Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:23 pmI am hoping for a hard Brexit.
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UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:23 pmPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:14 pmNorthern Irish police report a suspected car bomb.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:16 pmAn Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Northern Irish police report a suspected car bomb.
Bombs are reported here all the time
This one is at a court house in Derry for those wondering
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:31 pmPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:11 pmVallermoore wrote:I am hoping for a hard Brexit.
So you support more examples of that sort of terrorism then?
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:31 pmPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:44 pmVallermoore wrote:I am hoping for a hard Brexit.
Be careful with the terminology here. There are already people trying to label the withdrawal agreement that May's government negotiated a 'Soft Brexit'. But it's nothing of the sort. A soft Brexit would mean remaining in the Single Market, so something like Norway's relationship with the EU. That was dismissed very early on as May and co bought into the explanation of the vote as being about immigration, and so Free Movement had to go.
The withdrawal agreement is 'Hard Brexit', with a transition period on the economic side to make the imposition of trade barriers less disruptive. The end state is a UK out of the Single Market, eligible for none of the Four Freedoms and out of any and all EU rules and regulations. But, much like has happened with messianic movements throughout history, the Brexiteers have gradually lurched towards more and more extreme positions, so as to avoid being accused of collaboration with the dreaded 'remain' enemy. Ideological purity must come first, so now people are trying to label a transition period 'soft'.
So the 'hard' vs 'soft' debate is long gone. It might come back, if Labour can get the numbers. But as of right now, 'hard' is the only version available.
A better split would be between a 'clean' Brexit, which is what the withdrawal agreement represents. That's where everyone knows what's happening and is given time to prepare - and after the transition period is over, the UK and EU can work together as partners. Without a withdrawal agreement you get a 'dirty' Brexit, which is where no one has a clue what happens next, there is just disruption as the myriad of international rules and agreements are all torn up at once and businesses don't know what they can and can't do anymore, and which will make working with the EU on anything, from future free trade agreements to security to foreign policy, much more difficult because of all the bad blood it causes.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:46 pmVassenor wrote:Trumptonium1 wrote:
A wonderful question - let's ask all the remainers on here if they would want to quit the EU and switch to EEA or Turkish customs union model if they won by 52%?
At the end of the day, you have to listen to everyone not the will of the 52%, right?
So the only response you have to offer is reductio ad absurdam.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:47 pmSorry, was there a point you were trying to make in that poorly thought out attempt at a gotcha, or are you still being willfully blind to the potential effects that your preferred Brexit can have on the GFA?
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:27 pmPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:32 pmNeu Leonstein wrote:Vallermoore wrote:I am hoping for a hard Brexit.
Be careful with the terminology here. There are already people trying to label the withdrawal agreement that May's government negotiated a 'Soft Brexit'. But it's nothing of the sort. A soft Brexit would mean remaining in the Single Market, so something like Norway's relationship with the EU. That was dismissed very early on as May and co bought into the explanation of the vote as being about immigration, and so Free Movement had to go.
The withdrawal agreement is 'Hard Brexit', with a transition period on the economic side to make the imposition of trade barriers less disruptive. The end state is a UK out of the Single Market, eligible for none of the Four Freedoms and out of any and all EU rules and regulations. But, much like has happened with messianic movements throughout history, the Brexiteers have gradually lurched towards more and more extreme positions, so as to avoid being accused of collaboration with the dreaded 'remain' enemy. Ideological purity must come first, so now people are trying to label a transition period 'soft'.
So the 'hard' vs 'soft' debate is long gone. It might come back, if Labour can get the numbers. But as of right now, 'hard' is the only version available.
A better split would be between a 'clean' Brexit, which is what the withdrawal agreement represents. That's where everyone knows what's happening and is given time to prepare - and after the transition period is over, the UK and EU can work together as partners. Without a withdrawal agreement you get a 'dirty' Brexit, which is where no one has a clue what happens next, there is just disruption as the myriad of international rules and agreements are all torn up at once and businesses don't know what they can and can't do anymore, and which will make working with the EU on anything, from future free trade agreements to security to foreign policy, much more difficult because of all the bad blood it causes.
Ii think the deal would have a very good chance of passing were it not for the backstop arrangement.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:17 pmFar Easter Republic wrote:Try this:https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-pick-your-own-brexit/
The U.K. is leaving the EU without any deal at all. Brexiteers raise glasses of English sparkling wine and wave union jacks. Businesses activate emergency plans. Ministers and civil servants scramble to reach side deals with their EU counterparts to keep things functioning. Will it be a chaos of food shortages and grounded flights, as some warned, or will those prove to be laughable scare stories?
