UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

[The Blaatschapen]

I agree. I think the we, US and the west, should use trade deals to inact change across the world. For example we should tell China that we aren’t going to trade with them until they get their act together on the environment and democracy.

I think we should use trade as a way to bring nations up to speed on civil, political, and worker’s rights and better care of the environment

bring nations up to speed, or twist their arms into doing what you've decided is right? if they started demanding you change your civil or political rights in exchange for trade deals and started using their economic clout and political inertia to attempt to force it on you you'd be absolutely seething. we can see this in practice - not a day goes by where someone in the UK does not scream to the heaven's about how the ECHR is tramping their sovereignty when it brings them "up to speed". but when it comes to the UK or canada declaring they've definitely got it right this time and yet again appointing themselves as the bastions of light who must enlighten the backwaters no one bats an eye, despite the fact we're still cleaning up the mess from the damage cause the last two times they did it. i am sick of reading about the constant bullshit the US has pushed and is still pushing onto the rest of the world, ourselves included, and i won't abide by continuing to allow them to do it. every paper i read has some "and then the west swung their chlorinated chicken around and pressured/forced everyone into going along with whatever great idea they had this time" section in it. but they'll keep doing it, they'll keep being successful, and we'll just have to hope that whatever they decide is their next great crusade doesn't turn out to be something we hate and will fuck us for centuries to come. "but we're right!", right?

but, maybe, just maybe, it might be tolerable if they just admitted that they are rabid cultural imperialists. but they won't.

I wonder how I can be an internationalist without being a cultural imperialist

[Salandriagado]

Also, US trade deals are fucking horrible things, used by the US to enforce their own bullshit laws on other countries.

Not really seeing the problem

"Use a trade deal to dismantle the NHS" is basically US policy.

[Salandriagado]

Me neither. Using your influence to change the world for ( at least in one's own vision) the better, is not wrong. It's pretty much "with great power comes great responsiblity" in action.

I agree. I think the we, US and the west, should use trade deals to inact change across the world. For example we should tell China that we aren’t going to trade with them until they get their act together on the environment and democracy.

I think we should use trade as a way to bring nations up to speed on civil, political, and worker’s rights and better care of the environment

If that was what they were doing, that would be a good thing. It isn't. What they're actually doing is enforcing US copyright law and corporate interests, at the expense of the rights of people in other countries (and of the environment).

[Trumptonium1]

Yes, a free trade agreement.

You know, the same one that was meant to be signed with countries other than the US itself. i.e. no special deal to the US

oh well then, i can't be fucked hunting for some tory politicians that have been slobbering over the US so i'll drop that specific point for now.

That's why nobody on the leave side understands what the squealing morons mean by "cHlOrInATeD cHicKEnS" as it's maximum strawman.

sorry, but i can't believe this. i have been reliably informed that leavers knew exactly what they were voting for and comprehensively understand all of the possible effects of brexit. therefore, they should know the US reputation for international predation and why people are worried that they might use our weak position to push food deregulation on us. i would also expect these scholars to be reading the news enough to know that chicken specifically has become a stand in for these concerns. so i'm not sure why you'd say they don't understand what people mean when they say it. they should understand it well and fine.

The UK has more stringent food regulations than the EU itself. It also has more stringent workers' rights - more time off than required (and always did), more maternity leave than required (and always did) and the bare minimum VAT on things like electricity and gas (because the EU doesn't allow to go below 5%) to protect the poor.

Of course people on the leave side don't understand it, because it's an invented issue designed to do nothing else than irrationally present Brexit as a negative thing -- project fear.

Any deregulation is a political choice.

Sure, I get it. You prefer to be in the EU to make sure that deregulation is not possible because you don't trust Conservative governments to not be tempted. Our arguments are broadly the same - yes, we do have a veto on an EU military and Turkish accession. But we prefer to leave to take those options off the table as we don't trust Labour governments to use it. C'est la vie.

[Trumptonium1]

Not really seeing the problem

"Use a trade deal to dismantle the NHS" is basically US policy.

Yes because the US has become well known for dismantling universal healthcare in Australia and Canada and Israel and pushing privatisation for American competitors to enter the market. /s

[Thermodolia]

I agree. I think the we, US and the west, should use trade deals to inact change across the world. For example we should tell China that we aren’t going to trade with them until they get their act together on the environment and democracy.

I think we should use trade as a way to bring nations up to speed on civil, political, and worker’s rights and better care of the environment

If that was what they were doing, that would be a good thing. It isn't. What they're actually doing is enforcing US copyright law and corporate interests, at the expense of the rights of people in other countries (and of the environment).

Well I’d definitely change that but overall it’s not a bad thing

[Puldania]

I can't hear you over all these extra pounds coming into the UK economy, speak louder

Now prove that all of that is happening because of Brexit and would not be happening if Brexit wasn't.

He can't, because according to Google, that image doesnt exist.

[Thermodolia]

I agree. I think the we, US and the west, should use trade deals to inact change across the world. For example we should tell China that we aren’t going to trade with them until they get their act together on the environment and democracy.

