Puerto Rico and the UN

[Gaine Moon]

Puerto Rico is about $74 billion in debt. With all that debt, would their state government be able to function? If so, then they should become a state. If not, I don't think so.

[Auze]

Puerto Ricians seem to not want that.

Irrelevant. I don't believe in the doctrine of popular sovereignty.

Irrelevant, it's kinda important here.

Puerto Rico is about $74 billion in debt. With all that debt, would their state government be able to function? If so, then they should become a state. If not, I don't think so.

Considering that they have more people than Wyoming, they should be brought in as a state.

[Gaine Moon]

Um no. Like you’re ideas in the Dino thread this is also dumb

So you'd rather see a culture get absorbed into American culture? Are you an imperialist or something? I mean what about all the Hispanic people with cultural heritage living on the island? You want to start a riot that would only effect and diminish a beautiful culture? Like Internationalist Bastard said modern day Puerto Rico is just fine and doesn't need anymore U.S interaction then it already has.

Ideally, America should have one culture. I'm not talking about race or religion, but simply culture. However, considering there is already a vast Puerto Rican diaspora across the United States, I doubt statehood alone would erase its culture and heritage. So, I disagree with your point about its culture being "absorbed".

Considering that they have more people than Wisconsin, they should be brought in as a state.

A state government would have to house all those people, educate their children, rebuild everything destroyed or damaged in the recent hurricane, and do everything that a state government would need to do.

[Auze]

So you'd rather see a culture get absorbed into American culture? Are you an imperialist or something? I mean what about all the Hispanic people with cultural heritage living on the island? You want to start a riot that would only effect and diminish a beautiful culture? Like Internationalist Bastard said modern day Puerto Rico is just fine and doesn't need anymore U.S interaction then it already has.

Ideally, America should have one culture. I'm not talking about race or religion, but simply culture. However, considering there is already a vast Puerto Rican diaspora across the United States, I doubt statehood alone would erase its culture and heritage. So, I disagree with your point about its culture being "absorbed".

Of course, the regions already have different cultures. I don't think we should erase the creole cultures like the Gullah, anyway.

[Gaine Moon]

Ideally, America should have one culture. I'm not talking about race or religion, but simply culture. However, considering there is already a vast Puerto Rican diaspora across the United States, I doubt statehood alone would erase its culture and heritage. So, I disagree with your point about its culture being "absorbed".

Of course, the regions already have different cultures. I don't think we should erase the creole cultures like the Gullah, anyway.

Considering the Gullah culture was born in the American south, I believe it is American in culture.

[Gaine Moon]

Of course, the regions already have different cultures. I don't think we should erase the creole cultures like the Gullah, anyway.

Considering the Gullah culture was born in the American south, I believe it is American in culture.

Also, I'm not saying the US government should actively erase other cultures, I just think they should assimilate into American culture.

[Petrolheadia]

Puerto Ricians seem to not want that.

Irrelevant. I don't believe in the doctrine of popular sovereignty.

We do, however, believe, that the island is guarded by the world's greatest army, which respects the popular sovereignty, and if the Spanish do a damn thing, they'll get their asses on a platter, and that it is rather asinine to tell actual Americans they are Spanish.

[Thermodolia]

Puerto Ricians seem to not want that.

Irrelevant. I don't believe in the doctrine of popular sovereignty.

Spain lost the war. They don’t deserve shit.

[Thermodolia]

Puerto Rico is about $74 billion in debt. With all that debt, would their state government be able to function? If so, then they should become a state. If not, I don't think so.

The Federal government actually takes on state debt if they default

[Gaine Moon]

Puerto Rico is about $74 billion in debt. With all that debt, would their state government be able to function? If so, then they should become a state. If not, I don't think so.

The Federal government actually takes on state debt if they default

Doesn't the Federal government have enough debt as it is?

[Old Tyrannia]

Irrelevant. I don't believe in the doctrine of popular sovereignty.

