republic,


Unlikely, but I don't think there's a reason to care. 48% of Australians still support the monarchy to 40% against, but, a bigger problem would be finding the monarchy a new place to live because the biggest problem they'll have is in the UK not abroad, because Prince Charles is about as unliked as you can get for a public figure.

That 8% is there because of Liz. Without her Australia will become a republic. Further reducing the relevancy of the UK.

Thermodolia wrote:A no deal Brexit is pretty much the end of the UK as a political entity.


Okay?

Without Scotland still bigger than France, luls.

You really are in fantasy land. France is almost 3x the size of the United Kingdom with Scotland. Without Scotland France goes to being 4x your size. And let’s not even talk about the state of the UK economy. France and India are going to surpass the UK this year.
Last edited by Thermodolia on Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Far Easter Republic » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:48 am

In Pick Your Own Brexit, it's possible to make an endless loop.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:49 am

Far Easter Republic wrote:In Pick Your Own Brexit, it's possible to make an endless loop.

I did that for about 73 steps before saying fuck it and went no deal
Male, centrist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, loves dogs particularly German Shepherds, give me any good Irish or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY!
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
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Trumptonium1
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:54 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:Also the UK has no moral or legal obligation to include "Scotland" as its own administrative definition of Scotland. Orkney and Shetland (which hold Scottish oil EEZ) never wanted to be part of Scotland, voted against devolution for Scotland twice, and voted 2 to 1 against for independence while the country itself was just within a 5% margin. The UK might as well legislate Orkney and Shetland to be their own administrative zone, and end theoretical Scottish jurisdiction. The same can be done to the Scottish Borders areas and maybe even Galloway. These places overwhelmingly voted against Scottish devolution and independence at every step, and refuse to vote for SNP. There's a moral case for separating them from Scotland.


Further to my point, I do believe that it is time to reconsider the constitutional status of Orkney and the Shetland Islands. These two areas have never been historically 'Scottish', they have never had a history of using Scots language, they are not ethnically Scottish, they have always voted against Scottish parliament/devolution and most recently against independence, and they have also never elected members of the Scottish National Party to Westminster or to local positions.

This pertains to the same notion in Spanish nationalist circles that Tabarnia should be officially separated from the Autonomous Community of Catalonia, and declared its own region or part of Spain federal. The city of Barcelona and its region, as well as coastal regions to the south, do not speak Catalan, they are overwhelmingly pro-Spain and they voted overwhelmingly against pro-independence parties at Spanish general elections.
ImageImage


The principle is the same. Not only is the city of Barcelona the economic powerhouse of "the economic powerhouse of Catalonia", but Orkney and Shetland hold all of Scotland's claims to Scottish oil. Neither Barcelona/Tarragona nor Orkney and Shetland have ever displayed any support for Scottish independence whatsoever, and they have in fact sought to oppose it at every stage.

In the same way that it is immoral to 'hold' Scotland in the UK against their will, or to pull Scotland out of the EU against their will, it is immoral to pull the Scottish Borders and Orkney/Shetland out of Britain against their will. They found themselves within the region known as "Scotland" out of pure administrative convenience, and their lives may be thrown upside down despite their disapproval because they happen to be grouped with others they find alien.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitut ... tern_Isles

The Liberal Democrat member of the Scottish Parliament for Shetland has campaigned for a second referendum on Orkney and Shetland if the Scottish mainland should vote to leave, so that Orkney and Shetland can decide whether to leave together with Scotland or to stay with the UK. Since then several campaigns have been launched to call for a referendum on whether Orkney and Shetland should leave Scotland

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-scotl ... FV20140324

Next time the Scottish independence debate comes up with some actual plans, the British government and the Conservative Party should fully support the will of the people of Orkney and Shetland to reconsider their place within what we know as "Scotland," and secure Britain's oil and citizens.

