UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

[Ifreann]

And do you suppose that you could prevent that by trying to engage them in good faith debate and discussion? They're just going to use any platform to push their propaganda, not to engage with facts and reason. We're talking about people who want to purge the country of anyone different from them, reason is obviously not going to work.

The purpose is not to convince the hard core supporters of such views.
The purpose is to convince the more moderate people angry with the problems from trade and globalism that the people holding such views are looney.

And if you engage with fascists then you're just giving them an opportunity to win more people over to their genocidal cause. You can appeal politically to people who aren't fascists without engaging with fascists. You can explain why fascists are wrong without sharing a stage with them.

Vast numbers of Germans supported the Nazis not because they were all hardcore, convinced Nazis.
Rather the Nazis engaged in debate, (along with other, more violent tactics) and managed to convince them the alternative was worse.

"AMAZING Hitler DESTROYS liberal college students with FACTS and LOGIC"

The purpose is not to convince the lunatic fringe. The purpose is to convince the majority that the lunatic fringe is indeed, the lunatic fringe.

If you fail to respond, more moderate but perhaps less informed people will assume you are conceding. A failure to respond is widely regarded as an admission that you are wrong.

Or you respond with the awesome and terrible power of antifa super soldiers.

---

The purpose is not to convince the hard core supporters of such views.
The purpose is to convince the more moderate people angry with the problems from trade and globalism that the people holding such views are looney.

Vast numbers of Germans supported the Nazis not because they were all hardcore, convinced Nazis.
Rather the Nazis engaged in debate, (along with other, more violent tactics) and managed to convince them the alternative was worse.

The purpose is not to convince the lunatic fringe. The purpose is to convince the majority the lunatic fringe is indeed, the lunatic fringe.

If you fail to respond, more moderate but perhaps less informed people will assume you are conceding. A failure to respond is widely regarded as an admission that you are wrong.

Pretty much exactly this. The reason the far right is surging is that the tactics of the progressive left provide fertile ground for them.

Fascism is super-effective against liberalism. You can tell because your answer to people who want to put you in a camp and work you to death is to take their proposal to the free marketplace of ideas.

[Novus America]

The purpose is not to convince the hard core supporters of such views.
The purpose is to convince the more moderate people angry with the problems from trade and globalism that the people holding such views are looney.

And if you engage with fascists then you're just giving them an opportunity to win more people over to their genocidal cause. You can appeal politically to people who aren't fascists without engaging with fascists. You can explain why fascists are wrong without sharing a stage with them.

Vast numbers of Germans supported the Nazis not because they were all hardcore, convinced Nazis.
Rather the Nazis engaged in debate, (along with other, more violent tactics) and managed to convince them the alternative was worse.

"AMAZING Hitler DESTROYS liberal college students with FACTS and LOGIC"

The purpose is not to convince the lunatic fringe. The purpose is to convince the majority that the lunatic fringe is indeed, the lunatic fringe.

If you fail to respond, more moderate but perhaps less informed people will assume you are conceding. A failure to respond is widely regarded as an admission that you are wrong.

Or you respond with the awesome and terrible power of antifa super soldiers.

---

Pretty much exactly this. The reason the far right is surging is that the tactics of the progressive left provide fertile ground for them.

Fascism is super-effective against liberalism. You can tell because your answer to people who want to put you in a camp and work you to death is to take their proposal to the free marketplace of ideas.

You do not necessarily have to share a stage with them of course. But you have to point out the flaws in their ideas, not pretend they do not exist.

And ANTIFA is beyond counterproductive. You realized it started in Weimar Germany, how did that work out? ANTIFA wants to tear down the democratic state, not protect it.
ANTIFA gave the Nazis a massive boost.
They weakened the Weimer Government and scared the middle class right into the arms of the Nazis.
Not that ANTIFA are against labor camps for enemies either.

They both must be defeated.

The best argument the Alt Right has is the Ogre’s choice.
They will argue the decision is between them and the lunatic left.
ANTIFA only makes their argument stronger.

Besides the way to defeat the lunatic fringe is not by supporting the other lunatic fringe!

[Ostroeuropa]

And if you engage with fascists then you're just giving them an opportunity to win more people over to their genocidal cause. You can appeal politically to people who aren't fascists without engaging with fascists. You can explain why fascists are wrong without sharing a stage with them.


"AMAZING Hitler DESTROYS liberal college students with FACTS and LOGIC"


Or you respond with the awesome and terrible power of antifa super soldiers.

---

Fascism is super-effective against liberalism. You can tell because your answer to people who want to put you in a camp and work you to death is to take their proposal to the free marketplace of ideas.

