Pragmatarian Discussion Thread

[Esternial]

"The only way this made any sense"

More pseudointellectual drivel. If you wanted to pretend play as a scientist I can confirm you've throroughly failed, because this kind of 'one track' mentalitity is just a few steps before committing scientific fraud. You don't even bother contemplating alternate reasons because doing so would inconvenience you and your purposes.

As a scientist, I can confirm. If you tried to publish any results you got here, it wouldn't even pass peer review.

Depends on the journal. If you have enough money you can get it published.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

More than 40 people, so it is a huge meetup. And there's about 10 streamers in our group, so it was a pretty intense inter-channel discussion about it over the next few days for plans for meetups across all 10 streamers' fanbases.

Thing is though, there were no votes, just arguments about what was the best option, and we all had to persuade everyone else who had the better ideas and the most effective ones to make the most of our time at TwitchCon. The plan is pretty setup right now tbh.

What difference would it have made if BV had been used to decide the location?

If BV would have been used we wouldn't have been able to have a discussion about it. There would have been one option and one option only for everyone, no matter how inconvenient it is for a fragment of the people at the meetup.

That would have hurt us more than it would have helped us. Because it would sour our experience at the event.

[The Holy Therns]

Your other fundamental problem with your system Xero is that you keep trying to apply your idea to everything.

More often than not, in social situations, compelling arguments and conflict resolutions are far more used than voting to reach a course of action.

Voting is use in very, very few situations as opposed to simply leadership methods and discourse.

Xero should send daily money to whoever produced his toilet so he can communicate how it's still useful for him to be able to poop. Yes, yes.

[Galloism]

Your other fundamental problem with your system Xero is that you keep trying to apply your idea to everything.

More often than not, in social situations, compelling arguments and conflict resolutions are far more used than voting to reach a course of action.

Voting is use in very, very few situations as opposed to simply leadership methods and discourse.

Xero should send daily money to whoever produced his toilet so he can communicate how it's still useful for him to be able to poop. Yes, yes.

You left this open, and so I'm just going to say that.

That's a super crappy idea.

[Xerographica]

What difference would it have made if BV had been used to decide the location?

If BV would have been used we wouldn't have been able to have a discussion about it.

BV and discussion aren't mutually exclusive.

There would have been one option and one option only for everyone, no matter how inconvenient it is for a fragment of the people at the meetup.

I don't know what you mean. With BV, everybody would nominate potential locations. Then they would discuss them. Lastly they would use BV to rank the potential locations.

[The Holy Therns]

Xero should send daily money to whoever produced his toilet so he can communicate how it's still useful for him to be able to poop. Yes, yes.

You left this open, and so I'm just going to say that.

That's a super crappy idea.

Oh sure, but what about the toilet thing tho?

[Galloism]

If BV would have been used we wouldn't have been able to have a discussion about it.

BV and discussion aren't mutually exclusive.

There would have been one option and one option only for everyone, no matter how inconvenient it is for a fragment of the people at the meetup.

I don't know what you mean. With BV, everybody would nominate potential locations. Then they would discuss them. Lastly they would use BV to rank the potential locations.

So here's an interesting question. If, during the meeting, Soldati suggests, say... St. Louis which no one had thought of before, but because they like Soldati a number of people follow his lead, even if they've never been to St. Louis before, are these legitimate votes?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If BV would have been used we wouldn't have been able to have a discussion about it.

BV and discussion aren't mutually exclusive.

There would have been one option and one option only for everyone, no matter how inconvenient it is for a fragment of the people at the meetup.

I don't know what you mean. With BV, everybody would nominate potential locations. Then they would discuss them. Lastly they would use BV to rank the potential locations.

But voting suggests the winning option wins, all of the time. Whoever makes the voting has to respect the decision of the majority, and the minority has to respect the decision of the majority. So there is no way to have multiple discussions about what would be convenient for everybody, let alone be able to tweak a plan because voting commits the losing party to follow the lead of the winners. Also, in my experience, voting tends to end all of discussion because there is a way to make your decision instead of arguing your points as to why something is a good or a bad idea.

Right now we have a very carefully drawn out plan as to how to most effectively put our time, money, and energy into doing activities for everyone at these meetups that are going to happen at TwitchCon. Which would have been impossible with voting.

Voting doesn't work as well as you think it does for much. If anything it is downright detrimental most of the time to hold decisions to a vote. 99% of all of your decisions in life will never come down to a vote, it will come down as to how well you can organize and argue your choice.

[Xerographica]

BV and discussion aren't mutually exclusive.


I don't know what you mean. With BV, everybody would nominate potential locations. Then they would discuss them. Lastly they would use BV to rank the potential locations.

