Italy turns away ship of 600 illegal migrants

[Aellex]

But you don't know that until they are processed. It seems like a good idea for them to be processed. Why do you have an issue with that?

Waste of time and money as well as an encouragement of bad behaviour by making them think that they have even a snowball in hell chance of staying after breaking the law to enter.
Send them back to the shore of Lybia where they came from.
We have no vocation to welcome all the misery of the world

[The Grims]

Well, when it comes down to "basic human decency", also keep in mind that Italy's own domestic poverty rate is increasing throughout the years. And frankly, as I said to Herp, the resources under a nation's possession is limited, frankly, Italian government did the right thing, and should look into improving the living condition for domestic ppl instead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mic-slumps

I hardly think that the cost of these 629 people would have bankrupted Italy and left the Italian people starving in the streets.

Probably not if they were the only ones.
But what if Italy already has several million, of which the overwhelming majority contributes nothing whatsoever to the nation? Then the reluctance to receive even more, no matter how few, becomes understandable.

[Great Minarchistan]

I hardly think that the cost of these 629 people would have bankrupted Italy and left the Italian people starving in the streets.

Of course, a net loss of 1.8 million yearly that will be socialized by the taxpayers doesn't ruin a trillion dollar nation. But let's say... 200, 400, 800 thousand? One million? Maybe two? This is when fun begins.

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

I hardly think that the cost of these 629 people would have bankrupted Italy and left the Italian people starving in the streets.

Of course, a net loss of 1.8 million yearly that will be socialized by the taxpayers doesn't ruin a trillion dollar nation. But let's say... 200, 400, 800 thousand? One million? Maybe two? This is when fun begins.

Immigration should not be towards only one country, if the immigrants do not all agree just to go there. But, assuming that they did all want to go there, and one million immigrants went to Italy over the course of two years, two to five billion euro from the military budget could pay for that many people (assuming that they would all be permanently incapable of working, which is not true), while still having the budget account for around one percent of the world's military expenditures.

[The Lone Alliance]

1951 Refugee Convention disagrees. Italy signed and ratified it.

As I said before, I'm sure the strongly worded letter they get in return will be very frightening. The US signed various treaties on the usage of chemical weapons. We still dropped white phosphorous on Iraqi insurgents.

Sadly this is true, if Italy or any other nation really did tell the Refugee convention to fuck off there really isn't much the world can do about it, Sanctions will be hard to impose and will likely just make the nation double down, hell threats have just made Poland and Hungry double down, why would Italy be any different?

Hell I believe Turkey was caught violating the Refugee convention, but no one's going to do anything to Turkey.

Immigration should not be towards only one country, if the immigrants do not all agree just to go there. But, assuming that they did all want to go there, and one million immigrants went to Italy over the course of two years, two to five billion euro from the military budget could pay for that many people (assuming that they would all be permanently incapable of working, which is not true), while still having the budget account for around one percent of the world's military expenditures.

That would still cripple Italy's military, you know the people partly fishing these people out of the water?

You're saying Italy should cripple their military in order to pay for people to get free money just for showing up in their country?
Wouldn't that just encourage another Million to sail on over ?

Where will Italy get the money to pay the next million people sailing over (Because now they have no Navy to control their own coastline).
And how do you think the locals will feel about that?

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

As I said before, I'm sure the strongly worded letter they get in return will be very frightening. The US signed various treaties on the usage of chemical weapons. We still dropped white phosphorous on Iraqi insurgents.

Sadly this is true, if Italy or any other nation really did tell the Refugee convention to fuck off there really isn't much the world can do about it, Sanctions will be hard to impose and will likely just make the nation double down, hell threats have just made Poland and Hungry double down, why would Italy be any different?

Hell I believe Turkey was caught violating the Refugee convention, but no one's going to do anything to Turkey.

Immigration should not be towards only one country, if the immigrants do not all agree just to go there. But, assuming that they did all want to go there, and one million immigrants went to Italy over the course of two years, two to five billion euro from the military budget could pay for that many people (assuming that they would all be permanently incapable of working, which is not true), while still having the budget account for around one percent of the world's military expenditures.

So Italy should cripple their military in order to pay for people to get free money just for showing up in their country?
Wouldn't that just encourage another Million to sail on over ?

How do you think the locals will feel about that?

