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Italy turns away ship of 600 illegal migrants

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:30 am

Eclius wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As I said, I'm interested in hearing your reasoning. You might say that your logic is simple, but the world quite clearly does not work that way. Most, if not all countries do spend money on non-citizens in one way or another, or have committed sincerely to do so in various circumstances. A large majority of countries, including Italy, are party to the Convention for the Safety Of Life At Sea. Why is the whole world ignoring your supposedly simple logic?

They're helping poor countries out of "sincerity" they're helping them to extend their political influence.

If it's in a country's political interests to help other countries then you're going to need a lot more than "It's simple logic" to argue that they should act contrary to their interests.
And as aforementioned, not every nation can afford to do that, you can't expect a nation like Italy to give away foreign aid money in billions and billions.

But Italy does give aid to foreign countries, and accept refugees, and help ships in distress, even if they're not Italian. You know, excepting this incident. If your logic is so simple, how did these conventions even come about?
In terms of Convention for the Safety Of Life At Sea, it's a treaty that sets minimum safety standard for commercial ships, it did not say you have to protect economic migrants.

The Aquarius is a ship.

At sea.

And the people aboard her are alive.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:32 am

Eclius wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Then you are forcing a false dilemma.

You can spend your money however you want to, thats not my business. If I choose and lots of other people to choose to help people not in there own nation, it's our right to choose.

It's not a false dilemma, help your own citizens until the poverty issue is resolved, then extend your political influence by foreign aids. I'm saying, rather than spending money on both, resolve one issue at a time for better efficiency.

Heres the problem, the poverty issue will never be fully solved. To wait around until that is fully resolved means untold millions are dieing in places the west has made a hell hole out of.

You made the mess, you clean it up.

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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:35 am

Salus Maior wrote:I think it's pretty clear that Europe has already taken in enough refugees. Perhaps it is time that they started saying no.

Who else should take them?

And before you say 'the neighbours', keep in mind that 1/4th of the population of Jordan is currently comprised of refugees from Syria...

Many of them already are, we're in the biggest movement of people for humanitarian reasons since WWII, it's not as simple as 'take em all' or 'turn them all back'.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:39 am

Eclius wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Then you are forcing a false dilemma.

You can spend your money however you want to, thats not my business. If I choose and lots of other people to choose to help people not in there own nation, it's our right to choose.

It's not a false dilemma, help your own citizens until the poverty issue is resolved, then extend your political influence by foreign aids. I'm saying, rather than spending money on both, resolve one issue at a time for better efficiency.

That wouldn't be more efficient. That would be a huge waste. Governments are big organisations and with loads of money and workers. You may as well suggest that it's more efficient to type with one finger at a time.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:41 am

Eclius wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Both are equal in importance. Both deal with people's lives. Life is equal no mater where they are.

So lemme ask you a question. You have say $10, 000 on hand, one of your parents is sick, and need $10, 000 for surgery, while there's some migrant in Europe who needs $5000. Would you split the money to migrant so your parent can no longer afford surgery, or would you ignore the migrant so your parent can afford a life-saving surgery (I know health care is free in Canada, but pretend it's not)

Spend 5 grand on migrant, get a loan for 5 grand, spend 10 grand on parent.

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Eclius
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Postby Eclius » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:46 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Eclius wrote:So lemme ask you a question. You have say $10, 000 on hand, one of your parents is sick, and need $10, 000 for surgery, while there's some migrant in Europe who needs $5000. Would you split the money to migrant so your parent can no longer afford surgery, or would you ignore the migrant so your parent can afford a life-saving surgery (I know health care is free in Canada, but pretend it's not)

Spend 5 grand on migrant, get a loan for 5 grand, spend 10 grand on parent.

lol, tbh, I highly doubt anyone would do that irl. You'd go into debt, then work our butt off day in and day out to give money to a migrant
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Eclius
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Postby Eclius » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:47 am

Ifreann wrote:
Eclius wrote:It's not a false dilemma, help your own citizens until the poverty issue is resolved, then extend your political influence by foreign aids. I'm saying, rather than spending money on both, resolve one issue at a time for better efficiency.