You do not necessarily have to share a stage with them of course. But you have to point out the flaws in their ideas, not pretend they do not exist.

And ANTIFA is beyond counterproductive. You realized it started in Weimar Germany, how did that work out? ANTIFA wants to tear down the democratic state, not protect it.
ANTIFA gave the Nazis a massive boost.
Not that they are against labor camps for enemies either.

They both must be defeated.

The best argument the Alt Right has is the Ogre’s choice.
They will argume the decision is between them and the lunatic left.
ANTIFA only makes their argument stronger.

Besides the way to defeat the lunatic fringe is not by supporting the other lunatic fringe!

The problem is that both sides are acting like neoliberal extremist corporate capitalism is the middle ground when that's simply not the case. We're in the midst of a crisis of extreme fringe politics dominating the discussion thanks to the neoliberal capitalists and their shenanigans polarizing society so badly with their relentless gaslighting of the public.

[Novus America]

You do not necessarily have to share a stage with them of course. But you have to point out the flaws in their ideas, not pretend they do not exist.

And ANTIFA is beyond counterproductive. You realized it started in Weimar Germany, how did that work out? ANTIFA wants to tear down the democratic state, not protect it.
ANTIFA gave the Nazis a massive boost.
Not that they are against labor camps for enemies either.

They both must be defeated.

The best argument the Alt Right has is the Ogre’s choice.
They will argume the decision is between them and the lunatic left.
ANTIFA only makes their argument stronger.

Besides the way to defeat the lunatic fringe is not by supporting the other lunatic fringe!

The problem is that both sides are acting like neoliberal extremist corporate capitalism is the middle ground when that's simply not the case. We're in the midst of a crisis of extreme fringe politics dominating the discussion thanks to the neoliberal capitalists and their shenanigans polarizing society so badly with their relentless gaslighting of the public.

I absolutely agree. The failure of the current neoliberal order is forcing people to find alternatives. And if the lunatic fringe is the only alternative, that is where they go.

See Germany, Greece, etc.

Obviously the status quo will not fix the problems of the status quo.

[Ostroeuropa]

The problem is that both sides are acting like neoliberal extremist corporate capitalism is the middle ground when that's simply not the case. We're in the midst of a crisis of extreme fringe politics dominating the discussion thanks to the neoliberal capitalists and their shenanigans polarizing society so badly with their relentless gaslighting of the public.

I absolutely agree. The failure of the current neoliberal order is forcing people to find alternatives. And if the lunatic fringe is the only alternative, that is where they go.

See Germany, Greece, etc.

I disagree it is merely the failure. It is their warping of the discussion for their own ends to cast their extremism as moderation. They have spent decades screaming about how certain things belong to the right wing and certain things belong to the left wing and bullying and gaslighting everyone into accepting that categorization so that their corporate centralization of wealth and Liberalism goes unchallenged as a "Middle ground".

It's not a matter of "Capitalism failed, so let's turn to fascism and SJW/Marxist extremism". It's that the capitalists and the liberals have deliberately, maliciously, and actively cultivated those two camps and presented them as the only alternatives in order to cling to power.

[Novus America]

I absolutely agree. The failure of the current neoliberal order is forcing people to find alternatives. And if the lunatic fringe is the only alternative, that is where they go.

See Germany, Greece, etc.

I disagree it is merely the failure. It is their warping of the discussion for their own ends to cast their extremism as moderation. They have spent decades screaming about how certain things belong to the right wing and certain things belong to the left wing and bullying and gaslighting everyone into accepting that categorization so that their corporate centralization of wealth and Liberalism goes unchallenged as a "Middle ground".

It's not a matter of "Capitalism failed, so let's turn to fascism and SJW/Marxist extremism". It's that the capitalists and the liberals have deliberately, maliciously, and actively cultivated those two camps and presented them as the only alternatives in order to cling to power.

The best thing we could do as a society is accept that, destroy the neoliberals, the capitalists, dismantle their media and punish every single one of these profiteers and aristocrats so firmly that for a thousand years the rich will feel a spike of terror when they remember it.

Turn half over to the fascists and half to the left to do with as they please.

THEN we have a discussion. Because one is impossible to have until these people are dealt with. Their control of the media and our institutions has pushed us to the point where we are tolerating genocide for profit from the Sauds and others, where our own citizens are dying by the thousands every year under austerity, and so on and so on.

I have to disagree, I think we need a real alternative. A movement that tames neoliberal globalism but without destroying all we have built.

Because if you turn things over to the far left and far right, whoever wins we loose, the winner will turn on the rest of us.

