UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

[Novus America]

But point here is however to avoid a hard Brexit.
The EU will not avoid a hard Brexit by being unwilling to work out a solution acceptable to the British Parliament.

Then the British Parliament should ditch the current PM and give confidence to a new one, since the current cabinet has proven its incompetence at negotiating with both Westminster and Bruxelles rather extensively. Doesn't look like the British Parliament has any intention of ditching May. Oh well. Their choice, not the EU's.

Too bad for Britain - they're the ones getting the worst end of this mess; then again, it's Britain that started it, and then slacked for months. If anything, the Brexit fuckup and the subsequent no-deal will serve as a warning to the other "sovereignists" around.

Time's up. Patience's up.

Again May is not a dictator. Making an agreement with her was not making an agreement with the UK.

Then what's the point of talking with a PM and their delegates? Who speaks for Britain on the international scene? Should Barmier just talk to the Queen?

Well a hard Brexit will hurt the EU too.
Hurting the EU just to spite the UK is not a great idea.

The point of talking the the PM is it is the closest thing you are going to get to someone speaking for the UK, but even after she agrees you still need to expect a lot of back and forth. Getting her to agree is not the end, just the beginning.

Parliamentary systems have issues.

[Novus America]

A hard Brexit hurts the EU too.

Who’ll be hurt more? Oh, that’s right, Britain.

Sure, probably. But that still does not mean the EU should not try to avoid a hard Brexit.

[Trumptonium1]

Oh, in addition to it being Brexit Day in 50 days, I forgot that today is the 27th anniversary of the European Union, created on 7th February 1992.

Completely forgettable as nobody is happy about it.

It's amazing John Major had the gall to speak about Brexit today causing uncertainty, considering the entire fiasco is down to him not having a referendum in 1992 in the first place.

[Novus America]

A hard Brexit hurts the EU too.

Not really. Yes they might lose some trade to the UK they can always go to other markets like India.

Moving supply chains takes money and time. It will hurt EU competitiveness.
It is not easy to shift supply chains quickly.

Also other markets like India are more protectionist. They are more interested in selling than buying. Global trade is already saturated and stagnating.

There are few if any untapped open markets left.

[Salandriagado]

several american congressmen saying they're going to try sink any future deal with the UK if we fuck up the good friday agreement and have a hard border on northern ireland.

i will admit this is one issue on which, as far as i can tell, remain seems to have been wrong. maybe it was squirreled away in some article i didn't read, but i can't recall any of us ever warning about this. we knew the US would fuck over the UK in any deal but i never thought they'd be using trade deals to directly attempt to dictate our foreign policy like this or that the irish-american lobby would get involved. in retrospect looking at other trade deals i suppose it's not that strange, but still, what a bummer. it should be readily apparent now, if it was not already before, that the idea the UK will just split off from the EU and make a series of amazing deals was a myth. it should also be extra apparent, now that both the US and india have their eyes on forcing the UK to compromise on its border and we're still debating the problems involved with tarrifs and the WTO, that the idea the UK will rise like a phoenix and "take back control" of its borders and trade was also a myth.

e: oh and the solution to this is for the countries of europe to group together to form a more cohesive bloc to avoid being isolated and bullied into submission by the larger economies. the united states economy already dwarfs the united kingdom's. as india continues to grow and china becomes more emboldened this will become progressively worse, until the UK is sitting alone trying to LARP as euro-singapore while it is wedged between the united states, the european union, india and china.

e2: oh yeah i forgot the US was the guarantor of the good friday agreement - good fucking luck to the people that unironically suggest just scrapping it and sending in the army to deal with the consequences.

Also, US trade deals are fucking horrible things, used by the US to enforce their own bullshit laws on other countries.

[Vassenor]

several american congressmen saying they're going to try sink any future deal with the UK if we fuck up the good friday agreement and have a hard border on northern ireland.

i will admit this is one issue on which, as far as i can tell, remain seems to have been wrong. maybe it was squirreled away in some article i didn't read, but i can't recall any of us ever warning about this. we knew the US would fuck over the UK in any deal but i never thought they'd be using trade deals to directly attempt to dictate our foreign policy like this or that the irish-american lobby would get involved. in retrospect looking at other trade deals i suppose it's not that strange, but still, what a bummer. it should be readily apparent now, if it was not already before, that the idea the UK will just split off from the EU and make a series of amazing deals was a myth. it should also be extra apparent, now that both the US and india have their eyes on forcing the UK to compromise on its border and we're still debating the problems involved with tarrifs and the WTO, that the idea the UK will rise like a phoenix and "take back control" of its borders and trade was also a myth.