But voting suggests the winning option wins, all of the time. Whoever makes the voting has to respect the decision of the majority, and the minority has to respect the decision of the majority. So there is no way to have multiple discussions about what would be convenient for everybody, let alone be able to tweak a plan because voting commits the losing party to follow the lead of the winners. Also, in my experience, voting tends to end all of discussion because there is a way to make your decision instead of arguing your points as to why something is a good or a bad idea.

Right now we have a very carefully drawn out plan as to how to most effectively put our time, money, and energy into doing activities for everyone at these meetups that are going to happen at TwitchCon. Which would have been impossible with voting.

Voting doesn't work as well as you think it does for much. If anything it is downright detrimental most of the time to hold decisions to a vote. 99% of all of your decisions in life will never come down to a vote, it will come down as to how well you can organize and argue your choice.

Clearly you think BV is defective for small groups. So why do you think it's effective for large groups?

[Galloism]

But voting suggests the winning option wins, all of the time. Whoever makes the voting has to respect the decision of the majority, and the minority has to respect the decision of the majority. So there is no way to have multiple discussions about what would be convenient for everybody, let alone be able to tweak a plan because voting commits the losing party to follow the lead of the winners. Also, in my experience, voting tends to end all of discussion because there is a way to make your decision instead of arguing your points as to why something is a good or a bad idea.

Right now we have a very carefully drawn out plan as to how to most effectively put our time, money, and energy into doing activities for everyone at these meetups that are going to happen at TwitchCon. Which would have been impossible with voting.

Voting doesn't work as well as you think it does for much. If anything it is downright detrimental most of the time to hold decisions to a vote. 99% of all of your decisions in life will never come down to a vote, it will come down as to how well you can organize and argue your choice.

Clearly you think BV is defective for small groups. So why do you think it's effective for large groups?

All systems have defects Xero. It's just yours is more defective than average.

BV and discussion aren't mutually exclusive.


I don't know what you mean. With BV, everybody would nominate potential locations. Then they would discuss them. Lastly they would use BV to rank the potential locations.

So here's an interesting question. If, during the meeting, Soldati suggests, say... St. Louis which no one had thought of before, but because they like Soldati a number of people follow his lead, even if they've never been to St. Louis before, are these legitimate votes?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

But voting suggests the winning option wins, all of the time. Whoever makes the voting has to respect the decision of the majority, and the minority has to respect the decision of the majority. So there is no way to have multiple discussions about what would be convenient for everybody, let alone be able to tweak a plan because voting commits the losing party to follow the lead of the winners. Also, in my experience, voting tends to end all of discussion because there is a way to make your decision instead of arguing your points as to why something is a good or a bad idea.

Right now we have a very carefully drawn out plan as to how to most effectively put our time, money, and energy into doing activities for everyone at these meetups that are going to happen at TwitchCon. Which would have been impossible with voting.

Voting doesn't work as well as you think it does for much. If anything it is downright detrimental most of the time to hold decisions to a vote. 99% of all of your decisions in life will never come down to a vote, it will come down as to how well you can organize and argue your choice.

Clearly you think BV is defective for small groups. So why do you think it's effective for large groups?

It's effective for large groups committing to a single decision. Single decisions that large groups need to commit on can be put on a vote.

For instance, legalizing marihuana, presidential elections, and so on. There is only one choice to be made, and a large group of people. Only one person can be president at a time, so voting for that president makes more sense.

Now, ballot voting is better at doing this as opposed to donation voting because it prevents biased presidents towards rich interests. If everyone has an equal say, then the president must commit to his constituency, not to plutocrats.

[Xerographica]

Clearly you think BV is defective for small groups. So why do you think it's effective for large groups?

It's effective for large groups committing to a single decision. Single decisions that large groups need to commit on can be put on a vote.

Small groups don't need to commit to single decisions?

[The Holy Therns]

Hey, Xero, quick question. Can you define the main flaws of your system?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's effective for large groups committing to a single decision. Single decisions that large groups need to commit on can be put on a vote.

Small groups don't need to commit to single decisions?

Small groups commit to single decisions differently though. The less members in a group the more feedback you can get through talking it out and/or having someone in charge as a leader and they get to make all the decisions.

Small groups don't necessarily vote, because there's not as much noise to be filtered out.

[Senkaku]

Hey, Xero, quick question. Can you define the main flaws of your system?

