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UK Politics Thread VIII—Can't Let EU Go

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If a general election were held today who would you vote for?

Conservatives
122
16%
Labour
228
30%
Liberal Democrats
128
17%
Greens
37
5%
UKIP
135
18%
SNP
26
3%
Plaid Cymru
7
1%
Sinn Fein/SDLP
26
3%
DUP/UUP
12
2%
Other
34
5%
 
Total votes : 755

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Far Easter Republic
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Far Easter Republic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:15 am

The blAAtschApen wrote:Poor Luxembourg. And what is San Marino doing there? :blink: And Italy twice? :P

Also, not entirely.

Sweden and Denmark are not anywhere near being leaders. They're not even Eurozone. They, together with Finland are usually Nordic.

And the three baltic states, especially Estonia, would not like to be lumped in with the balkan.

Edit: And there are more mistakes. I would not add Austria to Visegrad.

There is over lap. PIGS is a economic situation.
Update
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain
The Nordics:
Sweden, Denmark, Finland
The Baltic States:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
PIGS:
Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus
Others:
Ireland, Finland, Slovenia, Luxembourg
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Compass:Left/Right:3.25; Authoritarian/Libertarian:1.28
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The blAAtschApen
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Postby The blAAtschApen » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:19 am

Far Easter Republic wrote:
The blAAtschApen wrote:Poor Luxembourg. And what is San Marino doing there? :blink: And Italy twice? :P

Also, not entirely.

Sweden and Denmark are not anywhere near being leaders. They're not even Eurozone. They, together with Finland are usually Nordic.

And the three baltic states, especially Estonia, would not like to be lumped in with the balkan.

Edit: And there are more mistakes. I would not add Austria to Visegrad.

There is over lap. PIGS is a economic situation.
Update
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain
The Nordics:
Sweden, Denmark, Finland
The Baltic States:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
PIGS:
Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus
Others:
Ireland, Finland, Slovenia, Luxembourg


Tax havens for corporations:
Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands
Last edited by The blAAtschApen on Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Far Easter Republic
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Founded: Nov 21, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Far Easter Republic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:22 am

The blAAtschApen wrote:
Far Easter Republic wrote:There is over lap. PIGS is a economic situation.
Update
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain
The Nordics:
Sweden, Denmark, Finland
The Baltic States:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
PIGS:
Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus
Others:
Ireland, Finland, Slovenia, Luxembourg


Tax havens for corporations:
Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands

Update 2
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain
The Nordics:
Sweden, Denmark, Finland
The Baltic States:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
PIGS:
Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus
Offshore Tax Havens For Corporations:
Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Cyprus
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Compass:Left/Right:3.25; Authoritarian/Libertarian:1.28
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1159280
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=egg ... id=1166228

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:29 am

The blAAtschApen wrote:
Far Easter Republic wrote:I'm guessing the factions are:
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Denmark
PIGS:
Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia
Others:
Ireland, Finland, Slovenia, San Marino


Poor Luxembourg. And what is San Marino doing there? :blink: And Italy twice? :P

Also, not entirely.

Sweden and Denmark are not anywhere near being leaders. They're not even Eurozone. They, together with Finland are usually Nordic.

And the three baltic states, especially Estonia, would not like to be lumped in with the balkan.

Edit: And there are more mistakes. I would not add Austria to Visegrad.

And Ireland's one of the PIIGS. The EU had to bail us out.
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That's why we build the wall
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Far Easter Republic
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Postby Far Easter Republic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:33 am

Ifreann wrote:
The blAAtschApen wrote:
Poor Luxembourg. And what is San Marino doing there? :blink: And Italy twice? :P

Also, not entirely.

Sweden and Denmark are not anywhere near being leaders. They're not even Eurozone. They, together with Finland are usually Nordic.

And the three baltic states, especially Estonia, would not like to be lumped in with the balkan.

Edit: And there are more mistakes. I would not add Austria to Visegrad.

And Ireland's one of the PIIGS. The EU had to bail us out.

Okay.
Update 3
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain
The Nordics:
Sweden, Denmark, Finland
The Baltic States:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
PIIGS:
Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus
Offshore Tax Havens For Corporations:
Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Cyprus
Welcome to the Far Easter Republic, where political angles can be left, right, acute or obtuse.
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Compass:Left/Right:3.25; Authoritarian/Libertarian:1.28
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1159280
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=egg ... id=1166228

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Thermodolia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Thermodolia » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:17 am

The blAAtschApen wrote:
Far Easter Republic wrote:I'm guessing the factions are:
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Denmark
PIGS:
Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia
Others:
Ireland, Finland, Slovenia, San Marino


Poor Luxembourg. And what is San Marino doing there? :blink: And Italy twice? :P

Also, not entirely.

