Italy turns away ship of 600 illegal migrants

[Gravlen]

But you don't know that until they are processed. It seems like a good idea for them to be processed. Why do you have an issue with that?

The issue I have is that it's unfair to ppl who also applied for the status, but through legal and proper ways.

The "legal and proper way" is to apply for refugee status at the border.

[Gravlen]

As I said before, I'm sure the strongly worded letter they get in return will be very frightening. The US signed various treaties on the usage of chemical weapons. We still dropped white phosphorous on Iraqi insurgents.

Sadly this is true, if Italy or any other nation really did tell the Refugee convention to fuck off there really isn't much the world can do about it, Sanctions will be hard to impose and will likely just make the nation double down, hell threats have just made Poland and Hungry double down, why would Italy be any different?

Why doesn't Italy just withdraw from the Refugee convention? They're allowed to do that, there's mechanisms in place for doing that. Not doing it and then refusing to abide by it just gives Italy legal troubles, domestically as well as internationally.

And your proof that all 600 of those people on the boat would do that is where?

I thought everyone was innocent until proven guilty, so why do you assume that?

Well they were quite willing to pay a human trafficker criminal to help them violate international immigration law, so they're already proved willing to break the law once.

What "International immigration law" are you talkling about?

[Isilanka]

I'm confused too about the "international immigration law" stuff. There aren't international immigration laws. There are international status defined by the UN, like refugee, but there aren't international immigration laws. There are european (as in, inside the EU) laws, though.

[The Lone Alliance]

Why doesn't Italy just withdraw from the Refugee convention? They're allowed to do that, there's mechanisms in place for doing that. Not doing it and then refusing to abide by it just gives Italy legal troubles, domestically as well as internationally.

Good question, I think besides the bad PR when all the media and "Global society" turns on them there's also the "What if". Because you never know what might happen, if a giant asteroid lands on Italy causing the nation to literally be blasted to bits that means what is left of their people would instantly become refugees... and if Italy left the convention that might give nations just cause to return the favor on them and shut them out of their nation.

What "International immigration law" are you talkling about?

International in the sense that many nations have laws against illegal immigration and it's pretty much internationally accepted that there's a right way and a wrong way to try to immigrate. After all the EU is more than one nation.

This ploy of deliberately sinking your ships so you can get rescued is the wrong way and shouldn't be encouraged, it's dangerously reckless at best and callous at worse. But as long as NGOs are hovering around the med announcing that they're rescuing people human traffickers will continue to do so.

Really though the easiest solution would be to shut the NGOs down, but that has some dangerous side effects because over all these organizations are well meaning, plus without them there if the Traffickers might assume they're bluffing and keep on going, or worse deliberately send their ships out there and then deliberately drown all their cargo just to horrify people all over again.

Cause it's not like these traffickers really value human lives, otherwise they wouldn't do such a risky strategy.

[Comhghall]

How is this a bad thing?

[West Leas Oros]

How is this a bad thing?

I mean, what would you do if a bunch of people are just coming into your nation without proper documentation and are putting a strain on the government workload and using resources? A bit stressful, to say the least.

[Comhghall]

How is this a bad thing?

I mean, a bunch of people are just coming into your nation without proper documentation and are putting a strain on the government workload and using resources. A bit stressful, to say the least.

I mean turning away the illegal immigrants.

[West Leas Oros]

I mean, a bunch of people are just coming into your nation without proper documentation and are putting a strain on the government workload and using resources. A bit stressful, to say the least.

I mean turning away the illegal immigrants.

Pretty sure OP was in support of this decision.

[Comhghall]

I mean turning away the illegal immigrants.

Pretty sure OP was in support of this decision.

I'm aware.

[Erdogan in cool sunglasses]

As I said before, I'm sure the strongly worded letter they get in return will be very frightening. The US signed various treaties on the usage of chemical weapons. We still dropped white phosphorous on Iraqi insurgents.