To oppose the notion of Orkney and Shetland being able to self-determine their future, is to oppose the principle of self-determination, and thus throw the whole Scotland thing in the bin. Pro-independence people can either start debunking their own arguments ironically or accept the reality that one, the oil is not theirs, and two, many regions in Scotland don't agree with being pulled out against their will to satisfy kilts in the Highlands and Ne'er-do-well chavs in Glasgow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Scot ... referendum

FREEDOM FOR ORCADIANS AND SHETLANDERS FROM SCOT OPPRESSION
Last edited by Trumptonium1 on Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:55 am

Far Easter Republic wrote:In Pick Your Own Brexit, it's possible to make an endless loop.


That seems to be where we are in real life.

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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:59 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Far Easter Republic wrote:In Pick Your Own Brexit, it's possible to make an endless loop.


That seems to be where we are in real life.

All of this has happened before.

And all of this will happen again.

Again.

Again.

Again.
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Trumptonium1
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:01 pm

Thermodolia wrote:Your own map shows that the majority of the North Sea oil would fall under Scottish hands. The EU, NATO, and others aren’t going to let you keep it.


kiss my nukes
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:03 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:Also the UK has no moral or legal obligation to include "Scotland" as its own administrative definition of Scotland. Orkney and Shetland (which hold Scottish oil EEZ) never wanted to be part of Scotland, voted against devolution for Scotland twice, and voted 2 to 1 against for independence while the country itself was just within a 5% margin. The UK might as well legislate Orkney and Shetland to be their own administrative zone, and end theoretical Scottish jurisdiction. The same can be done to the Scottish Borders areas and maybe even Galloway. These places overwhelmingly voted against Scottish devolution and independence at every step, and refuse to vote for SNP. There's a moral case for separating them from Scotland.


Further to my point, I do believe that it is time to reconsider the constitutional status of Orkney and the Shetland Islands. These two areas have never been historically 'Scottish', they have never had a history of using Scots language, they are not ethnically Scottish, they have always voted against Scottish parliament/devolution and most recently against independence, and they have also never elected members of the Scottish National Party to Westminster or to local positions.

This pertains to the same notion in Spanish nationalist circles that Tabarnia should be officially separated from the Autonomous Community of Catalonia, and declared its own region or part of Spain federal. The city of Barcelona and its region, as well as coastal regions to the south, do not speak Catalan, they are overwhelmingly pro-Spain and they voted overwhelmingly against pro-independence parties at Spanish general elections.
ImageImage


The principle is the same. Not only is the city of Barcelona the economic powerhouse of "the economic powerhouse of Catalonia", but Orkney and Shetland hold all of Scotland's claims to Scottish oil. Neither Barcelona/Tarragona nor Orkney and Shetland have ever displayed any support for Scottish independence whatsoever, and they have in fact sought to oppose it at every stage.

In the same way that it is immoral to 'hold' Scotland in the UK against their will, or to pull Scotland out of the EU against their will, it is immoral to pull the Scottish Borders and Orkney/Shetland out of Britain against their will. They found themselves within the region known as "Scotland" out of pure administrative convenience, and their lives may be thrown upside down despite their disapproval because they happen to be grouped with others they find alien.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitut ... tern_Isles

The Liberal Democrat member of the Scottish Parliament for Shetland has campaigned for a second referendum on Orkney and Shetland if the Scottish mainland should vote to leave, so that Orkney and Shetland can decide whether to leave together with Scotland or to stay with the UK. Since then several campaigns have been launched to call for a referendum on whether Orkney and Shetland should leave Scotland

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-scotl ... FV20140324

Next time the Scottish independence debate comes up with some actual plans, the British government and the Conservative Party should fully support the will of the people of Orkney and Shetland to reconsider their place within what we know as "Scotland," and secure Britain's oil and citizens.

To oppose the notion of Orkney and Shetland being able to self-determine their future, is to oppose the principle of self-determination, and thus throw the whole Scotland thing in the bin. Pro-independence people can either start debunking their own arguments ironically or accept the reality that one, the oil is not theirs, and two, many regions in Scotland don't agree with being pulled out against their will to satisfy kilts in the Highlands and Ne'er-do-well chavs in Glasgow.