I think we should use trade as a way to bring nations up to speed on civil, political, and worker’s rights and better care of the environment

bring nations up to speed, or twist their arms into doing what you've decided is right? if they started demanding you change your civil or political rights in exchange for trade deals and started using their economic clout and political inertia to attempt to force it on you you'd be absolutely seething. we can see this in practice - not a day goes by where someone in the UK does not scream to the heaven's about how the ECHR is tramping their sovereignty when it brings them "up to speed". but when it comes to the UK or canada declaring they've definitely got it right this time and yet again appointing themselves as the bastions of light who must enlighten the backwaters no one bats an eye, despite the fact we're still cleaning up the mess from the damage cause the last two times they did it. i am sick of reading about the constant bullshit the US has pushed and is still pushing onto the rest of the world, ourselves included, and i won't abide by continuing to allow them to do it. every paper i read has some "and then the west swung their chlorinated chicken around and pressured/forced everyone into going along with whatever great idea they had this time" section in it. but they'll keep doing it, they'll keep being successful, and we'll just have to hope that whatever they decide is their next great crusade doesn't turn out to be something we hate and will fuck us for centuries to come. "but we're right!", right?

but, maybe, just maybe, it might be tolerable if they just admitted that they are rabid cultural imperialists. but they won't.

I really don’t see anything wrong with cultural imperialism. There are certain cultures that absolutely should be destroyed and shouldn’t exist. The Middle East seems to have a nasty culture of treating women and LGBT+ individuals like shit that’s something I will not stand for. Our, meaning the entire west, trade policy should be geared to bringing about a better more equal world.

Also I do think we should look at the shit practices our industrial meat complex uses to produce meat products. A lot of chickens are pretty much kept in their own filth, you shouldn’t have to use anything more than soap and water to clean most food products

[Thermodolia]

I agree. I think the we, US and the west, should use trade deals to inact change across the world. For example we should tell China that we aren’t going to trade with them until they get their act together on the environment and democracy.

I think we should use trade as a way to bring nations up to speed on civil, political, and worker’s rights and better care of the environment

Brexit is about a pivot to the east, trading WITH China and India, not bringing the UK closer to the US.

Literally nobody, not even the most ardent Brexiteers, wanted Brexit to result in a closer US-UK relationship. There was and is a lot of continued touting of CANZUK and perhaps free movement there, but that's not the US.

Hahahahaha. You might be the only one who’s advocated for that. India and the US are in agreement that there will be no free trade deal if a hard border with NI is in place.

[Trumptonium1]

Brexit is about a pivot to the east, trading WITH China and India, not bringing the UK closer to the US.

Literally nobody, not even the most ardent Brexiteers, wanted Brexit to result in a closer US-UK relationship. There was and is a lot of continued touting of CANZUK and perhaps free movement there, but that's not the US.

Hahahahaha. You might be the only one who’s advocated for that. India and the US are in agreement that there will be no free trade deal if a hard border with NI is in place.

the fuck are you on about

[Thermodolia]

Hahahahaha. You might be the only one who’s advocated for that. India and the US are in agreement that there will be no free trade deal if a hard border with NI is in place.

the fuck are you on about

The UK isnt going to get good trade deals with the east or with CANZAC. Russia doesn’t give a shit about the UK, China wants trade deals to benefit them and the India, Canada, and others are following the US lead in no free trade deal unless there’s no hard border in Ireland

[Trumptonium1]

the fuck are you on about

The UK isnt going to get good trade deals with the east or with CANZAC. Russia doesn’t give a shit about the UK, China wants trade deals to benefit them and the India, Canada, and others are following the US lead in no free trade deal unless there’s no hard border in Ireland

india and canada have said absolutely nothing about a hard border in ireland and canada has already signed a letter of intent (along with new zealand norway iceland saudi arabia and south korea) for a trade deal with the UK

so take your fake news elsewhere, back to america

[Thermodolia]

The UK isnt going to get good trade deals with the east or with CANZAC. Russia doesn’t give a shit about the UK, China wants trade deals to benefit them and the India, Canada, and others are following the US lead in no free trade deal unless there’s no hard border in Ireland

india and canada have said absolutely nothing about a hard border in ireland and canada has already signed a letter of intent (along with new zealand norway iceland saudi arabia and south korea) for a trade deal with the UK

so take your fake news elsewhere, back to america

Um India definitely has said that a trade deal with the UK must require no border with Ireland. It was mentioned in this thread several pages ago. Call it fake news if you want but it will just like an ostrich sticking it’s head in the ground.

Plus all of those outside of probably KSA are probably going to have their trade deals be contingent on no hard border. Also Norway and Iceland are apart of the EAA and must abide by EU trade rules.

[Ifreann]

india and canada have said absolutely nothing about a hard border in ireland and canada has already signed a letter of intent (along with new zealand norway iceland saudi arabia and south korea) for a trade deal with the UK

so take your fake news elsewhere, back to america

Um India definitely has said that a trade deal with the UK must require no border with Ireland. It was mentioned in this thread several pages ago. Call it fake news if you want but it will just like an ostrich sticking it’s head in the ground.