That wouldn't be more efficient. That would be a huge waste. Governments are big organisations and with loads of money and workers. You may as well suggest that it's more efficient to type with one finger at a time.

Up at this point, I don't even want to argue anymore, this is dragging on forever, not going anywhere and is pointless. For the one final time, charity begins at home, deal with domestic issues first.
We do NOT use NS stats since it's not the most accurate reflection
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||Local man sent to hospital after eating a pack of 14 years old Kraft mac'n cheese||Schools to resume operation in coming weeks||All domestic flights resumed||10% off vacation to Democratic East Asia today, book yours today!||

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:48 am

Gospel Power wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Both are equal in importance. Both deal with people's lives. Life is equal no mater where they are.

So they don't need to risk their lifes and try to enter Europe with those boats, they can stay in their countries :)


Stay in Syria where that fuck Assad can gas them? Nah.

Fahran wrote:Is Osama Bin Laden's life equal to yours? What about Hitler's life? Should the Italian government treat you and Osama Bin Laden the same?

*cue music*
And congratulations! We have the first case of Goodwins law in this thread! You win a big invisible cookie!

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Great Minarchistan
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Postby Great Minarchistan » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:48 am

Ifreann wrote:How big do you think this boat is?

How many boats do you think that Europe has taken over the last years?

Ifreann wrote:Because otherwise they'll die.

Duh.

It's their fault, nobody asked them to cross a dangerous sea and, the best thing of all, believe that they would be well received in a nation that is done with receiving so many refugees that generate a permanent drain on the society.
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Gospel Power
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Postby Gospel Power » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:49 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Gospel Power wrote:So they don't need to risk their lifes and try to enter Europe with those boats, they can stay in their countries :)


Stay in Syria where that fuck Assad can gas them? Nah.

Fahran wrote:Is Osama Bin Laden's life equal to yours? What about Hitler's life? Should the Italian government treat you and Osama Bin Laden the same?

*cue music*
And congratulations! We have the first case of Goodwins law in this thread! You win a big invisible cookie!

No I was speaking about the Africans
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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:49 am

Eclius wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Spend 5 grand on migrant, get a loan for 5 grand, spend 10 grand on parent.

lol, tbh, I highly doubt anyone would do that irl. You'd go into debt, then work our butt off day in and day out to give money to a migrant


If I had ten grand, that means I have the means to get more money.

I solved the puzzle with no casualtys.

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Eclius
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Postby Eclius » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:49 am

Fahran wrote:Is Osama Bin Laden's life equal to yours? What about Hitler's life? Should the Italian government treat you and Osama Bin Laden the same?

Ok, I don't agree with Herp and Ifreann, but that was not a good argument. The migrants are not war criminals, you can't draw comparison in that sense.
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The East Marches II
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Postby The East Marches II » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:50 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Republic of Fore wrote:It's not for the lulz. It's because Italy has no reason to take them.

Basic human decency is a reason, even if you personally place no value on the concept.
"Boo hoo their country sucks". So does most of planet earth. International courts can cry all they want. Send them home.

This is an infantile view of how the world works and I'm rapidly losing interest in dealing with it. Italy is not going to just ignore international law. They won't. No matter how badly you want them to, they won't, because paying for all the refugees ever would be less hassle than being a European North Korea, or worse, a second Nazi Germany.


The much vaunted rule enforcing ability of the EU. The same group of mediocrities that couldn't even enforce basic banking law and was so pathetic they had to bribe Mr. Erdogan. There is no fear of becoming a pariah by crossing an even more irrelevant treaty if they can drive a truck through the other ones :^)

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:51 am

Cedoria wrote:Who else should take them?

If they're economic migrants, as many of them are, and not at risk of starvation, nobody. They should stay in their own countries. If they're refugees, countries with a similar culture that are capable of supporting them without difficulty. It makes more sense for someone from the Sahel region to go to Nigeria than for them to go to Tunisia or Algeria than to go to Italy.