[Ostroeuropa]

I have to disagree, I think we need a real alternative. A movement that tames neoliberal globalism but without destroying all we have built.

Because if you turn things over to the far left and far right, whoever wins we loose, the winner will turn on the rest of us.

We need a radical alternative that takes elements from both of the far left and far right where they have a point, or at least deals with their concerns.

Only half of conservative voters believe in private enterprise. Let that sink in. The public has had enough of capitalism. If it weren't for these progressives and their constant bullshit we'd have dealt with the aristocrats by now. People vote conservative for social reasons, not economic ones.

[Novus America]

I have to disagree, I think we need a real alternative. A movement that tames neoliberal globalism but without destroying all we have built.

Because if you turn things over to the far left and far right, whoever wins we loose, the winner will turn on the rest of us.

We need a radical alternative that takes elements from both of the far left and far right where they have a point, or at least deals with their concerns.

Only half of conservative voters believe in private enterprise. Let that sink in. The public has had enough of capitalism. If it weren't for these progressives and their constant bullshit we'd have dealt with the aristocrats by now. People vote conservative for social reasons, not economic ones.

I do agree we need an alternative that borrows the best from both the left and right, civic (not ethnic) nationalism combined with meeting the basic needs of people.

But the important thing to realize is that the current neoliberal globalist race to the bottom is not the only form that allows free enterprise.
After all it is in bed with Chinese and Saudi state owned enterprises.

Capitalism is a chaotic neutral. It is only as good or bad as the people controlling it.

Think of capitalism like a river.
The river may flood and kill you. But it also can provide irrigation, electricity and transportation.
If th river foods because it was deliberately diverted through your town, this is not the fault of the mindless river. But it absolutely is the fault of the people who decided to divert it through your town. Blame them, not the river.

[Ifreann]

And if you engage with fascists then you're just giving them an opportunity to win more people over to their genocidal cause. You can appeal politically to people who aren't fascists without engaging with fascists. You can explain why fascists are wrong without sharing a stage with them.


"AMAZING Hitler DESTROYS liberal college students with FACTS and LOGIC"


Or you respond with the awesome and terrible power of antifa super soldiers.

---

Fascism is super-effective against liberalism. You can tell because your answer to people who want to put you in a camp and work you to death is to take their proposal to the free marketplace of ideas.

You do not necessarily have to share a stage with them of course. But you have to point out the flaws in their ideas, not pretend they do not exist.

And ANTIFA is beyond counterproductive. You realized it started in Weimar Germany, how did that work out? ANTIFA wants to tear down the democratic state, not protect it.

Untrue.

[Novus America]

You do not necessarily have to share a stage with them of course. But you have to point out the flaws in their ideas, not pretend they do not exist.

And ANTIFA is beyond counterproductive. You realized it started in Weimar Germany, how did that work out? ANTIFA wants to tear down the democratic state, not protect it.

Untrue.

One propaganda piece says nothing.
And look at the flags!

Black flag for anarchism, red flag for communism and revolutionary socialism.
It is of course a coalition of left anarchists and Marxists of varying stripes, none of which support a democratic state.

Besides the only unifying ideology is the suppression by violence of those they deem “Fascist”.
Otherwise the sheer absurdity of Stalinists and Anarchists in the same group makes agreement impossible.

You cannot gaslight me while flying flags that openly state the intent!
I mean seriously.

[Trumptonium1]

The most striking part of former French finance minister & current IMF director's Christine Lagarde's interview which bashed Brexit while trying to talk down Britain becoming the highest growing G7 European economy is not the fact that she's able to pull mental gymnastics to achieve that, no - it's not even the fact that she openly admitted that the Eurozone has held back southern Europe into crisis and warned that the European project is at risk, no. Hell, it's not even the fact that she simultaneously somehow managed to say that the Europe is the problem and the answer is even more Europe. It's that she openly admitted that the most exposed entities to Italy and Greece are French banks.

I mean, it was an open secret. French banks are hilariously exposed to Italy in particular (300 billion) and Greece. But still. Funny to actually hear someone in the gravy train admit it for the first time. Shame she didn't link it to the bailouts that she criticised Britain for not participating in.



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... t#comments
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... w#comments

[Ifreann]

Untrue.

One propaganda piece says nothing.

Which you know, because you haven't watched it.

[Uiiop]

Untrue.

One propaganda piece says nothing.
And look at the flags!

Black flag for anarchism, red flag for communism and revolutionary socialism.
It is of course a coalition of left anarchists and Marxists of varying stripes, none of which support a democratic state.

Besides the only unifying ideology is the suppression by violence of those they deem “Fascist”.
Otherwise the sheer absurdity of Stalinists and Anarchists in the same group makes agreement impossible.

