Pragmatarian Discussion Thread

[Washington Resistance Army]

We kicked tires, took a test drive and it was loudly knocking.

And we did not need a mechanic to tell us that.

What's the harm in asking a mechanic what's wrong with the car? It's not like it costs anything to e-mail some professor.

Sometimes it's blatantly obvious what's wrong and you don't need a professional.

[Xerographica]

What's the harm in asking a mechanic what's wrong with the car? It's not like it costs anything to e-mail some professor.

Sometimes it's blatantly obvious what's wrong and you don't need a professional.

You're arguing against asking the experts. This is how you know that you're wrong.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Sometimes it's blatantly obvious what's wrong and you don't need a professional.

You're arguing against asking the experts. This is how you know that you're wrong.

No, no it's fucking not Xero. If my arms falls off I don't need to ask an expert to know that something is fucking wrong. Your idea is bad, it has been shown to be bad and easily abusable, it has no merit and offers nothing to the world. Stop shitting up NSG with it.

[Xerographica]

You're arguing against asking the experts. This is how you know that you're wrong.

No, no it's fucking not Xero. If my arms falls off I don't need to ask an expert to know that something is fucking wrong. Your idea is bad, it has been shown to be bad and easily abusable, it has no merit and offers nothing to the world. Stop shitting up NSG with it.

Tell me what you think would happen if you asked an expert whether there's any evidence that BV is better than DV at ranking things.

[Washington Resistance Army]

No, no it's fucking not Xero. If my arms falls off I don't need to ask an expert to know that something is fucking wrong. Your idea is bad, it has been shown to be bad and easily abusable, it has no merit and offers nothing to the world. Stop shitting up NSG with it.

Tell me what you think would happen if you asked an expert whether there's any evidence that BV is better than DV at ranking things.

They would tell me that DV is an easily abusable system that offers no real merit over BV. Ya know, just like how literally everyone on this site has been telling you for years. Your system is bad when it can be ruined by a few people deciding to meme it.

Rule by goats currently has $9 more on it than pragmatarianism does, tell me Xero, do you think the people who donated for that option actually believe in rule via goats and that DV was a good way of establishing that? Or are they just doing it because the system is stupid and the only merit these threads have nowadays is the comedy factor?

[Xerographica]

Tell me what you think would happen if you asked an expert whether there's any evidence that BV is better than DV at ranking things.

They would tell me that DV is an easily abusable system that offers no real merit over BV. Ya know, just like how literally everyone on this site has been telling you for years. Your system is bad when it can be ruined by a few people deciding to meme it.

Rule by goats currently has $9 more on it than pragmatarianism does, tell me Xero, do you think the people who donated for that option actually believe in rule via goats and that DV was a good way of establishing that? Or are they just doing it because the system is stupid and the only merit these threads have nowadays is the comedy factor?

E-mail an expert and ask them what they think about your interpretation.

[Washington Resistance Army]

They would tell me that DV is an easily abusable system that offers no real merit over BV. Ya know, just like how literally everyone on this site has been telling you for years. Your system is bad when it can be ruined by a few people deciding to meme it.

Rule by goats currently has $9 more on it than pragmatarianism does, tell me Xero, do you think the people who donated for that option actually believe in rule via goats and that DV was a good way of establishing that? Or are they just doing it because the system is stupid and the only merit these threads have nowadays is the comedy factor?

E-mail an expert and ask them what they think about your interpretation.

You should answer my questions.

[Infected Mushroom]

The way I see it... there's really no harm in trying this system. I mean, it could even work.

Its not like capitalist democracy has really been working anyways. The system has just been breeding and rewarding mediocrity, profiteering and populism.

Maybe if people actually had to pay something (make a sacrifice) instead of just casually throwing a vote, we could reach a better collective outcome. Who knows right?

No sense in sticking to traditionalism when its been a colossal failure and doesn't even fit together in an ideological sense very well (a high school popularity contest seems like a nonsensical way to run a state in any event). This might be the new way forward.

We should try...

[Alvecia]

The way I see it... there's really no harm in trying this system.

Well, I mean, there quite literally is, given how easy it is to abuse and sabotage.

[Xerographica]

Infected Mushroom, yes! Your open-mindedness is a breath of fresh air. I just bought postmaster general for you and will put the $7 dollars on pragmatarianism.

[Thermodolia]

The way I see it... there's really no harm in trying this system. I mean, it could even work.