— The End —
Cheers! You made it through in 43 steps
Took me 3 elections though, which is nice. Sounds about right as to the number of 180's the conservative party needs to do to find someone half-competent at this point.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:26 pmTrumptonium1 wrote:Far Easter Republic wrote:Try this:https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-pick-your-own-brexit/
The U.K. is leaving the EU without any deal at all. Brexiteers raise glasses of English sparkling wine and wave union jacks. Businesses activate emergency plans. Ministers and civil servants scramble to reach side deals with their EU counterparts to keep things functioning. Will it be a chaos of food shortages and grounded flights, as some warned, or will those prove to be laughable scare stories?
— The End —
Cheers! You made it through in 43 steps
Took me 3 elections though, which is nice. Sounds about right as to the number of 180's the conservative party needs to do to find someone half-competent at this point.
I drank a bottle of English "Champagne" over Christmas dinner this year. Not bad actually.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:38 pmGreater vakolicci haven wrote:Ii think the deal would have a very good chance of passing were it not for the backstop arrangement.
I honestly don't really get what the drama is. The UK government has said that it wants to respect the Good Friday Agreement. Pretty much all of Parliament is on board with this. And if you ask the people whether they want to risk bringing back The Troubles, I can't imagine that much enthusiasm either.
Maybe you aren't too worried about all that, and you speculate that the IRA is done for and the whole thing won't be so bad and you don't really care about the damage done to UK citizens in Northern Ireland. Fine, but clearly a fringe view that isn't behind Parliament's rejection of the agreement.
So if you do want the GFA to be maintained, you need to have a guarantee that there won't be a hard border in Northern Ireland. All the backstop does is ensure that there won't be one. While the transition period is going, there won't be one because Northern Ireland stays in the customs union. And that arrangement remains in place only until an alternative solution is found.
What does Parliament want instead? I have not seen anyone make an alternative proposal. The EU has said time and time again that they'd be up for anything that respects the GFA. But it needs to be rock-solid, so that people in Ireland can rely on it no matter what else happens. A political promise by the UK government that is not written down in a legally valid treaty is useless for that purpose - we all know that. A "time-limited backstop" is literally an oxymoron - it means that we don't know what will happen when that time runs out, so there is also no certainty. In two years, there hasn't been anyone putting together a workable alternative.
Parliament being unhappy with the backstop at this point is about as reasonable as a three-year old screaming their lungs out, rolling around isle 3 at Tesco.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:52 pmNeu Leonstein wrote:Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Ii think the deal would have a very good chance of passing were it not for the backstop arrangement.
I honestly don't really get what the drama is. The UK government has said that it wants to respect the Good Friday Agreement. Pretty much all of Parliament is on board with this. And if you ask the people whether they want to risk bringing back The Troubles, I can't imagine that much enthusiasm either.
Maybe you aren't too worried about all that, and you speculate that the IRA is done for and the whole thing won't be so bad and you don't really care about the damage done to UK citizens in Northern Ireland. Fine, but clearly a fringe view that isn't behind Parliament's rejection of the agreement.
So if you do want the GFA to be maintained, you need to have a guarantee that there won't be a hard border in Northern Ireland. All the backstop does is ensure that there won't be one. While the transition period is going, there won't be one because Northern Ireland stays in the customs union. And that arrangement remains in place only until an alternative solution is found.
What does Parliament want instead? I have not seen anyone make an alternative proposal. The EU has said time and time again that they'd be up for anything that respects the GFA. But it needs to be rock-solid, so that people in Ireland can rely on it no matter what else happens. A political promise by the UK government that is not written down in a legally valid treaty is useless for that purpose - we all know that. A "time-limited backstop" is literally an oxymoron - it means that we don't know what will happen when that time runs out, so there is also no certainty. In two years, there hasn't been anyone putting together a workable alternative.
Parliament being unhappy with the backstop at this point is about as reasonable as a three-year old screaming their lungs out, rolling around isle 3 at Tesco.
My alternative is irish unification and send the DUP to a little island somewhere where they can't do anybody any harm.
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:09 pmGreater vakolicci haven wrote:Neu Leonstein wrote:I honestly don't really get what the drama is. The UK government has said that it wants to respect the Good Friday Agreement. Pretty much all of Parliament is on board with this. And if you ask the people whether they want to risk bringing back The Troubles, I can't imagine that much enthusiasm either.
Maybe you aren't too worried about all that, and you speculate that the IRA is done for and the whole thing won't be so bad and you don't really care about the damage done to UK citizens in Northern Ireland. Fine, but clearly a fringe view that isn't behind Parliament's rejection of the agreement.