e: oh and the solution to this is for the countries of europe to group together to form a more cohesive bloc to avoid being isolated and bullied into submission by the larger economies. the united states economy already dwarfs the united kingdom's. as india continues to grow and china becomes more emboldened this will become progressively worse, until the UK is sitting alone trying to LARP as euro-singapore while it is wedged between the united states, the european union, india and china.

e2: oh yeah i forgot the US was the guarantor of the good friday agreement - good fucking luck to the people that unironically suggest just scrapping it and sending in the army to deal with the consequences.

Also, US trade deals are fucking horrible things, used by the US to enforce their own bullshit laws on other countries.

#chlorinatedchicken

[Novus America]

Also, US trade deals are fucking horrible things, used by the US to enforce their own bullshit laws on other countries.

#chlorinatedchicken

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

[Novus America]

Also, US trade deals are fucking horrible things, used by the US to enforce their own bullshit laws on other countries.

#chlorinatedchicken

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

[Fartsniffage]

#chlorinatedchicken

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

The problem is the fact you have to clean it at all. EU standards in the rearing and slaughter of poultry mean that it isn't required here so leaving aside the fear of eating meat that has been washed in bleach, y'all should be stepping up your standards in meat production.

[Vassenor]

#chlorinatedchicken

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

Because how dare we have different health standards that don't need legitimately dangerous chemicals.

[Novus America]

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

The problem is the fact you have to clean it at all. EU standards in the rearing and slaughter of poultry mean that it isn't required here so leaving aside the fear of eating meat that has be washed in bleach, y'all should be stepping up your standards in meat production.

Did you read the article?
Not all American chicken gets cleaned with said chemicals, you can buy “organic” American chicken that does not get it.

It does not HAVE to be washed, but washing adds an extra safety step.
And their is no scientific evidence it is harmful.

[Fartsniffage]

The problem is the fact you have to clean it at all. EU standards in the rearing and slaughter of poultry mean that it isn't required here so leaving aside the fear of eating meat that has be washed in bleach, y'all should be stepping up your standards in meat production.

Did you read the article?
Not all American chicken gets cleaned with said chemicals, you can buy “organic” American chicken that does not get it.

It does not HAVE to be washed, but washing adds an extra safety step.
And their is no scientific evidence it is harmful.

http://theconversation.com/chlorine-was ... e-eu-81921

I never said it was definitely harmful, I said it was a result of shitty standards in food production and that was why the EU banned it.

[Novus America]

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

Because how dare we have different health standards that don't need legitimately dangerous chemicals.

Umm did you read the article? There is no evidence it is dangerous and you drink chlorinated water anyways. Because killing dangerous bacteria is good.

What evidence do you have it is dangerous beyond “but chemicals”?
Plus you as a consumer need not buy it.

And sure you can have your own rules if you so desire.
But if you block our products we block yours. That is how it works.

Why are we going to let your stuff in if you are not willing to reciprocate in kind?
Especially as we do not need it anyways, we are amongst the most self sufficient economies in the world. We do not need your trade.

We naturally only take it if we get something in return.

[Novus America]

Did you read the article?
Not all American chicken gets cleaned with said chemicals, you can buy “organic” American chicken that does not get it.

It does not HAVE to be washed, but washing adds an extra safety step.
And their is no scientific evidence it is harmful.

http://theconversation.com/chlorine-was ... e-eu-81921

I never said it was definitely harmful, I said it lead to shitty standards in food production and that was why the EU banned it.

“The EU ban is more precautionary than evidence based.”
Your own source admits the ban is not backed by evidence.
And you have every right to engage in such protectionism if you so wish, but obviously we will take retaliatory protectionist measures against your stuff.

That is how it works. If you want us to give you something we have to get something in return.

[Fartsniffage]

http://theconversation.com/chlorine-was ... e-eu-81921

I never said it was definitely harmful, I said it lead to shitty standards in food production and that was why the EU banned it.

“The EU ban is more precautionary than evidence based.”
Your own source admits the ban is not backed by evidence.
And you have every right to engage in such protectionism if you so wish, but obviously we will take retaliatory protectionist measures against your stuff.