Its not like capitalist democracy has really been working anyways. The system has just been breeding and rewarding mediocrity, profiteering and populism.

Maybe if people actually had to pay something (make a sacrifice) instead of just casually throwing a vote, we could reach a better collective outcome. Who knows right?

No sense in sticking to traditionalism when its been a colossal failure and doesn't even fit together in an ideological sense very well (a high school popularity contest seems like a nonsensical way to run a state in any event). This might be the new way forward.

We should try...

This reads like someone who just discovered that socialism is a thing

[Washington Resistance Army]

The way I see it... there's really no harm in trying this system. I mean, it could even work.

Its not like capitalist democracy has really been working anyways. The system has just been breeding and rewarding mediocrity, profiteering and populism.

Maybe if people actually had to pay something (make a sacrifice) instead of just casually throwing a vote, we could reach a better collective outcome. Who knows right?

No sense in sticking to traditionalism when its been a colossal failure and doesn't even fit together in an ideological sense very well (a high school popularity contest seems like a nonsensical way to run a state in any event). This might be the new way forward.

We should try...

This reads like someone who just discovered that socialism is a thing

Knowing Kefka that might just be his next thing.

[Infected Mushroom]

Infected Mushroom, yes! Your open-mindedness is a breath of fresh air. I just bought postmaster general for you and will put the $7 dollars on pragmatarianism.

Many thanks my friend!

[Alvecia]

Wait, could I fake my preference to get Xero to pay for a shiny badge on my nation page? Tempting....

[Washington Resistance Army]

Wait, could I fake my preference to get Xero to pay for a shiny badge on my nation page? Tempting....

Evidently so lol

[The Holy Therns]

Hey, Xero, quick question. Can you define the main flaws of your system?

I can't think of any.

Can your system be gamed?

[Xerographica]

I can't think of any.

Can your system be gamed?

Imagine that we want to do a meetup and we use DV to choose the location. How, exactly, can this be gamed? I honestly don't know.

[Bombadil]

Well I think there's a fair degree of cross talking, I imagine he feels he has to keep explaining basic shit as well.. but I think the key to understanding him is that he's a 'why should my taxes pay for other people' Austrian economist. Hence all this DV vs BV is really just a means to direct his taxes to what he wants.

If that's your core belief then any evidence is unlikely to shake you.

But it's not like I'm under the impression that anybody else is even trying to kick the tires.

Maybe that's telling you something.

Have you e-mailed any subject matter experts to ask them if there's any evidence that BV is better than DV? If not, then why not? Do you not care?

Have you, how's those results working for you?

There is zero incentive to donate money just to see if it creates a better ranking. No one would bother except someone trying to prove it's better than simple choice. In addition we can look at political donations as well as movie billing rankings over voting rankings and already see the bad effects. We can see the real life results beyond the experiment on NSG.

Just think about it, if you asked people to name the best film ever the results would likely be along the lines of Citizen Kane or whatever I showed earlier. Ask what they'd pay for and you get the relative dross that is the top billing movies. What people recognise as quality and what they will pay for are not the same thing and generally people will pay for the trash, they won't buy the super healthy fruit and veggie yoghurt mix over, basically, 8 teaspoons of sugar with some cola.

You must know this is true.

The only person ever motivated to 'kick the tires' is you and your motivation is actually to just prove your theory correct, not to honestly see whether it creates better rankings.

And the reason you're doing it is you want to direct your taxes, which vastly skews to the rich over the poor.

At every point in your motivations you've been shown to be wrong.. but you want to direct your taxes, it's your primary start point from which all else flows and even when shown that human behaviour skews your results, well you ignore all that human behaviour as it does not accord with your perfect world that would result in you being able to direct your taxes.

You know.. even in polling and betting BV is better, the polls in the Republican primary consistently favoured Trump but the betting went from Jeb Bush.. then Marco Rubio when Jeb failed and only finally over to Trump.

Despite all the evidence that money can be gamed, is skewed, favours the rich.. any actual real life example generally shows you to be wrong.. but the theoretical idea of more consideration being placed when money is involved than not is fine.. in theory.. but a theory's only a theory until tested.. and you won't accept any result against your theory and you ignore all the real life examples where it doesn't work. Always a 'but..', always a 'if..', hence people telling you your approach to science is not just wrong it's pretty much an insult to science.