So if you do want the GFA to be maintained, you need to have a guarantee that there won't be a hard border in Northern Ireland. All the backstop does is ensure that there won't be one. While the transition period is going, there won't be one because Northern Ireland stays in the customs union. And that arrangement remains in place only until an alternative solution is found.
What does Parliament want instead? I have not seen anyone make an alternative proposal. The EU has said time and time again that they'd be up for anything that respects the GFA. But it needs to be rock-solid, so that people in Ireland can rely on it no matter what else happens. A political promise by the UK government that is not written down in a legally valid treaty is useless for that purpose - we all know that. A "time-limited backstop" is literally an oxymoron - it means that we don't know what will happen when that time runs out, so there is also no certainty. In two years, there hasn't been anyone putting together a workable alternative.
Parliament being unhappy with the backstop at this point is about as reasonable as a three-year old screaming their lungs out, rolling around isle 3 at Tesco.
My alternative is irish unification and send the DUP to a little island somewhere where they can't do anybody any harm.
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:43 amBanish the Duppies to the Falklands.
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:07 amAn Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Banish the Duppies to the Falklands.
Proper Bretish lond for proper brets so it is
Also i second this.
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 amFar Easter Republic wrote:Try this:https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-pick-your-own-brexit/
Got a soft brexit in 11
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:43 amTrumptonium1 wrote:Far Easter Republic wrote:Try this:https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-pick-your-own-brexit/
The U.K. is leaving the EU without any deal at all. Brexiteers raise glasses of English sparkling wine and wave union jacks. Businesses activate emergency plans. Ministers and civil servants scramble to reach side deals with their EU counterparts to keep things functioning. Will it be a chaos of food shortages and grounded flights, as some warned, or will those prove to be laughable scare stories?
— The End —
Cheers! You made it through in 43 steps
Took me 3 elections though, which is nice. Sounds about right as to the number of 180's the conservative party needs to do to find someone half-competent at this point.
Does it show you NI fucking off to join ROI or Scotland saying feck you?
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:48 amThermodolia wrote:Trumptonium1 wrote:
The U.K. is leaving the EU without any deal at all. Brexiteers raise glasses of English sparkling wine and wave union jacks. Businesses activate emergency plans. Ministers and civil servants scramble to reach side deals with their EU counterparts to keep things functioning. Will it be a chaos of food shortages and grounded flights, as some warned, or will those prove to be laughable scare stories?
— The End —
Cheers! You made it through in 43 steps
Took me 3 elections though, which is nice. Sounds about right as to the number of 180's the conservative party needs to do to find someone half-competent at this point.
Does it show you NI fucking off to join ROI or Scotland saying feck you?
I think we'd already established that this fantasy world involves the RoI quitting the EU too and remembering its place as rightful English clay.
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:00 amI find it interesting that the game seems to think a Labour victory in an election just solves everything - if they won an election it would probably be very small majority or a minority government. There'd then be a split between soft Brexiters and outright remainers and it's not certain people wouldn't try a leadership challenge or no confidence.
Maybe Corbyn enrols Momentum members as armed auxiliary police and stops opponents from entering Parliament on voting day. Regardless of how arousing the prospect, there should likely be a screen or two more of steps.
Maybe Corbyn enrols Momentum members as armed auxiliary police and stops opponents from entering Parliament on voting day. Regardless of how arousing the prospect, there should likely be a screen or two more of steps.
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:08 amDumb Ideologies wrote:I find it interesting that the game seems to think a Labour victory in an election just solves everything - if they won an election it would probably be very small majority or a minority government. There'd then be a split between soft Brexiters and outright remainers and it's not certain people wouldn't try a leadership challenge or no confidence.
Maybe Corbyn enrols Momentum members as armed auxiliary police and stops opponents from entering Parliament on voting day.
Silly DI. Comrade Corbyn declared the United Socialist Republics of Britain. All is right in the world, unless you’re a Tory
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:05 amFar Easter Republic wrote:Try this:https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-pick-your-own-brexit/
Tried it twice.
Jeremy Corbyn became prime minister in 11 steps.
And a second referendum in 22 steps (which, amusingly, meant burning through 3 prime ministers... because blood for the blood god XD)
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:09 amChan Island wrote:Far Easter Republic wrote:Try this:https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-pick-your-own-brexit/
Tried it twice.
Jeremy Corbyn became prime minister in 11 steps.
And a second referendum in 22 steps (which, amusingly, meant burning through 3 prime ministers... because blood for the blood god XD)
I managed to get to second referendum in 20, so that's probably about average.