We do, however, believe, that the island is guarded by the world's greatest army, which respects the popular sovereignty, and if the Spanish do a damn thing, they'll get their asses on a platter,

I merely stated what I believe should happen. I am under no illusions with regards to its likelihood.

and that it is rather asinine to tell actual Americans they are Spanish.

They may be regarded as Americans under US law, but that means nothing to me.

Irrelevant. I don't believe in the doctrine of popular sovereignty.

Spain lost the war. They don’t deserve shit.

"Might makes right," then. Classy. I suspect that if a country you didn't like were to invade and annex the territory of its neighbour, your attitude would be different.

[Petrolheadia]

We do, however, believe, that the island is guarded by the world's greatest army, which respects the popular sovereignty, and if the Spanish do a damn thing, they'll get their asses on a platter,

I merely stated what I believe should happen. I am under no illusions with regards to its likelihood.

Mostly because your point is "I don't give a shit about any rational point".

[Thermodolia]

We do, however, believe, that the island is guarded by the world's greatest army, which respects the popular sovereignty, and if the Spanish do a damn thing, they'll get their asses on a platter,

I merely stated what I believe should happen. I am under no illusions with regards to its likelihood.

and that it is rather asinine to tell actual Americans they are Spanish.

They may be regarded as Americans under US law, but that means nothing to me.

Spain lost the war. They don’t deserve shit.

"Might makes right," then. Classy. I suspect that if a country you didn't like were to invade and annex the territory of its neighbour, your attitude would be different.

That assumes I gave a shit about it’s neighbor. Also if PR goes back to Spain than so should Gibraltar

[Thermodolia]

The Federal government actually takes on state debt if they default

Doesn't the Federal government have enough debt as it is?

$74 Billion isn’t gonna make a difference

[Old Tyrannia]

I merely stated what I believe should happen. I am under no illusions with regards to its likelihood.

They may be regarded as Americans under US law, but that means nothing to me.

"Might makes right," then. Classy. I suspect that if a country you didn't like were to invade and annex the territory of its neighbour, your attitude would be different.

That assumes I gave a shit about it’s neighbor. Also if PR goes back to Spain than so should Gibraltar

Gibraltar was not seized in a naked war of aggression. Puerto Rico was.

[Gaine Moon]

We do, however, believe, that the island is guarded by the world's greatest army, which respects the popular sovereignty, and if the Spanish do a damn thing, they'll get their asses on a platter,

I merely stated what I believe should happen. I am under no illusions with regards to its likelihood.

and that it is rather asinine to tell actual Americans they are Spanish.

They may be regarded as Americans under US law, but that means nothing to me.

Spain lost the war. They don’t deserve shit.

"Might makes right," then. Classy. I suspect that if a country you didn't like were to invade and annex the territory of its neighbour, your attitude would be different.

They aren't regarded as Americans, they are Americans

[Petrolheadia]

That assumes I gave a shit about it’s neighbor. Also if PR goes back to Spain than so should Gibraltar

Gibraltar was not seized in a naked war of aggression. Puerto Rico was.

And a 120+ years later, Puerto Ricans are Americans, and the Spanish can't even take the island.

In other words, PR is American by culture and by force, and Spanish by "gib bacc".

[Gaine Moon]

That assumes I gave a shit about it’s neighbor. Also if PR goes back to Spain than so should Gibraltar

Gibraltar was not seized in a naked war of aggression. Puerto Rico was.

So why don't we give Texas back to Mexico? Or why not all of North America to the pre-Columbian civlizations?

[Old Tyrannia]

I merely stated what I believe should happen. I am under no illusions with regards to its likelihood.

They may be regarded as Americans under US law, but that means nothing to me.

"Might makes right," then. Classy. I suspect that if a country you didn't like were to invade and annex the territory of its neighbour, your attitude would be different.

They aren't regarded as Americans, they are Americans

Only by decree of the island's occupiers. History has demonstrated that Puerto Ricans themselves have no particular qualms with switching their allegiance according to convenience, so claims that they "want to be American" fall rather flat.