You cannot gaslight me while flying flags that openly state the intent!
I mean seriously.

It might not say anything but just saying "Propaganda! Dismissed!" ain't very good faith of you.
Neither is pointing at flag symbolism and forming an idea of an collation on something that's open to interpretation. Like the former it doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong but your argument is groundless as soon as someone brings up Albania and the Aosta valley.

If this and what you shown Ostro is supposed to be the caliber of anti-fascist debate i am not impressed. That would be overgeneralizing and dumb to assume as such tho.

[Trumptonium1]

Irish people suddenly realising EU throwing them under the bus.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/edit ... 18812.html

"In a no-deal scenario, Ireland would have to choose between setting up a physical Border with Northern Ireland and de facto leaving the single market. If there is no physical Border, the customs checks would have to take place on all goods coming [to the EU] from Ireland"

[Novus America]

One propaganda piece says nothing.
And look at the flags!

Black flag for anarchism, red flag for communism and revolutionary socialism.
It is of course a coalition of left anarchists and Marxists of varying stripes, none of which support a democratic state.

Besides the only unifying ideology is the suppression by violence of those they deem “Fascist”.
Otherwise the sheer absurdity of Stalinists and Anarchists in the same group makes agreement impossible.

You cannot gaslight me while flying flags that openly state the intent!
I mean seriously.

It might not say anything but just saying "Propaganda! Dismissed!" ain't very good faith of you.
Neither is pointing at flag symbolism and forming an idea of an collation on something that's open to interpretation. Like the former it doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong but your argument is groundless as soon as someone brings up Albania and the Aosta valley.

If this and what you shown Ostro is supposed to be the caliber of anti-fascist debate i am not impressed. That would be overgeneralizing and dumb to assume as such tho.

Umm, the flags are clearly not for Albania and clearly for anarchism and revolutionary socialism/communism.

Are you next going to tell me that the Nazi flags is used white nationalists are “open to interpretation and claiming they are Nazi is groundless because they might be Falun Gong”.

I mean come on. Are you really denying Marxist Leninists and Left Anarchists are in ANTIFA?

[Ifreann]

Irish people suddenly realising EU throwing them under the bus.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/edit ... 18812.html

"In a no-deal scenario, Ireland would have to choose between setting up a physical Border with Northern Ireland and de facto leaving the single market. If there is no physical Border, the customs checks would have to take place on all goods coming [to the EU] from Ireland"

Nah, we're pretty firmly blaming you lot.

[Uiiop]

It might not say anything but just saying "Propaganda! Dismissed!" ain't very good faith of you.
Neither is pointing at flag symbolism and forming an idea of an collation on something that's open to interpretation. Like the former it doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong but your argument is groundless as soon as someone brings up Albania and the Aosta valley.

If this and what you shown Ostro is supposed to be the caliber of anti-fascist debate i am not impressed. That would be overgeneralizing and dumb to assume as such tho.

Umm, the flags are clearly not for Albania and clearly for anarchism and revolutionary socialism/communism.

Are you next going to tell me that the Nazi flags is used white nationalists are “open to interpretation and claiming they are Nazi is groundless because they might be Hindus”.

I mean come on. Are you really denying Marxist Leninists and Left Anarchists are in ANTIFA?

No but there's a difference between saying they are there and saying they're (At least practically) all ANTIFA is.

Pointing at what colors/symbols are on something on a basic level doesn't tell you how clearly or not the ideologies of it's user. Sure in both cases you can certainty narrow the possibilities you can't get them down to "Unironic Hitler lover" and/or "Does not support a democratic state" .
The argumentation here seems akin to the whole "But they have Socialist in their name" that eqautes the two. Your counter examples of Hindus and Falun Gong count BTW but only because your descriptions are basic enough to forget that their swastikas are different in terms of design. About the same as the differences between the Antifa and the flags of it's brother now that i think of it

[Novus America]

Umm, the flags are clearly not for Albania and clearly for anarchism and revolutionary socialism/communism.

Are you next going to tell me that the Nazi flags is used white nationalists are “open to interpretation and claiming they are Nazi is groundless because they might be Hindus”.

I mean come on. Are you really denying Marxist Leninists and Left Anarchists are in ANTIFA?

No but there's a difference between saying they are there and saying they're (At least practically) all ANTIFA is.

Pointing at what colors/symbols are on something on a basic level doesn't tell you how clearly or not the ideologies of it's user. Sure in both cases you can certainty narrow the possibilities you can't get them down to "Unironic Hitler lover" and/or "Does not support a democratic state" . The argumentation here seems akin to the whole "But they have Socialist in their name" that eqautes the two so again; Not impressed.