And yet you think that the entire UK should leave the UK because you’re side won. You don’t care about anything but your side
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Trumptonium1
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:03 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
Further to my point, I do believe that it is time to reconsider the constitutional status of Orkney and the Shetland Islands. These two areas have never been historically 'Scottish', they have never had a history of using Scots language, they are not ethnically Scottish, they have always voted against Scottish parliament/devolution and most recently against independence, and they have also never elected members of the Scottish National Party to Westminster or to local positions.

This pertains to the same notion in Spanish nationalist circles that Tabarnia should be officially separated from the Autonomous Community of Catalonia, and declared its own region or part of Spain federal. The city of Barcelona and its region, as well as coastal regions to the south, do not speak Catalan, they are overwhelmingly pro-Spain and they voted overwhelmingly against pro-independence parties at Spanish general elections.
ImageImage


The principle is the same. Not only is the city of Barcelona the economic powerhouse of "the economic powerhouse of Catalonia", but Orkney and Shetland hold all of Scotland's claims to Scottish oil. Neither Barcelona/Tarragona nor Orkney and Shetland have ever displayed any support for Scottish independence whatsoever, and they have in fact sought to oppose it at every stage.

In the same way that it is immoral to 'hold' Scotland in the UK against their will, or to pull Scotland out of the EU against their will, it is immoral to pull the Scottish Borders and Orkney/Shetland out of Britain against their will. They found themselves within the region known as "Scotland" out of pure administrative convenience, and their lives may be thrown upside down despite their disapproval because they happen to be grouped with others they find alien.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitut ... tern_Isles

The Liberal Democrat member of the Scottish Parliament for Shetland has campaigned for a second referendum on Orkney and Shetland if the Scottish mainland should vote to leave, so that Orkney and Shetland can decide whether to leave together with Scotland or to stay with the UK. Since then several campaigns have been launched to call for a referendum on whether Orkney and Shetland should leave Scotland

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-scotl ... FV20140324

Next time the Scottish independence debate comes up with some actual plans, the British government and the Conservative Party should fully support the will of the people of Orkney and Shetland to reconsider their place within what we know as "Scotland," and secure Britain's oil and citizens.

To oppose the notion of Orkney and Shetland being able to self-determine their future, is to oppose the principle of self-determination, and thus throw the whole Scotland thing in the bin. Pro-independence people can either start debunking their own arguments ironically or accept the reality that one, the oil is not theirs, and two, many regions in Scotland don't agree with being pulled out against their will to satisfy kilts in the Highlands and Ne'er-do-well chavs in Glasgow.

And yet you think that the entire UK should leave the UK because you’re side won. You don’t care about anything but your side


Do I?

Scotland is free to leave if they want. But without the parts that don't want to join them in the venture.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:04 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Your own map shows that the majority of the North Sea oil would fall under Scottish hands. The EU, NATO, and others aren’t going to let you keep it.


kiss my nukes

Hahahahaha hahahaha hahahahaha.

France alone can nuke the UK into oblivion several 100 times over. The UK hardly has any nukes available.

Oh and do I have to remind you that in the event of an independent Scotland you couldn’t use your sub base in Scotland and would have to move those subs to England where they also aren’t wanted. Oh well
Last edited by Thermodolia on Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:07 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Your own map shows that the majority of the North Sea oil would fall under Scottish hands. The EU, NATO, and others aren’t going to let you keep it.


kiss my nukes

The nukes you keep in Scotland?
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:09 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
kiss my nukes

The nukes you keep in Scotland?

England as Scotland’s bitch would sure be an interesting turn of events.
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:13 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
kiss my nukes

The nukes you keep in Scotland?


The town of Faslane can have an independence referendum from Scotland. I'm sure they'll vote for their only employer.
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Postby The blAAtschApen » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:16 pm

Ifreann wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:....... avatar reference?