Plus all of those outside of probably KSA are probably going to have their trade deals be contingent on no hard border. Also Norway and Iceland are apart of the EAA and must abide by EU trade rules.

India didn't say that. Some US Congresspeople apparently said that they'd torpedo a deal if the UK puts a hard border on the island of Ireland.

[Trumptonium1]

india and canada have said absolutely nothing about a hard border in ireland and canada has already signed a letter of intent (along with new zealand norway iceland saudi arabia and south korea) for a trade deal with the UK

so take your fake news elsewhere, back to america

Um India definitely has said that a trade deal with the UK must require no border with Ireland. It was mentioned in this thread several pages ago. Call it fake news if you want but it will just like an ostrich sticking it’s head in the ground.

you are free to provide a quotation to refute me, google and the uk government

Plus all of those outside of probably KSA are probably going to have their trade deals be contingent on no hard border.

hahaha yeah south korea cares about southern ireland so much

give it a break you anglophobe and get some sense of reality

Also Norway and Iceland are apart of the EAA and must abide by EU trade rules.

they are not because they are not in the customs union, they are free to strike trade deals where and when they wish.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

india and canada have said absolutely nothing about a hard border in ireland and canada has already signed a letter of intent (along with new zealand norway iceland saudi arabia and south korea) for a trade deal with the UK

so take your fake news elsewhere, back to america

Um India definitely has said that a trade deal with the UK must require no border with Ireland. It was mentioned in this thread several pages ago. Call it fake news if you want but it will just like an ostrich sticking it’s head in the ground.

Plus all of those outside of probably KSA are probably going to have their trade deals be contingent on no hard border. Also Norway and Iceland are apart of the EAA and must abide by EU trade rules.

Why would South Korea give a shit about Ireland? It cares about whether it can sell things to us easily.

[Fartsniffage]

Um India definitely has said that a trade deal with the UK must require no border with Ireland. It was mentioned in this thread several pages ago. Call it fake news if you want but it will just like an ostrich sticking it’s head in the ground.

Plus all of those outside of probably KSA are probably going to have their trade deals be contingent on no hard border. Also Norway and Iceland are apart of the EAA and must abide by EU trade rules.

Why would South Korea give a shit about Ireland? It cares about whether it can sell things to us easily.

Can you really not guess why South Korea might have a thing about a border cutting a people in two?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Why would South Korea give a shit about Ireland? It cares about whether it can sell things to us easily.

Can you really not guess why South Korea might have a thing about a border cutting a people in two?

It's not like millions of people are going to die over this one.

[Vassenor]

Another day, another case of Christopher Chope declaring himself the sole arbiter of what Parliament is and is not allowed to debate in order to derail a women's rights bill.

[The Blaatschapen]

Why would South Korea give a shit about Ireland? It cares about whether it can sell things to us easily.

Can you really not guess why South Korea might have a thing about a border cutting a people in two?

Only if communist Corbyn is in charge of the northern half

[Trumptonium1]

Viral tweet doing the rounds across Brexit twitter today that is making us all realise that Gina Miller is the accidental hero of Brexit.

The much despised asshole who tried to block Brexit is actually the reason we're likely going to leave without a deal. Her successful court case against the British government meant the executive could not push a withdrawal agreement through royal prerogative and instead needed to seek Parliament approval ... which is too split to approve anything, other than Article 50 itself, which automatically leads to WTO Brexit whether Parliament wants it or not. So the executive was rendered powerless and parliament sovereign.

As WTO Brexit comes ever closer to reality, I think we should all start paying homage to Gina Miller. Us Brexiteers apologising, and you remainers, uh, doing whatever it is you do to people you disagree with. Call her a nazi, should work.

I still remember back in the day two years ago when remainers were gloating "DIDN'T YOU WANT PARLIAMENT TO BE SOVEREIGN????"

Haha. Good old times. Hasn't that come back to bite hard.

[Trumptonium1]

Apparently this is the "origin" comment, on Guardian website under Gina Miller's article on Tuesday.

Sidcrint 2d ago

126
Never got to thank you Gina, without you stopping the government from using Henry VIII powers to enact Brexit the government would have been able to wave through May's deal, instead because of you're involvement it is now law that we leave on 29th March either with our without a deal.
A classic case of the law of unintended consequences.
Thanks again.

[Ifreann]

Fascinating to see that Britain is able to fuck itself no matter how power is balanced between parliament and the government. Don't know if I'd take it as a point of pride were I British, but there you go.

[Vassenor]

Reminder that a year ago the head of the Vote Leave campaign flat-out admitted the whole thing was built on lies.

[Trumptonium1]

Saving time for anyone who doesn't want to read an article from a cancerous source

This is "the lie"

Pundits and MPs kept saying ‘why isn’t Leave arguing about the economy and living standards’. They did not realise that for millions of people, £350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards – that’s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. Even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way.