That is how it works. If you want us to give you something we have to get something in return.

It is not backed by evidence that eating the meat is harmful to humans, it is backed by the fact that the US has shitty food production standards.

And the UK will willingly buy your non-chlorinated chicken and sell you our non-chlorinated chicken. An even trade. Our production methods are more expensive than yours so I doubt we'd sell much to you but it's an even trade.

[Salandriagado]

#chlorinatedchicken

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

The point is the enforced lowering of safety standards, continual attempts to dismantle the NHS in order to allow American pharmaceutical companies to make more profits, enforced US copyright laws, etc., etc., etc.

[Novus America]

“The EU ban is more precautionary than evidence based.”
Your own source admits the ban is not backed by evidence.
And you have every right to engage in such protectionism if you so wish, but obviously we will take retaliatory protectionist measures against your stuff.

That is how it works. If you want us to give you something we have to get something in return.

It is not backed by evidence that eating the meat is harmful to humans, it is backed by the fact that the US has shitty food production standards.

And the UK will willingly buy your non-chlorinated chicken and sell you our non-chlorinated chicken. An even trade. Our production methods are more expensive than yours so I doubt we'd sell much to you but it's an even trade.

Do you have evidence you are more likely to get sick from ours?

You already buy the non clorinated stuff it so what do we get from that?
Also trade negotiations look at the big picture, not just one item at a time.

If you want us to drop one of our demands you give us something in return.
We do not need a free trade agreement with the UK, so unless it benefits us why should we be interested?

[Vassenor]

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

The point is the enforced lowering of safety standards, continual attempts to dismantle the NHS in order to allow American pharmaceutical companies to make more profits, enforced US copyright laws, etc., etc., etc.

Remember how voting Leave was about removing foreign control over our laws?

[Souseiseki]

Because how dare we have different health standards that don't need legitimately dangerous chemicals.

Umm did you read the article? There is no evidence it is dangerous and you drink chlorinated water anyways. Because killing dangerous bacteria is good.

What evidence do you have it is dangerous beyond “but chemicals”?
Plus you as a consumer need not buy it.

And sure you can have your own rules if you so desire.
But if you block our products we block yours. That is how it works.

Why are we going to let your stuff in if you are not willing to reciprocate in kind?
Especially as we do not need it anyways, we are amongst the most self sufficient economies in the world. We do not need your trade.

We naturally only take it if we get something in return.

do you have any real investment in this chicken or are you just defending it because it has become a proxy for american influence in the united kingdom and you feel an attack on it as an attack on america which makes you sad

[Novus America]

Luddite chemophobia aside, chicken cleaned of bacteria is not a big deal
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.econom ... =undefined

Obviously if you want us to buy your stuff, we want market access in return.

Besides nobody would be forcing you to buy it if you do not want to.
Not that there is any evidence whatsoever that cleaning chicken is bad.

The point is the enforced lowering of safety standards, continual attempts to dismantle the NHS in order to allow American pharmaceutical companies to make more profits, enforced US copyright laws, etc., etc., etc.

Sure, you have your wants, and we have ours. Obviously we want more market access, otherwise why would we sign a trade agreement at all?

But if you refuse some of our wanted market access, we will limit some of your market access in return.

Nobody is forcing you to sign anything.
If you do not like the terms do not sign.

But you will not get what you want either.

[Fartsniffage]

It is not backed by evidence that eating the meat is harmful to humans, it is backed by the fact that the US has shitty food production standards.

And the UK will willingly buy your non-chlorinated chicken and sell you our non-chlorinated chicken. An even trade. Our production methods are more expensive than yours so I doubt we'd sell much to you but it's an even trade.

Do you have evidence you are more likely to get sick from ours?

You already buy the non clorinated stuff it so what do we get from that?
Also trade negotiations look at the big picture, not just one item at a time.

If you want us to drop one of our demands you give us something in return.
We do not need a free trade agreement with the UK, so unless it benefits us why should we be interested?

Are you being intently obtuse? The ban is because of poor standards in the US poultry industry, not because eating chlorinated chicken is likely to make you sick. I can't explain it any more clearly than that.

And if you don't think that trade with the 5th largest economy in the world would have benefits for the US then you're clearly just wrong.

[Novus America]

Umm did you read the article? There is no evidence it is dangerous and you drink chlorinated water anyways. Because killing dangerous bacteria is good.