Cedoria wrote:And before you say 'the neighbours', keep in mind that 1/4th of the population of Jordan is currently comprised of refugees from Syria...

True. I'd start putting them in the Gulf States, except they refuse to anything that doesn't directly benefit their rulers and the conditions are abysmal. That being the case, distribute genuine refugees equally across member-states of the UN. If anyone refuses, sanction them. If the immigrants refuse to integrate to a reasonable degree and can't be supported, send them back to Assad.

Cedoria wrote:Many of them already are, we're in the biggest movement of people for humanitarian reasons since WWII, it's not as simple as 'take em all' or 'turn them all back'.

Oh, it definitely isn't.

Eclius wrote:Ok, I don't agree with Herp and Ifreann, but that was not a good argument. The migrants are not war criminals, you can't draw comparison in that sense.

The comparison was for dramatic effect. People are not the same from a subjective point of view. I value my parents over my neighbors. I value my neighbors over other Americans. I value my way of life over other ways of life. Most people here do as well. My point was to refute the notion that we should or even can treat all people equally solely because they're people.
Last edited by Fahran on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:52 am

Gospel Power wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Stay in Syria where that fuck Assad can gas them? Nah.


*cue music*
And congratulations! We have the first case of Goodwins law in this thread! You win a big invisible cookie!

No I was speaking about the Africans


Like they have it any better.

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Eclius
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Postby Eclius » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:53 am

Cedoria wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:I think it's pretty clear that Europe has already taken in enough refugees. Perhaps it is time that they started saying no.

Who else should take them?

And before you say 'the neighbours', keep in mind that 1/4th of the population of Jordan is currently comprised of refugees from Syria...

Many of them already are, we're in the biggest movement of people for humanitarian reasons since WWII, it's not as simple as 'take em all' or 'turn them all back'.

Well, if it's not a simple "take em all" or "take them back" what decides who gets to stay and who must go?
We do NOT use NS stats since it's not the most accurate reflection
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||Local man sent to hospital after eating a pack of 14 years old Kraft mac'n cheese||Schools to resume operation in coming weeks||All domestic flights resumed||10% off vacation to Democratic East Asia today, book yours today!||

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:55 am


Except that my example is drawing attention to how silly your principle is. I'm not literally comparing economic migrants to Hitler. That'd be silly. I'm telling you that not even you think all people are equally worthwhile.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

- Song of the Fallen Star

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Eclius
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Postby Eclius » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:59 am

Ifreann wrote:
Eclius wrote:They're helping poor countries out of "sincerity" they're helping them to extend their political influence.

If it's in a country's political interests to help other countries then you're going to need a lot more than "It's simple logic" to argue that they should act contrary to their interests.
And as aforementioned, not every nation can afford to do that, you can't expect a nation like Italy to give away foreign aid money in billions and billions.

But Italy does give aid to foreign countries, and accept refugees, and help ships in distress, even if they're not Italian. You know, excepting this incident. If your logic is so simple, how did these conventions even come about?
In terms of Convention for the Safety Of Life At Sea, it's a treaty that sets minimum safety standard for commercial ships, it did not say you have to protect economic migrants.

The Aquarius is a ship.

At sea.

And the people aboard her are alive.

Ok, for the last time, you did not understand my arguments at all. I'm saying, Italy made the right choice because it's in economic crisis and they ALREADY spent soo much on migrants and foreign aids up at this point!

If it's in a country's political interests to help other countries then you're going to need a lot more than "It's simple logic" to argue that they should act contrary to their interests.