You're going to get a long-winded version of "it's just too brilliant and good for this cruel, cruel world"

[Grenartia]

If you refuse to allow your hypothesis to be falsified in the course of the experiment, then you're not doing science. Seriously, Xero, stop clogging up NSG with this shit, and when you get out of high school, go to college and get a degree in sociology or poli sci, and get a university to pay for your research. Just don't whine and cry when you try to publish your results, and it fails peer review.

[Bombadil]

If you refuse to allow your hypothesis to be falsified in the course of the experiment, then you're not doing science. Seriously, Xero, stop clogging up NSG with this shit, and when you get out of high school, go to college and get a degree in sociology or poli sci, and get a university to pay for your research. Just don't whine and cry when you try to publish your results, and it fails peer review.

I've often wondered as to Xero's age, at times thinking he's possibly in autumnal years and others thinking at high school - but I'm sure I read in one of his many missives to academics around the world that he attended UCLA 'many years ago' so I suspect he's older.

[Grenartia]

If you refuse to allow your hypothesis to be falsified in the course of the experiment, then you're not doing science. Seriously, Xero, stop clogging up NSG with this shit, and when you get out of high school, go to college and get a degree in sociology or poli sci, and get a university to pay for your research. Just don't whine and cry when you try to publish your results, and it fails peer review.

I've often wondered as to Xero's age, at times thinking he's possibly in autumnal years and others thinking at high school - but I'm sure I read in one of his many missives to academics around the world that he attended UCLA 'many years ago' so I suspect he's older.

I find that hard to believe, or else we wouldn't have to keep explaining this basic shit to him.

[Bombadil]

I've often wondered as to Xero's age, at times thinking he's possibly in autumnal years and others thinking at high school - but I'm sure I read in one of his many missives to academics around the world that he attended UCLA 'many years ago' so I suspect he's older.

I find that hard to believe, or else we wouldn't have to keep explaining this basic shit to him.

Well I think there's a fair degree of cross talking, I imagine he feels he has to keep explaining basic shit as well.. but I think the key to understanding him is that he's a 'why should my taxes pay for other people' Austrian economist. Hence all this DV vs BV is really just a means to direct his taxes to what he wants.

If that's your core belief then any evidence is unlikely to shake you.

[Xerographica]

If you refuse to allow your hypothesis to be falsified in the course of the experiment, then you're not doing science. Seriously, Xero, stop clogging up NSG with this shit, and when you get out of high school, go to college and get a degree in sociology or poli sci, and get a university to pay for your research. Just don't whine and cry when you try to publish your results, and it fails peer review.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to get a degree in economics?

[Xerographica]

Hey, Xero, quick question. Can you define the main flaws of your system?

I can't think of any.

[Washington Resistance Army]

If you refuse to allow your hypothesis to be falsified in the course of the experiment, then you're not doing science. Seriously, Xero, stop clogging up NSG with this shit, and when you get out of high school, go to college and get a degree in sociology or poli sci, and get a university to pay for your research. Just don't whine and cry when you try to publish your results, and it fails peer review.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate to get a degree in economics?

Not really, this is more a sociology type thing.

[Xerographica]

I find that hard to believe, or else we wouldn't have to keep explaining this basic shit to him.

Well I think there's a fair degree of cross talking, I imagine he feels he has to keep explaining basic shit as well.. but I think the key to understanding him is that he's a 'why should my taxes pay for other people' Austrian economist. Hence all this DV vs BV is really just a means to direct his taxes to what he wants.

If that's your core belief then any evidence is unlikely to shake you.

But it's not like I'm under the impression that anybody else is even trying to kick the tires. Have you e-mailed any subject matter experts to ask them if there's any evidence that BV is better than DV? If not, then why not? Do you not care?

[Petrolheadia]

Well I think there's a fair degree of cross talking, I imagine he feels he has to keep explaining basic shit as well.. but I think the key to understanding him is that he's a 'why should my taxes pay for other people' Austrian economist. Hence all this DV vs BV is really just a means to direct his taxes to what he wants.

If that's your core belief then any evidence is unlikely to shake you.

But it's not like I'm under the impression that anybody else is even trying to kick the tires. Have you e-mailed any subject matter experts to ask them if there's any evidence that BV is better than DV? If not, then why not? Do you not care?

We kicked tires, took a test drive and it was loudly knocking.

And we did not need a mechanic to tell us that.

[Xerographica]

But it's not like I'm under the impression that anybody else is even trying to kick the tires. Have you e-mailed any subject matter experts to ask them if there's any evidence that BV is better than DV? If not, then why not? Do you not care?

We kicked tires, took a test drive and it was loudly knocking.

And we did not need a mechanic to tell us that.

What's the harm in asking a mechanic what's wrong with the car? It's not like it costs anything to e-mail some professor.