Sweden and Denmark are not anywhere near being leaders. They're not even Eurozone. They, together with Finland are usually Nordic.

And the three baltic states, especially Estonia, would not like to be lumped in with the balkan.

Edit: And there are more mistakes. I would not add Austria to Visegrad.

Well not yet. But they are moving closer to V4
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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:20 am

Thermodolia wrote:
The blAAtschApen wrote:
Poor Luxembourg. And what is San Marino doing there? :blink: And Italy twice? :P

Also, not entirely.

Sweden and Denmark are not anywhere near being leaders. They're not even Eurozone. They, together with Finland are usually Nordic.

And the three baltic states, especially Estonia, would not like to be lumped in with the balkan.

Edit: And there are more mistakes. I would not add Austria to Visegrad.

Well not yet. But they are moving closer to V4

Everyone has been internally, tbh. The E. U. makes it easy for people to hates it after all.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:36 am

Really, trying to divide up the EU into factions like this is a futile endeavour, and the UK is the perfect example of why. One might think, perfectly simple, put the UK in its own "So Very Eurosceptic We're Leaving the EU" faction. But a little under half the UK doesn't want to leave. The politicians who do want to leave can't agree on anything except not letting Jeremy Corbyn be PM.

And every EU country has internal politics like that. Well, most probably aren't as shambolic as the British politics, but they do all have their own internal parties and factions vying for power. Without knowing much about Austrian politics, I dare say that it is as accurate to say that they are moving towards Visegrad as it is to say that Britain wants to leave the EU. And likewise the other 26 countries.
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What do we have that they should want?
We have a wall to work upon!
We have work and they have none
And our work is never done
My children, my children
And the war is never won
The enemy is poverty
And the wall keeps out the enemy
And we build the wall to keep us free
That's why we build the wall
We build the wall to keep us free
We build the wall to keep us free

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Phoenicaea
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Postby Phoenicaea » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:05 am

^ 'visegrad' is most of all quite about nothing, i don t know who has slip it into the thread, it is about the 'non-debate' of moving immigrants from state to state into the eu.

it is not even debate for debating, because there is no sense in that querelle, in any parts. the non-agreement photo shows shouldn t be talked about, not even pure teological debates.
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Trumptonium1
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Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:51 am

Far Easter Republic wrote:
Neu Leonstein wrote:A second referendum's result would obviously depend on the question, but personally, I think the mess made of Brexit so far means that a whole bunch of people who voted less because of some fundamental disagreement with the EU and more out of dissatisfaction with Cameron or 'the Establishment' will flip over to remain.

As for the accessions, I don't think Brexit would have any significant effect. Turkey's accession talks have been dead for many years, first because conservatives in major countries didn't like the idea of doing it quickly, and now because Turkey is ruled by a more nationalist authoritarian government for which the EU is more useful as an adversary to rally against in domestic politics. And the ones in the Balkans will be a protracted process without a certain outcome either way, but all for their own reasons unrelated to Brexit.

You've got to remember, Brexit is obviously Topic #1 for Britain, but it is not really for the EU. There are a lot of other things going on, mostly 'domestic', i.e. debates between countries and factions within them about EU policies. Compared to those, Brexit is 'easy' - a consensus on the EU stance was found early and has been stuck to.

I'm guessing the factions are:
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Sweden, Denmark
PIGS:
Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus
Others:
Ireland, Finland, Slovenia, San Marino

Ascension Process:
Likely: Serbia(2/16 of 35), Montenegro(3 of 35)
Probably: Albania(Candidate), Macedonia(Candidate)
Hopefully: Bosnia and Herzegovina(Applicant), Kosovo(Possible Applicant), Turkey(1/16 of 35), Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan
Pipe Dream: Belarus, Russia, Switzerland, Armenia


what is this even?

While the Czech Republic and Slovakia are in Visegrad, neither of them are particularly right-wing. They are populist. The ruling party of Slovakia SMER is in the Socialists & Democrats group in the Euro parliament and they are nationalist social democrats.

At this point it's okay to lump Italy with Visegrad, as last week Salvini went as far as advocating for a "Polish-Italian Axis" to lead the 'other half' of the EU in a different direction from Merkel and her French moron, but there's no guarantee that the coalition will last. Salvini is trying to organise a merger of EFDD, ENF and ECR in the European parliament, which would be a big step to organising an effective anti-EU opposition, however, Poland's PiS hasn't been too welcoming of the idea because they want to woo the increasingly right-wing-but-still-mainstream Partido Popular and Les Republicains of Spain and France away from EPP and into ECR.

