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Are tanks worth it?

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Isilanka
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Postby Isilanka » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:13 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Isilanka wrote:I think we'll still need the heavies for quite some time.

In a way the debate around tanks is quite similar to the debate around manned jet fighters. Both are expensive to build and maintain and both have proved quite unnefective in asymetric conflicts. However, a weapon system is only viable or not in relative terms, depending on what you use it for and the doctrine of your army. For fighting another conventional army, you still need tanks. I don't think we have yet reached the point where weapons are so effective powerful and heavily armored vehicles aren't useful anymore.
I mean IFVs and stuff are very effective but they are heavily fragile, one shouldn't overestimate them. They're very useful but they can't be the be all and end all of the battlefield.

I haven’t seen a heavy tank in action but I know an rpg can take out every thing I have seen in action short of a plane


Depends. Tanks have been seen to shrug off rpg rounds in asymetric conflicts (see above about the Challenger 2). The problem is that rpgs still have a lower range than tanks (and in fact even anti-tank long-range missiles like Milan missiles). Not saying tanks are impervious to rpgs or even improvised weapon, without even talking of the nasty anti-tank stuff modern infantry can carry, but a heavy tank is still a hard nut to crack, especially if used correctly.

That being said I'm playing the armchair strategist here, so if someone with military experience wants to correct me, I'll gladly accept it.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:13 am

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:15 am

Isilanka wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:I haven’t seen a heavy tank in action but I know an rpg can take out every thing I have seen in action short of a plane


Depends. Tanks have been seen to shrug off rpg rounds in asymetric conflicts (see above about the Challenger 2). The problem is that rpgs still have a lower range than tanks (and in fact even anti-tank long-range missiles like Milan missiles). Not saying tanks are impervious to rpgs or even improvised weapon, without even talking of the nasty anti-tank stuff modern infantry can carry, but a heavy tank is still a hard nut to crack, especially if used correctly.

I suppose
Still I feel like a solid ambush with anti armor will take a tank down faster and easier then another tank
Maybe I’m just biased from experience
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:15 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:I suppose
Still I feel like a solid ambush with anti armor will take a tank down faster and easier then another tank
Maybe I’m just biased from experience

Ambush being the operative word, here.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:17 am

No, they are not.

We need to invest in those Tripods from Steven Spielberg's War of the Worlds instead.
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Engleberg
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Postby Engleberg » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:17 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Engleberg wrote:The technology of the tank has improved over the 100 years of its existence, and today our main battle tanks are the most advanced they have ever been. Rounds capable of penetrating 500+ mm of armour, composite armour made to withstand these rounds, technology that allows them to see in the dark, etc. As with every form of technology, they will continue to advance until they cannot advance any further and become obsolete. I do not see this happening within the next 30 years, but by 2050 who knows what'll exist.

But in today's world, tanks and other armoured vehicles are necessary. War will not go away anytime soon, and it's always good to have some depleted uranium between you and the enemy.

Thing is, you don’t need to penetrate 500mm of armor
Most combat is infantry or air, the actual need for a tank seems minimal, at least in the ears we’re fighting


Right now the need for the tank is low, since these wars have been against combatants without modern equipment or organisation. In these wars, the IFV and other light armoured vehicles are perfect for transporting and supporting infantry. However when the enemy is Russia or China, with modern technology on par with the US/UK/France/Germany/etc., then you'll need that 500 mm of penetration. But until that happens, I do agree that a main battle tank should not be the focus in these "smaller" engagements.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:18 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:I suppose
Still I feel like a solid ambush with anti armor will take a tank down faster and easier then another tank
Maybe I’m just biased from experience

Ambush being the operative word, here.

Easier then you think
Anyplace big enough to hide a team can ambush rather well, especially a vehicle
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Postby Purpelia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:22 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Ambush being the operative word, here.

Easier then you think
Anyplace big enough to hide a team can ambush rather well, especially a vehicle

Only if that vehicle is being used in a very retarded way. And I mean that literally not as another word for stupidity. It takes the tank being used as armies did before they figured out how tanks are supposed to work for that to happen.

Popper use of tanks will see them being escorted by other tanks and infantry that can spot ambushes, identify and clear any dangerous looking area and support by indirect fire when needed. And than it becomes really hard to ambush a tank even in a city.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:23 am

Tank technology is constantly evolving. I think we will continue to see tanks into the foreseeable future, albeit in a very different form.
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Postby Hurdergaryp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:24 am

Conserative Morality wrote:Until infantry acquire weapons able to take out tanks from the same distance tanks can, tanks will be needed to eliminate other tanks and steamroll light vehicles.

Attack helicopters, which are pretty much flying tank destroyers, can perform that task as well. Concentrations of armored vehicles can be seriously crippled by continually repositioning mechanized artillery. There are several ways to neutralize the armored beast.

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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:24 am

Hurdergaryp wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Until infantry acquire weapons able to take out tanks from the same distance tanks can, tanks will be needed to eliminate other tanks and steamroll light vehicles.

Attack helicopters, which are pretty much flying tank destroyers, can perform that task as well. Concentrations of armored vehicles can be seriously crippled by continually repositioning mechanized artillery. There are several ways to neutralize the armored beast.

Except that the people with tanks should have those as well. And it's better to have those and tanks than to have those without tanks.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:25 am

Hurdergaryp wrote:Attack helicopters, which are pretty much flying tank destroyers, can perform that task as well. Concentrations of armored vehicles can be seriously crippled by continually repositioning mechanized artillery. There are several ways to neutralize the armored beast.