Because, countries with some spare money and a growing economy, can give away foreign aid in tons if it fits their international political interest and it's not against their domestic interest because their economy is growing, they have surplus and they are not having an increase in poverty rate. For the one last time, please put effort in trying to understand people's arguments
We do NOT use NS stats since it's not the most accurate reflection
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||Local man sent to hospital after eating a pack of 14 years old Kraft mac'n cheese||Schools to resume operation in coming weeks||All domestic flights resumed||10% off vacation to Democratic East Asia today, book yours today!||

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Eclius
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Postby Eclius » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:59 am

Fahran wrote:

Except that my example is drawing attention to how silly your principle is. I'm not literally comparing economic migrants to Hitler. That'd be silly. I'm telling you that not even you think all people are equally worthwhile.

No offense, but even I cannot seem to understand your argument
We do NOT use NS stats since it's not the most accurate reflection
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||Local man sent to hospital after eating a pack of 14 years old Kraft mac'n cheese||Schools to resume operation in coming weeks||All domestic flights resumed||10% off vacation to Democratic East Asia today, book yours today!||

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:00 am

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Like they have it any better.

Most of them probably do. Nigeria for instance is currently experiencing a brain drain because the West keeps taking all their well-educated citizens. Not everyone in Africa is starving or going without shoes. That's a silly stereotype.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

- Song of the Fallen Star

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:01 am

Eclius wrote:No offense, but even I cannot seem to understand your argument

"All people are equal."

"Are you and Hitler equal? Should governments treat you both the same?"

"No."

"Then should they treat everyone else the same? All people have different ideologies, behaviors, and characteristics. This is an extreme version of that, but it illustrates the point."
Last edited by Fahran on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

- Song of the Fallen Star

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Eclius
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Postby Eclius » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:02 am

Fahran wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:Like they have it any better.

Most of them probably do. Nigeria for instance is currently experiencing a brain drain because the West keeps taking all their well-educated citizens. Not everyone in Africa is starving or going without shoes. That's a silly stereotype.

No offense, but if this was a debate, Herp's gonna win almost effortlessly with this argument being presented to the judges and audiences. I'll leave for you to figure out why
We do NOT use NS stats since it's not the most accurate reflection
Eclisian Herald News Network
||Local man sent to hospital after eating a pack of 14 years old Kraft mac'n cheese||Schools to resume operation in coming weeks||All domestic flights resumed||10% off vacation to Democratic East Asia today, book yours today!||

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:03 am

Eclius wrote:No offense, but if this was a debate, Herp's gonna win almost effortlessly with this argument being presented to the judges and audiences. I'll leave for you to figure out why

Explain. Please tell me why economic migrants should instantly be given consideration just because they're less wealthy?
Last edited by Fahran on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

- Song of the Fallen Star

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:04 am

Eclius wrote:
Ifreann wrote:That wouldn't be more efficient. That would be a huge waste. Governments are big organisations and with loads of money and workers. You may as well suggest that it's more efficient to type with one finger at a time.

Up at this point, I don't even want to argue anymore, this is dragging on forever, not going anywhere and is pointless. For the one final time, charity begins at home, deal with domestic issues first.

Refugees in Italy are a domestic Italian issue.


Great Minarchistan wrote:
Ifreann wrote:How big do you think this boat is?

How many boats do you think that Europe has taken over the last years?

A lot.

Ifreann wrote:Because otherwise they'll die.

Duh.

It's their fault, nobody asked them to cross a dangerous sea and, the best thing of all, believe that they would be well received in a nation that is done with receiving so many refugees that generate a permanent drain on the society.

If Italy could help them and didn't and they died then their deaths would quite obviously be Italy's fault.


Fahran wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Who else should take them?

If they're economic migrants, as many of them are, and not at risk of starvation, nobody. They should stay in their own countries. If they're refugees, countries with a similar culture that are capable of supporting them without difficulty. It makes more sense for someone from the Sahel region to go to Nigeria than for them to go to Tunisia or Algeria than to go to Italy...

Fascinating thing to hear from a European person(probably) living in North America, who adheres to a Middle Eastern religion. Do you think your ancestors did something wrong by not staying in Europe, or the Levant, or wherever they came from? Or maybe it's only refugees that must stay within their "cultural region" but the rest of us a free to migrate hither and yon.

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