No idea why Spain is in the 'leaders' group, they're dismissed at every turn and that's been a constant gripe for left-wing populists. Denmark and Sweden are not even in the Euro, can't be a 'leader' if you don't have a say in one of the main tenets of the institution. Netherlands are not a leader since they have an awkward ruling party that tends to side with Britain. Belgium is not even a country.

Portugal has done alright for itself for the last three or four years, and can no longer be presumed to be in the doldrums. Same with Spain but to a larger extent. Italy and Greece yes.

"Laggards" makes no sense for a group that has the highest economic growth - Romania 7% last year or so, and Estonia is due to start being a net contributor due to economic catch-up to the west in recent years.

San Marino isn't even EU.

Serbia is unlikely to join because of Kosovo. Albania is not going to join because it's Muslim and it's going to get vetoed by Eastern Europe.
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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:30 am

apparently the EU might be dropping the controversial parts of its new copyright laws due to a lack of support while the prime minister of the UK is having a huff and threatening to throw us off a cliff edge or scupper the whole thing if she can't get what she wants. in the mean time, she's also bringing the possibility of us leaving the ECHR after we leave because she still hasn't dropped it. hmm. hmm. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Shrillland
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Postby Shrillland » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:34 am

Souseiseki wrote:apparently the EU might be dropping the controversial parts of its new copyright laws due to a lack of support while the prime minister of the UK is having a huff and threatening to throw us off a cliff edge or scupper the whole thing if she can't get what she wants. in the mean time, she's also bringing the possibility of us leaving the ECHR after we leave because she still hasn't dropped it. hmm. hmm. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


That would involve leaving the Council of Europe, though, and if Britain leaves that, there's no hope left.
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Trumptonium1
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:45 am

Shrillland wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:apparently the EU might be dropping the controversial parts of its new copyright laws due to a lack of support while the prime minister of the UK is having a huff and threatening to throw us off a cliff edge or scupper the whole thing if she can't get what she wants. in the mean time, she's also bringing the possibility of us leaving the ECHR after we leave because she still hasn't dropped it. hmm. hmm. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


That would involve leaving the Council of Europe, though, and if Britain leaves that, there's no hope left.


ECHR prevents us deporting terrorists back to their hellholes because of yuman rites
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:46 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Shrillland wrote:
That would involve leaving the Council of Europe, though, and if Britain leaves that, there's no hope left.


ECHR prevents us deporting terrorists back to their hellholes because of yuman rites


Fucking good. They should be sitting in our prisons, not running free in some other country.
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Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

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Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:50 am

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Shrillland wrote:
That would involve leaving the Council of Europe, though, and if Britain leaves that, there's no hope left.


ECHR prevents us deporting terrorists back to their hellholes because of yuman rites


the ECHR also prevents the government from fucking you anywhere near as hard as it wishes it could. and hey, maybe deporting people to hellholes to get tortured is a bad thing?
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:55 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
ECHR prevents us deporting terrorists back to their hellholes because of yuman rites


the ECHR also prevents the government from fucking you anywhere near as hard as it wishes it could. and hey, maybe deporting people to hellholes to get tortured is a bad thing?


Also, it stops Theresa May deporting gay people to Uganda to win by-elections. Again.
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Trumptonium1
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:34 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
ECHR prevents us deporting terrorists back to their hellholes because of yuman rites


Fucking good. They should be sitting in our prisons, not running free in some other country.


They shouldn't be alive, and I applaud Javid for sending some out to the US for some final rites as a backdoor to capital punishment.
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Trumptonium1
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Postby Trumptonium1 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:35 pm

Souseiseki wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
ECHR prevents us deporting terrorists back to their hellholes because of yuman rites


the ECHR also prevents the government from fucking you anywhere near as hard as it wishes it could. and hey, maybe deporting people to hellholes to get tortured is a bad thing?


Because UK governments were famously fucking citizens and torturing them in police stations before the UK finally received human rights courtesy of Europe ... in 1997.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:36 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
the ECHR also prevents the government from fucking you anywhere near as hard as it wishes it could. and hey, maybe deporting people to hellholes to get tortured is a bad thing?


Because UK governments were famously fucking citizens and torturing them in police stations before the UK finally received human rights courtesy of Europe ... in 1997.


...
Yes?
Yes we have a history of extreme police abuse until extremely recently?

Dude, have you even fucking heard of Northern Ireland? Or hillsborough?