Attack helicopters are extremely vulnerable to both infantry and aircraft in a way tanks are not. And the power of artillery is often overstated, usually by artillerymen. The way they tell it they control the battlefield all on their lonesome.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:25 am

Purpelia wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Easier then you think
Anyplace big enough to hide a team can ambush rather well, especially a vehicle

Only if that vehicle is being used in a very retarded way. And I mean that literally not as another word for stupidity. It takes the tank being used as armies did before they figured out how tanks are supposed to work for that to happen.

Popper use of tanks will see them being escorted by other tanks and infantry that can spot ambushes, identify and clear any dangerous looking area and support by indirect fire when needed. And than it becomes really hard to ambush a tank even in a city.

Without a good infantry screen that’s being very thorough, they’d be fucked. I’ll grant you that a disciplined army not fighting urban conflict can keep a tank alive
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Hurdergaryp
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Postby Hurdergaryp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:26 am

Purpelia wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:Attack helicopters, which are pretty much flying tank destroyers, can perform that task as well. Concentrations of armored vehicles can be seriously crippled by continually repositioning mechanized artillery. There are several ways to neutralize the armored beast.

Except that the people with tanks should have those as well. And it's better to have those and tanks than to have those without tanks.

That is the doctrine most modern armies subscribe to, yes.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:27 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:Attack helicopters, which are pretty much flying tank destroyers, can perform that task as well. Concentrations of armored vehicles can be seriously crippled by continually repositioning mechanized artillery. There are several ways to neutralize the armored beast.

Attack helicopters are extremely vulnerable to both infantry and aircraft in a way tanks are not. And the power of artillery is often overstated, usually by artillerymen. The way they tell it they control the battlefield all on their lonesome.


We do.

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:28 am

Purpelia wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Easier then you think
Anyplace big enough to hide a team can ambush rather well, especially a vehicle

Only if that vehicle is being used in a very retarded way. And I mean that literally not as another word for stupidity. It takes the tank being used as armies did before they figured out how tanks are supposed to work for that to happen.

Popper use of tanks will see them being escorted by other tanks and infantry that can spot ambushes, identify and clear any dangerous looking area and support by indirect fire when needed. And than it becomes really hard to ambush a tank even in a city.

Better yet level the city with thousands of tons of bombs. No city, no ambush
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:28 am

My favorite part of this thread is the dick measuring contest between the medic, the infantry, and the artillery on the first page.
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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:29 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Only if that vehicle is being used in a very retarded way. And I mean that literally not as another word for stupidity. It takes the tank being used as armies did before they figured out how tanks are supposed to work for that to happen.

Popper use of tanks will see them being escorted by other tanks and infantry that can spot ambushes, identify and clear any dangerous looking area and support by indirect fire when needed. And than it becomes really hard to ambush a tank even in a city.

Better yet level the city with thousands of tons of bombs. No city, no ambush

Funny.
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Engleberg
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Postby Engleberg » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:29 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Only if that vehicle is being used in a very retarded way. And I mean that literally not as another word for stupidity. It takes the tank being used as armies did before they figured out how tanks are supposed to work for that to happen.

Popper use of tanks will see them being escorted by other tanks and infantry that can spot ambushes, identify and clear any dangerous looking area and support by indirect fire when needed. And than it becomes really hard to ambush a tank even in a city.

Better yet level the city with thousands of tons of bombs. No city, no ambush


Nah, do it properly.

5 MT nuke'll take everyone out.

Nobody left, no fight.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:29 am

Conserative Morality wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:Attack helicopters, which are pretty much flying tank destroyers, can perform that task as well. Concentrations of armored vehicles can be seriously crippled by continually repositioning mechanized artillery. There are several ways to neutralize the armored beast.

Attack helicopters are extremely vulnerable to both infantry and aircraft in a way tanks are not. And the power of artillery is often overstated, usually by artillerymen. The way they tell it they control the battlefield all on their lonesome.

Yeah
Jokes aside Mobile Infantry is the main foundation of a modern army. I can see tanks being useful to guard the IFVs, armored cars etc against a similar force
On the scale of wars we’re fighting though, I’d stay a way
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:29 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Only if that vehicle is being used in a very retarded way. And I mean that literally not as another word for stupidity. It takes the tank being used as armies did before they figured out how tanks are supposed to work for that to happen.

Popper use of tanks will see them being escorted by other tanks and infantry that can spot ambushes, identify and clear any dangerous looking area and support by indirect fire when needed. And than it becomes really hard to ambush a tank even in a city.

Without a good infantry screen that’s being very thorough, they’d be fucked. I’ll grant you that a disciplined army not fighting urban conflict can keep a tank alive

Even in cities, indeed especially in cities tanks are indefensible. Having something that can flat out drive through a wall, blast holes into buildings and demolish all in its path all the while providing cover against snipers and machineguns is incredibly useful. Which is why every single urban battle since tanks existed has featured them prominently.

I don't really get where this myth of tanks not working in cities comes from.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:30 am

Sahansahiye Iran wrote:My favorite part of this thread is the dick measuring contest between the medic, the infantry, and the artillery on the first page.

It keeps me through my day
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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:30 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:As former infantry I can give my pure unbiased opinion that tanks are dumb and people who drive them smell their own farts

Tanks are fucking awesome, how dare you IB, i used to like you, but now...
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Postby North Arkana » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:31 am

Is armored, protected, mobile firepower still worth it? Oh hell yes it is.

Where're my armored cav boys at?
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Hurdergaryp
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Postby Hurdergaryp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:31 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:Attack helicopters are extremely vulnerable to both infantry and aircraft in a way tanks are not. And the power of artillery is often overstated, usually by artillerymen. The way they tell it they control the battlefield all on their lonesome.

We do.

A common statement about artillery is that it's the king of the battlefield. This is incorrect. It would be more correct to speak of artillery as the vengeful god of the battlefield, unleashing its wrath upon its hapless targets as if Ares himself was suffering from explosive diarrhea.

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