Sadly this is true, if Italy or any other nation really did tell the Refugee convention to fuck off there really isn't much the world can do about it, Sanctions will be hard to impose and will likely just make the nation double down, hell threats have just made Poland and Hungry double down, why would Italy be any different?

Hell I believe Turkey was caught violating the Refugee convention, but no one's going to do anything to Turkey.

All of the mentioned countries are far more complicated causes than simply "didn't take refugees and violated the conventions".

Poland - we took at least one million of refugees from Ukraine. They are also in poor situation because our neighbor is literally collapsing under Russian pressure. We are more willing to take Ukrainians than Syrians or Africans because of cultural reasons (some even say they are our people). They are easy to assimilate, it takes Ukrainian only about two weeks to learn a language at satisfactory level. And there is a pure economical reason. We can't give enough money to keep refugees at good conditions so if they want something more than a warm dinner they must go to work or emigrate. Ukrainians rather prefer to stay but Chechens whom we took some time ago chose emigration to Germany as well as 120 Syrian Christians in 2015.

Hungary. They literally take refugees. But the Islamic refugee must be insane to apply to be a refugee in Hungary, so they rather prefer to the West and Hungarian government has nothing against it. There was even an action where the government paid for railway tickets for refugees going to the West (Austria and Germany mostly). Maybe this is a better solution for Italy?

Turkey Is a different case. We must remember that they took 3 millions of Syrians and probably they will have to take another 2.5 million. It's far more than richer Germany says is able to take and the government can't guarantee them good conditions without the state economy collapse, even with some money sent from Europe. Basically that's why the world should shut up about their violating of refugee convention. No one and nothing can require from any country government to take care more about the refugees than own citizens.

[Ifreann]

But you don't know that until they are processed. It seems like a good idea for them to be processed. Why do you have an issue with that?

Waste of time and money as well as an encouragement of bad behaviour by making them think that they have even a snowball in hell chance of staying after breaking the law to enter.
Send them back to the shore of Lybia where they came from.
We have no vocation to welcome all the misery of the world

Obviously all the treaties about refugees and saving lives at sea don't count because...em...

---

I hardly think that the cost of these 629 people would have bankrupted Italy and left the Italian people starving in the streets.

Of course, a net loss of 1.8 million yearly that will be socialized by the taxpayers doesn't ruin a trillion dollar nation. But let's say... 200, 400, 800 thousand? One million? Maybe two? This is when fun begins.

How big do you think this boat is?

---

Why should one force another sentient being to go to a dangerous place where they will likely die?

Why should people be forced to pay for some guys that crossed their border?

Because otherwise they'll die.

Duh.

[The East Marches II]

Sadly this is true, if Italy or any other nation really did tell the Refugee convention to fuck off there really isn't much the world can do about it, Sanctions will be hard to impose and will likely just make the nation double down, hell threats have just made Poland and Hungry double down, why would Italy be any different?

Why doesn't Italy just withdraw from the Refugee convention? They're allowed to do that, there's mechanisms in place for doing that. Not doing it and then refusing to abide by it just gives Italy legal troubles, domestically as well as internationally.

Why bother withdrawing? The mechanisms are so pathetic that they failed miserably last round. No need to stir up trouble, they can just rely on the lack of spine.

[The Grims]

How big do you think this boat is?
.

How many of these boats do you think attempt the crossing?
Vegeta might have the answer.

And again: take into account the significant amount of money needed for the mental counseling these poor traumatised people require. Europeans are not like Turkey where they are dumped into slums without care and told to sell their bodies for cash.

[Ifreann]

How big do you think this boat is?
.

How many of these boats do you think attempt the crossing?
Vegeta might have the answer.

The Aquarius didn't cross from Africa to Italy. It left Sicily, rescued people at sea, and was headed back to Sicily.

And again: take into account the significant amount of money needed for the mental counseling these poor traumatised people require. Europeans are not like Turkey where they are dumped into slums without care and told to sell their bodies for cash.

Luckily for Italy they're in the EU, who can help them if the burden becomes too great.