Ultimately if you had your way the best you'd prove is your theory is correct in very tightly controlled circumstances aimed at proving your theory is correct.

Otherwise, and I'm sorry dude, seems you've put a lot of dedication and effort into proving yourself right.. but you're just wrong.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Can your system be gamed?

Imagine that we want to do a meetup and we use DV to choose the location. How, exactly, can this be gamed? I honestly don't know.

Because someone could simply donate a bunch of money to send you all to a spot none of you want to go. This isn't hard to understand. Thus far DV has shown us that NSG likes 50 Shades of Grey and goats leading nations, do you actually think either of those are true?

[Alvecia]

Imagine that we want to do a meetup and we use DV to choose the location. How, exactly, can this be gamed? I honestly don't know.

Because someone could simply donate a bunch of money to send you all to a spot none of you want to go. This isn't hard to understand. Thus far DV has shown us that NSG likes 50 Shades of Grey and goats leading nations, do you actually think either of those are true?

NSG Meetup: Antarctica.
I won't be attending, but I'll definitely put money towards that.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Because someone could simply donate a bunch of money to send you all to a spot none of you want to go. This isn't hard to understand. Thus far DV has shown us that NSG likes 50 Shades of Grey and goats leading nations, do you actually think either of those are true?

NSG Meetup: Antarctica.
I won't be attending, but I'll definitely put money towards that.

I'm down to go to Antarctica, I've always wanted to steal one of those Nazi UFO's.

[Galloism]

Hey, Xero, quick question. Can you define the main flaws of your system?

I can't think of any.

This is a giant red flag.

All systems have downsides and flaws. If you can't think of a single flaw in your system, you aren't looking at it objectively.

Xero, this is absolute proof positive that you aren't being objective in your assessment, not even remotely so. It's as true as if you said it about republicanism, social democracy, communism, etc. If you can't identify a single flaw in your system, you haven't even begun to analyze that system - regardless of system.

[Bombadil]

Imagine that we want to do a meetup and we use DV to choose the location. How, exactly, can this be gamed? I honestly don't know.

Because someone could simply donate a bunch of money to send you all to a spot none of you want to go. This isn't hard to understand. Thus far DV has shown us that NSG likes 50 Shades of Grey and goats leading nations, do you actually think either of those are true?

Exactly, I live in HK so I'll donate as much to ensure I don't have to travel to St fuckin' Louis.. so it'll be just me in HK.. and it speaks to another thing, the external costs that are either more cost to everyone else or a one person meet up. If the goal is to get the maximum people to an event then BV is clearly better than DV.

If the goal of taxes is for the betterment of all then ibid your honour.

The truth is I'd actually go 'guys/gals.. why are we wasting money on voting for a location, let's just see what's best for us all?'

[Xerographica]

But it's not like I'm under the impression that anybody else is even trying to kick the tires.

Maybe that's telling you something.

Have you e-mailed any subject matter experts to ask them if there's any evidence that BV is better than DV? If not, then why not? Do you not care?

Have you, how's those results working for you?

Of course I have, which is why I'm still here. The experts that I've asked have not shared any evidence that BV is better than DV at ranking things. If you don't believe me, then ask them yourself.

Just think about it, if you asked people to name the best film ever the results would likely be along the lines of Citizen Kane or whatever I showed earlier. Ask what they'd pay for and you get the relative dross that is the top billing movies. What people recognise as quality and what they will pay for are not the same thing and generally people will pay for the trash, they won't buy the super healthy fruit and veggie yoghurt mix over, basically, 8 teaspoons of sugar with some cola.

You must know this is true.

I've already explained that buying and donating aren't the same thing.

And the reason you're doing it is you want to direct your taxes, which vastly skews to the rich over the poor.

Ask the experts whether congress is better than taxpayers at ranking things.

Otherwise, and I'm sorry dude, seems you've put a lot of dedication and effort into proving yourself right.. but you're just wrong.

Find some experts to confirm your conclusion. E-mailing experts is completely free and really easy. If you're not willing to do this, then please explain why.

[Xerographica]

Because someone could simply donate a bunch of money to send you all to a spot none of you want to go. This isn't hard to understand. Thus far DV has shown us that NSG likes 50 Shades of Grey and goats leading nations, do you actually think either of those are true?

NSG Meetup: Antarctica.
I won't be attending, but I'll definitely put money towards that.

How much?