Gibraltar was not seized in a naked war of aggression. Puerto Rico was.

So why don't we give Texas back to Mexico?

I mean, I wouldn't object to that. It'd be even less practical at present than returning Puerto Rico to Spain, however.

Texas will probably end up Mexican again at some point in the future anyway if current demographic trends continue.

Or why not all of North America to the pre-Columbian civlizations?

They no longer exist as sovereign political entities whilst the Spanish Crown clearly does.

[Post War America]

Puerto Ricians seem to not want that.

Irrelevant. I don't believe in the doctrine of popular sovereignty.

Spain has enough problems with nationalist movements already without adding another one.

[Auze]

That assumes I gave a shit about it’s neighbor. Also if PR goes back to Spain than so should Gibraltar

Gibraltar was not seized in a naked war of aggression. Puerto Rico was.

Seems like it.

In 1704, Anglo-Dutch forces captured Gibraltar from Spain during the War of the Spanish Succession on behalf of the Habsburg claim to the Spanish throne. The territory was ceded to Great Britain in perpetuity under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713.

[Old Tyrannia]

Gibraltar was not seized in a naked war of aggression. Puerto Rico was.

Seems like it.

In 1704, Anglo-Dutch forces captured Gibraltar from Spain during the War of the Spanish Succession on behalf of the Habsburg claim to the Spanish throne. The territory was ceded to Great Britain in perpetuity under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713.

Except obviously not, because the War of the Spanish Succession was not an imperialistic campaign on the part of the British but an intervention in a succession dispute. Gibraltar was ceded to the British in good faith in return for recognising Philip V as King of Spain. The Spanish-American War was launched purely in order for the United States to seize Spanish territories on a flimsy pretext.

[Gaine Moon]

History has demonstrated that Puerto Ricans themselves have no particular qualms with switching their allegiance according to convenience, so claims that they "want to be American" fall rather flat.

Puerto Rico has been part of the USA for 120 years, and never once have their government or people expressed a desire to return to being a Spanish colony.

[Gaine Moon]

Seems like it.

Except obviously not, because the War of the Spanish Succession was not an imperialistic campaign on the part of the British but an intervention in a succession dispute. Gibraltar was ceded to the British in good faith in return for recognising Philip V as King of Spain. The Spanish-American War was launched purely in order for the United States to seize Spanish territories on a flimsy pretext.

And why would the British want to intervene in a soveriegn nation's succession dispute? Imperialism by another name.

[Old Tyrannia]

History has demonstrated that Puerto Ricans themselves have no particular qualms with switching their allegiance according to convenience, so claims that they "want to be American" fall rather flat.

Puerto Rico has been part of the USA for 120 years, and never once have their government or people expressed a desire to return to being a Spanish colony.

Probably because it has been convenient for them to remain a US territory (not a "part" of the United States- Puerto Rico is an unincorporated territory, meaning that the United States itself does not regard Puerto Rico as being legally part of the US). Puerto Ricans were enthusiastically pro-Spanish until it became clear that the US was going to win.

"I have never seen such a servile, ungrateful country [i.e., Puerto Rico].... In twenty-four hours, the people of Puerto Rico went from being fervently Spanish to enthusiastically American.... They humiliated themselves, giving in to the invader as the slave bows to the powerful lord."
- Julio Cervera Baviera, Spanish soldier in the Puerto Rico campaign

Except obviously not, because the War of the Spanish Succession was not an imperialistic campaign on the part of the British but an intervention in a succession dispute. Gibraltar was ceded to the British in good faith in return for recognising Philip V as King of Spain. The Spanish-American War was launched purely in order for the United States to seize Spanish territories on a flimsy pretext.

And why would the British want to intervene in a soveriegn nation's succession dispute? Imperialism by another name.

Because the outcome of said dispute threatened to radically alter the balance of power in Europe, and the opposing candidate- a French prince- was openly supported by Britain's main rival France.