Captain Planet. They had a Northern Ireland episode. You should look it up, they portray Norn Iron as a blasted hellscape of smouldering rubble, with both Catholics and Protestants having nuclear bombs. The day is saved when an American tells everyone to stop fighting.


They've cleared up then. When I was there in 2017 it did not look like that at all.
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Postby Kavagrad » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:41 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The nukes you keep in Scotland?


The town of Faslane can have an independence referendum from Scotland. I'm sure they'll vote for their only employer.

They can have a referendum. They won’t, but they can.
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Postby The New California Republic » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:45 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:Scotland is free to leave if they want. But without the parts that don't want to join them in the venture.

After the referendum I actually made a joke that places that voted for independence like Dundee and Glasgow and the like should be cut loose, to see how they fare being independent. :lol2:
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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:48 pm

Philjia wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Did it end with a fucking zoom out of everyone clapping hands and patting each other on the back whilst wonder yank stands with a stupid fucking grin on his face with a thumbs up?

I found a clip. This is a whole lot less metaphorical than I thought it would be.

Fucking christ.
Scary Spooky Red Mans! Ohhhh! An Atheist Irishman from Belfast Egalitarian Loyal to Dragonstone

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The New California Republic
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11908
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:52 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
Philjia wrote:I found a clip. This is a whole lot less metaphorical than I thought it would be.

Fucking christ.

That is fucking hilarious.

I have an ex whose father was a UVF commander. No joke.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Trumptonium1
Senator
 
Posts: 3963
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Trumptonium1 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:21 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:Scotland is free to leave if they want. But without the parts that don't want to join them in the venture.

After the referendum I actually made a joke that places that voted for independence like Dundee and Glasgow and the like should be cut loose, to see how they fare being independent. :lol2:


Whiskey. And bootlegged whiskey. The backbone of the Glaswegian powerhouse.
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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54789
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:29 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
a minimalist withdrawal agreement is, in itself, a deal. and needless to say a transition deal is also a deal. no deal means dropping out without any agreement made with the EU regarding our relationship post-brexit, including a withdrawal agreement or transition deal. so what i'm reading here is that you yourself obviously know that no deal is a terrible idea which is why you support your "managed no deal" instead of just no deal, and that your "managed no deal" is in fact a deal. this makes half of our previous conversations worthless.

e: and of course, it's hard to come up with a withdrawal agreement regarding supplies and travel without figuring out how northern ireland is going to be handled...


When people talk about a deal they are talking about having a relationship with the EU, free trade or further.

I am not advocating that at all. I am simply advocating managing Calais and supplies, and that's it. That's not a deal. That's not a transition deal either.

Kindly stop chatting shit.

Anyone who wants "a deal" wants "a deal", whatever their motivations are. Less Brexit, moire Brexit, whatever. Your "managed no deal" is a fucking deal - go away.
Warning! This poster has:
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
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Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

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Greater vakolicci haven
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9860
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:39 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
When people talk about a deal they are talking about having a relationship with the EU, free trade or further.

I am not advocating that at all. I am simply advocating managing Calais and supplies, and that's it. That's not a deal. That's not a transition deal either.

Kindly stop chatting shit.

Anyone who wants "a deal" wants "a deal", whatever their motivations are. Less Brexit, moire Brexit, whatever. Your "managed no deal" is a fucking deal - go away.

It seems what he wants is several agreements covering specific issues, rather than a formalised 'deal.'

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 16291
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:44 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Kindly stop chatting shit.

Anyone who wants "a deal" wants "a deal", whatever their motivations are. Less Brexit, moire Brexit, whatever. Your "managed no deal" is a fucking deal - go away.

It seems what he wants is several agreements covering specific issues, rather than a formalised 'deal.'

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... glish/deal
Deal noun (AGREEMENT):
an agreement or an arrangement, especially in business:

a business deal
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