What evidence do you have it is dangerous beyond “but chemicals”?
Plus you as a consumer need not buy it.

And sure you can have your own rules if you so desire.
But if you block our products we block yours. That is how it works.

Why are we going to let your stuff in if you are not willing to reciprocate in kind?
Especially as we do not need it anyways, we are amongst the most self sufficient economies in the world. We do not need your trade.

We naturally only take it if we get something in return.

do you have any real investment in this chicken or are you just defending it because it has become a proxy for american influence in the united kingdom and you feel an attack on it as an attack on america which makes you sad

No, I have no investment.
It is just if you want the chicken ban, we want something in return.

We have been screwed over in way too many trade deals, we are now playing hard ball, as we should.

I simply will oppose any trade deal that is not beneficial to the US.
And you have every right to oppose one not beneficial to the UK.

And if the chicken thing is such a big deal I am sure we will give it to you if you give us something return.

Just do not expect the US to go easy in trade negotiations any more. It is no longer the 70s.

[Novus America]

Do you have evidence you are more likely to get sick from ours?

You already buy the non clorinated stuff it so what do we get from that?
Also trade negotiations look at the big picture, not just one item at a time.

If you want us to drop one of our demands you give us something in return.
We do not need a free trade agreement with the UK, so unless it benefits us why should we be interested?

Are you being intently obtuse? The ban is because of poor standards in the US poultry industry, not because eating chlorinated chicken is likely to make you sick. I can't explain it any more clearly than that.

And if you don't think that trade with the 5th largest economy in the world would have benefits for the US then you're clearly just wrong.

If the standards are poor, you should be able to demonstrate the poor standards are causing a higher risk of food borne disease. I am talking about showing a higher risk of bacterial diseases regardless of the cleaning process.

Oh of course a trade agreement with the UK COULD be beneficial, if the terms are right.

Trade is not automatically good or bad, it all depends on the terms of the trade.

Also we can still trade with the UK because of the WTO even in absence of an agreement, so we only should sign an agreement offering better terms than the WTO default.

I just do not see why you are surprised the US is making demands in negotiations.
That is how it is done.
We make our demands, you make yours, and we try to see if we can work out a compromise.

I am sure we would drop the chicken demand if you gave us enough in return.

[Fartsniffage]

do you have any real investment in this chicken or are you just defending it because it has become a proxy for american influence in the united kingdom and you feel an attack on it as an attack on america which makes you sad

No, I have no investment.
It is just if you want the chicken ban, we want something in return.

We have been screwed over in way to many trade deals, we are now playing hard ball, as we should.

I simply will oppose any trade deal that is not beneficial to the US.
And you have every right to oppose one not beneficial to the UK.

And if the chicken thing is such a big deal I am sure we will give it to you if you give us something return.

Just do not expect the US to go easy in trade negotiations any more. It is no longer the 70s.

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/euro ... ed-kingdom

The US has a trade surplus with the UK. We already put more money into your economy than you put into ours, you're already at an advantage. How many other countries do you have a surplus with? Do you really think the US should risk that over chicken?

[Ostroeuropa]

Are you being intently obtuse? The ban is because of poor standards in the US poultry industry, not because eating chlorinated chicken is likely to make you sick. I can't explain it any more clearly than that.

And if you don't think that trade with the 5th largest economy in the world would have benefits for the US then you're clearly just wrong.

If the standards are poor, you should be able to demonstrate the poor standards are causing a higher risk of food borne disease. I am talking about showing a higher risk of bacterial diseases regardless of the cleaning process.

Oh of course a trade agreement with the UK COULD be beneficial, if the terms are right.

Trade is not automatically good or bad, it all depends on the terms of the trade.

Also we can still trade with the UK because of the WTO even in absence of an agreement, so we only should sign an agreement offering better terms than the WTO default.

I just do not see why you are surprised the US is making demands in negotiations.
That is how it is done.
We make our demands, you make yours, and we try to see if we can work out a compromise.

I am sure we would drop the chicken demand if you gave us enough in return.

It is not in the US's interests to strengthen their obesity causing food practices and make the corporations that push them even more profitable and important to multiple countries instead of reliant on a domestic market.

It is costing you billions to eat this food, it's like the healthcare shit you guys get up to, a false saving caused by economic parasites masquerading as useful businessmen. You spend 5 bucks instead of 7 on a chicken and need 20 bucks of surgery, what a bargain.

You would be better off if you banned it too.

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