Dude, for fucks sake, the EU court was literally the court to handle our police and their misadventures in northern ireland multiple times and protected the rights of people there.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:41 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
the ECHR also prevents the government from fucking you anywhere near as hard as it wishes it could. and hey, maybe deporting people to hellholes to get tortured is a bad thing?


Because UK governments were famously fucking citizens and torturing them in police stations before the UK finally received human rights courtesy of Europe ... in 1997.

Never heard of the Birmingham 6?

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The Huskar Social Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:47 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Trumptonium1 wrote:
Because UK governments were famously fucking citizens and torturing them in police stations before the UK finally received human rights courtesy of Europe ... in 1997.

Never heard of the Birmingham 6?

Or the Guildford four. Or the Maguire Seven.

And all the others tortured with the five techniques during the troubles by the RUC. Or all the ones harassed, searched, detained and beaten throughout the troubles simply for being irish and catholic.

But considering his response to a UI two pages a go was to arm the DUP if "Sinn Fein kicked up a fuss" i doubt he fucking cares.
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:50 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Never heard of the Birmingham 6?

Or the Guildford four. Or the Maguire Seven.

And all the others tortured with the five techniques during the troubles by the RUC. Or all the ones harassed, searched, detained and beaten throughout the troubles simply for being irish and catholic.

But considering his response to a UI two pages a go was to arm the DUP if "Sinn Fein kicked up a fuss" i doubt he fucking cares.

The DUP strike me as the sort of people who'd need training to know which is the end you point at the bad man.

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Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39919
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:52 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Or the Guildford four. Or the Maguire Seven.

And all the others tortured with the five techniques during the troubles by the RUC. Or all the ones harassed, searched, detained and beaten throughout the troubles simply for being irish and catholic.

But considering his response to a UI two pages a go was to arm the DUP if "Sinn Fein kicked up a fuss" i doubt he fucking cares.

The DUP strike me as the sort of people who'd need training to know which is the end you point at the bad man.


I mean they're currently holding up reforming the NI assembly over such petulant things as official recognition of the Irish language. So yeah.
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Souseiseki
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Posts: 17813
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:55 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
the ECHR also prevents the government from fucking you anywhere near as hard as it wishes it could. and hey, maybe deporting people to hellholes to get tortured is a bad thing?


Because UK governments were famously fucking citizens and torturing them in police stations before the UK finally received human rights courtesy of Europe ... in 1997.


1) yes. see above. there's a reason the human rights act got baked into the good friday agreement!
2) yes again. there are many many examples of the ECHR striking down terrible UK laws from before and after 1997 which have been covered in this thread and its previous incarnations. the important thing is that the ECHR's interpretation of what rights we have is stronger than what the UK's interpretation is, so while leaving the ECHR won't suddenly cause us to lose all our rights it will mean we will in practice have our rights weakened and we will no longer be able to use the human rights act to challenge primary legislation in court.
Last edited by Souseiseki on Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
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The World Capitalist Confederation
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Posts: 476
Founded: Dec 07, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby The World Capitalist Confederation » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:00 pm

Far Easter Republic wrote:
Ifreann wrote:And Ireland's one of the PIIGS. The EU had to bail us out.

Okay.
Update 3
The Right Wing:
Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Italy, Austria, Malta
The Leaders:
Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Spain
The Nordics:
Sweden, Denmark, Finland
The Baltic States:
Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania
PIIGS:
Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain
The Laggards:
Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus
Offshore Tax Havens For Corporations:
Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Cyprus

Add the UK to:
PIIGS (I guess UKPIIGS now) (This is because of the large falls in worker’s wages and generally the effect of austerity as a whole)
Offshore Tax Havens for Corporations (The UK has the lowest corp. tax rate in the G20)
The Right-Wing (Conservative MEPs voted against condemning Òrban and the UK government is one of the most right-wing in Europe)
And make a new category called Eurosceptics:
Eurosceptics:
Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, Croatia, Italy, UK, Greece
Is Homosexual.
IC name is the Neo-British Empire. all factbooks.
10.5 according to this: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=363018
Literature Index: http://www.dichotomytests.com/results.h ... a=100&p=80
Philosophical Index: http://www.dichotomytests.com/results.h ... =52.5&s=80
MBTI: ENTP
I'm an anarcho-syndicalist IRL. This nation is actually intended as a dystopia and/or as a mockup of liberal capitalism. From the outside, it looks almost like a dictatorship or an oligarchy, but it's actually no more corrupt than any other capitalist democracy.
"GoMies sTaRVe" debunking: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646771/

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