[New yugoslavaia]

So, since all these people who are against immigration are right wing populist, are they nationalist? If so, do they deny global warming? If so...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Deg7VrpHbM

[Gravlen]

Sadly this is true, if Italy or any other nation really did tell the Refugee convention to fuck off there really isn't much the world can do about it, Sanctions will be hard to impose and will likely just make the nation double down, hell threats have just made Poland and Hungry double down, why would Italy be any different?

Hell I believe Turkey was caught violating the Refugee convention, but no one's going to do anything to Turkey.

All of the mentioned countries are far more complicated causes than simply "didn't take refugees and violated the conventions".

Poland - we took at least one million of refugees from Ukraine. They are also in poor situation because our neighbor is literally collapsing under Russian pressure. We are more willing to take Ukrainians than Syrians or Africans because of cultural reasons (some even say they are our people). They are easy to assimilate, it takes Ukrainian only about two weeks to learn a language at satisfactory level. And there is a pure economical reason. We can't give enough money to keep refugees at good conditions so if they want something more than a warm dinner they must go to work or emigrate. Ukrainians rather prefer to stay but Chechens whom we took some time ago chose emigration to Germany as well as 120 Syrian Christians in 2015.

And by "took at least one million refugees from Ukraine", you mean... um... 355. Since 2014. And of these, only 70 got refugee status, according to EuroStat.

(Maybe I should note that Ukranians lodged a total of 6 540 asylum applications in Poland in the period from 2014 to 2017.)

[Eclius]

Well, when it comes down to "basic human decency", also keep in mind that Italy's own domestic poverty rate is increasing throughout the years. And frankly, as I said to Herp, the resources under a nation's possession is limited, frankly, Italian government did the right thing, and should look into improving the living condition for domestic ppl instead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mic-slumps

I hardly think that the cost of these 629 people would have bankrupted Italy and left the Italian people starving in the streets.

Of course, if it did, I'd be the one saying that Europe should help their Italian neighbours fleeing their broken country, and you guys would be demanding they be left to fix their own country or die trying.

Weird how your concern for foreigners is so selective.

Well, I don't think you understood fully what I was trying the say. Frankly, the issue is not with 629 ppl, it's with the fact that Italy cannot accept more migrants on the economic basis, it's not the issue with 629 ppl, it's the issue with accepting migrants as a whole.

Weird how your concern for foreigners is so selective

No, it's not. Frankly if Italy goes bankrupt over its own issues, then I do not believe it should be mandatory for other nations to bring them back on track. As I mentioned, resources are limited, and a nation should use it on their own citizens than other nations

[Eclius]

How big do you think this boat is?
.

How many of these boats do you think attempt the crossing?
Vegeta might have the answer.

And again: take into account the significant amount of money needed for the mental counseling these poor traumatised people require. Europeans are not like Turkey where they are dumped into slums without care and told to sell their bodies for cash.

Which is why, the migration issue must be deterred and stopped. Frankly handling migrants can be very costly

[Ifreann]

I hardly think that the cost of these 629 people would have bankrupted Italy and left the Italian people starving in the streets.

Of course, if it did, I'd be the one saying that Europe should help their Italian neighbours fleeing their broken country, and you guys would be demanding they be left to fix their own country or die trying.

Weird how your concern for foreigners is so selective.

Well, I don't think you understood fully what I was trying the say. Frankly, the issue is not with 629 ppl, it's with the fact that Italy cannot accept more migrants on the economic basis, it's not the issue with 629 ppl, it's the issue with accepting migrants as a whole.

Weird how your concern for foreigners is so selective

No, it's not. Frankly if Italy goes bankrupt over its own issues, then I do not believe it should be mandatory for other nations to bring them back on track.

I thought not. But this raises the question of why you care if they accept refugees or not.

As I mentioned, resources are limited, and a nation should use it on their own citizens than other nations

Why?

[Eclius]

Why?

Well, I think the reason should be rather self-explanatory

I thought not. But this raises the question of why you care if they accept refugees or not.