People seriously using a Nazi flag obviously do not support a democratic state.
And obviously I am not going to trust that people flying a Nazi flag support a democratic state, even if they claim to not all be Nazis. Obviously the flag you choose does speak to your ideology.

And show me any source demonstrating ANTIFA is actually mostly center left social democrats.
As there are large numbers of left anarchists and Marxists in ANTIFA, so much so that the symbol of Antifa literally combines the flags used by said groups, clearly defending democracy is not ANTIFA’s priority. Moreover clearly a large amount of ANTIFA does not want a Democratic State.

Plus the whole burning banks and shit like that.

And with Hindus and Falun Gong we can say the alternative origin of the flags.
Where they came from, what the stand for, and the fact that said symbols predate Nazism.

So tell me then. What is the alternative explanation of the Antifa flags? Hmm?

[Ifreann]

As interesting as vexillology is, the topic is UK politics.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

It might not say anything but just saying "Propaganda! Dismissed!" ain't very good faith of you.
Neither is pointing at flag symbolism and forming an idea of an collation on something that's open to interpretation. Like the former it doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong but your argument is groundless as soon as someone brings up Albania and the Aosta valley.

If this and what you shown Ostro is supposed to be the caliber of anti-fascist debate i am not impressed. That would be overgeneralizing and dumb to assume as such tho.

Umm, the flags are clearly not for Albania and clearly for anarchism and revolutionary socialism/communism.

Are you next going to tell me that the Nazi flags is used white nationalists are “open to interpretation and claiming they are Nazi is groundless because they might be Falun Gong”.

I mean come on. Are you really denying Marxist Leninists and Left Anarchists are in ANTIFA?

I just watched a few seconds of the video, and the video states that left-anarchists and communists are in Antifa.

---

I'm not a mod, but I don't think antifa is the topic of this thread. Let's get back on topic.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Irish people suddenly realising EU throwing them under the bus.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/edit ... 18812.html

"In a no-deal scenario, Ireland would have to choose between setting up a physical Border with Northern Ireland and de facto leaving the single market. If there is no physical Border, the customs checks would have to take place on all goods coming [to the EU] from Ireland"

I still don't think that means that Ireland is going to turn on the EU. They very well might choose that hard border.

[Novus America]

Umm, the flags are clearly not for Albania and clearly for anarchism and revolutionary socialism/communism.

Are you next going to tell me that the Nazi flags is used white nationalists are “open to interpretation and claiming they are Nazi is groundless because they might be Falun Gong”.

I mean come on. Are you really denying Marxist Leninists and Left Anarchists are in ANTIFA?

I just watched a few seconds of the video, and the video states that left-anarchists and communists are in Antifa.

---

I'm not a mod, but I don't think antifa is the topic of this thread. Let's get back on topic.

Fair enough.
We should be discussing May and Corbyn’s Flying Circus.

[Ifreann]

Irish people suddenly realising EU throwing them under the bus.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/edit ... 18812.html

"In a no-deal scenario, Ireland would have to choose between setting up a physical Border with Northern Ireland and de facto leaving the single market. If there is no physical Border, the customs checks would have to take place on all goods coming [to the EU] from Ireland"

I still don't think that means that Ireland is going to turn on the EU. They very well might choose that hard border.

Only the UK can choose for there not to be a hard border.

[Uiiop]

Umm, the flags are clearly not for Albania and clearly for anarchism and revolutionary socialism/communism.

Are you next going to tell me that the Nazi flags is used white nationalists are “open to interpretation and claiming they are Nazi is groundless because they might be Falun Gong”.

I mean come on. Are you really denying Marxist Leninists and Left Anarchists are in ANTIFA?

I just watched a few seconds of the video, and the video states that left-anarchists and communists are in Antifa.

---

I'm not a mod, but I don't think antifa is the topic of this thread. Let's get back on topic.

*Grumbles* Fair i should circle back to the original point.
I don't really think anyone even in Novus's idea of Antifa actually disagrees with the idea that discussing(In a broad sense that includes rudely attacking) rather than being silent on issues is a good idea to deal with the political in the UK and abroad.
It just seems that everyone has a different idea on what actions and speech count as addressing it and silencing the conversation. Even centrists it seems can't quite agree on it.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I still don't think that means that Ireland is going to turn on the EU. They very well might choose that hard border.

Only the UK can choose for there not to be a hard border.

Either way, Ireland probably is not going to turn on the E.U. due to the support for it among the public. Trumptonium1 is still wrong, and we know that Ireland isn't going to leave the single market any time soon.