Isn't that the whole point of the discussion thread? That's like going to the general car discussion thread, and be like "why do you guys care about cars anyway?"

[Ifreann]

Why?

Well, I think the reason should be rather self-explanatory

Nonetheless, I'm interested to hear your reasoning.

I thought not. But this raises the question of why you care if they accept refugees or not.

Isn't that the whole point of the discussion thread? That's like going to the general car discussion thread, and be like "why do you guys care about cars anyway?"

But you're arguing that foreigners don't matter and shouldn't be helped. And Italians are foreigners to you. Shouldn't you care as little for what happens to Italy as what happens to the people on the Aquarius?

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

And your proof that all 600 of those people on the boat would do that is where?

I thought everyone was innocent until proven guilty, so why do you assume that?

Well they were quite willing to pay a human trafficker criminal to help them violate international immigration law, so they're already proved willing to break the law once.

It's one thing to hope that bad things won't happen and they magically will all be accepted and thankful, but the world doesn't run on magical thinking and hopes and dreams.

As I said before, crossing an imaginary line created for arbitrary jurisdiction reasons with out a special permission slip is a crime that hurts no one.

The reasons why that line is there are purely human. Crossing that line doesn't hurt anyone.

Never said that it does run on hopes and dreams, but I did say that they are innocent until proven guilty. A right western society was built on.

So unless you have proof beyond assuming that they are going to to evil bad things when they get to Italy, then they are doing no harm.

Show me proof that these specific 600 people are here on nefarious reasons or intentions.

Basic human decency is a reason, even if you personally place no value on the concept.

This is an infantile view of how the world works and I'm rapidly losing interest in dealing with it. Italy is not going to just ignore international law. They won't. No matter how badly you want them to, they won't, because paying for all the refugees ever would be less hassle than being a European North Korea, or worse, a second Nazi Germany.

---

Gosh, with all the possible places and circumstances they could have come from, there might be no way to tell who among them qualifies as a refugee and who doesn't.

Maybe...

Maybe they'll have to be allowed to come ashore and processed there...

Well, when it comes down to "basic human decency", also keep in mind that Italy's own domestic poverty rate is increasing throughout the years. And frankly, as I said to Herp, the resources under a nation's possession is limited, frankly, Italian government did the right thing, and should look into improving the living condition for domestic ppl instead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mic-slumps

That's no excuse for not helping people.

Resources are always limited. Doesn't mean we shouldn't help others.

[Petrolheadia]

That's no excuse for not helping people.

That's why we wanna help the people of the nation.

Also, immigration isn't just crossing an imaginary line; or it is, but brings real problems - cultural alienation, wage descent, ghettoization, militancy....

[Trumptonium1]

Italy has summoned France's ambassador over the French President's comments about Italian behaviour and policies.

This is the second time that the Italian state demanded direct answers from France's envoy since the election, marking an obvious degrading of relations between Italy and France. The previous time the Italians demanded ambassadorial answers was in December, and the previous time before that only in 2008, and before this in 1996.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/06/13 ... -spat.html

Earlier this year France has been involved in a spat with Austria and a very public conflict with Poland.

Looks like Macron is trying to channel some sort of liberal Trump foreign policy.

[Eclius]

Well, I think the reason should be rather self-explanatory

Nonetheless, I'm interested to hear your reasoning.

Isn't that the whole point of the discussion thread? That's like going to the general car discussion thread, and be like "why do you guys care about cars anyway?"

But you're arguing that foreigners don't matter and shouldn't be helped. And Italians are foreigners to you. Shouldn't you care as little for what happens to Italy as what happens to the people on the Aquarius?

I'm saying, in the PERSPECTIVE OF ITALIANS they should not accept migrants due to economic reasons. But outside that, why would I personally care about whatever happens to Italy?

Nonetheless, I'm interested to hear your reasoning.

Because I happens to come across this thread while I was wondering aimlessly in General channel? You're going off topic here, and I don't appreciate the counter-productivity from you constantly asking me why I am here.