They just had a four percent drop in spending last year, and I do not recall any major riots being on the news due to that. Foreign aid and welfare and helping refugees (especially) help people and save lives. The military, however, is not doing much of anything at the moment, and I was not proposing cutting the budget into half, but around 90 %. If people are more concerned about the military than the welfare of fellow humans, then let them volunteer for no pay to make up for the gaps they believe to exist.

[The Lone Alliance]

They just had a four percent drop in spending last year, and I do not recall any major riots being on the news due to that. Foreign aid and welfare and helping refugees (especially) help people and save lives. The military, however, is not doing much of anything at the moment, and I was not proposing cutting the budget into half, but around 90 %. If people are more concerned about the military than the welfare of fellow humans, then let them volunteer for no pay to make up for the gaps they believe to exist.

No they're not going to volunteer, they're just going to vote to end your policy and most likely out right hate these people. Hell policies like yours could lead to violence and with the military crippled Italy won't be able to do anything to stop the resulting social unrest.

Especially since your policy would likely result in another Million people coming over. Eventually Italy will run out of other's peoples money to give to them. Then what will happen?

[Great Minarchistan]

Immigration should not be towards only one country

Refugees should go back to their land.

But, assuming that they did all want to go there, and one million immigrants went to Italy over the course of two years, two to five billion euro from the military budget could pay for that many people

Using my $2900 per refugee figure, 2.9 billion a year. And such a cut is literally a tenth of the Italian defense spending, which is surely operating at low enough levels for domestic defense only. Given that we are talking about privileging 1/60th of the population then nah lmao

(assuming that they would all be permanently incapable of working, which is not true)

Assuming so would actually raise the figure to $5.9 billion, lol

while still having the budget account for around one percent of the world's military expenditures.

Irrelevant statistic, it's important to factor defense spending as a % of the GDP or at least in per capita terms, where Italy ranks quite well behind.

[Kramanica]

Good. Italy's grown tired of endless waves of migrants, and rightly so.

[Great Minarchistan]

They just had a four percent drop in spending last year, and I do not recall any major riots being on the news due to that.

You are suggesting a 10-20% cut, it's just a *bit* larger

Foreign aid and welfare and helping refugees (especially) help people and save lives.

Wrong, 75% of the german refugees have been unemployed for more than 6 months.

The military, however, is not doing much of anything at the moment, and I was not proposing cutting the budget into half, but around 90 %.

Will gladly join your utopia, until Italy gets invaded by some African dictatorship because you just cut their already small defense budget by ninety percent.

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

They just had a four percent drop in spending last year, and I do not recall any major riots being on the news due to that.

You are suggesting a 10-20% cut, it's just a *bit* larger

Foreign aid and welfare and helping refugees (especially) help people and save lives.

Wrong, 75% of the german refugees have been unemployed for more than 6 months.

The military, however, is not doing much of anything at the moment, and I was not proposing cutting the budget into half, but around 90 %.

Will gladly join your utopia, until Italy gets invaded by some African dictatorship because you just cut their already small defense budget by ninety percent.

I did not say cut by 90 %, but to 90 %. If anything as drastic as you say were to occur, they could raise the budget for it.

[Great Minarchistan]

I did not say cut by 90 %, but to 90 %. If anything as drastic as you say were to occur, they could raise the budget for it.

So fuck the taxpayers, once again. Why do so many people believe that government has infinite money when in fact it lives off our own wealth?

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

I did not say cut by 90 %, but to 90 %. If anything as drastic as you say were to occur, they could raise the budget for it.

So fuck the taxpayers, once again. Why do so many people believe that government has infinite money when in fact it lives off our own wealth?

If everyone is so concerned about increasing military spending yet again, as you say, then they should not care what the cost is to give it more money to burn/

[The Lone Alliance]

I did not say cut by 90 %, but to 90 %. If anything as drastic as you say were to occur, they could raise the budget for it.

So fuck the taxpayers, once again. Why do so many people believe that government has infinite money when in fact it lives off our own wealth?

Yes the Taxpayers will gladly support this policy.

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

So fuck the taxpayers, once again. Why do so many people believe that government has infinite money when in fact it lives off our own wealth?

Yes the Taxpayers will gladly support this policy.

Which policy? The policy of cutting military budget down to 90 % of the original (so less taxes)? And only if they demand more military spending, only then raising taxes to pay for them?

[The Lone Alliance]

Which policy? The policy of cutting military budget down to 90 % of the original (so less taxes)?

Except you're not proposing less taxes, you're proposing giving tax money to people for no reason other than the fact that they crossed a sea.

Really how the hell do you get less taxes out of this?

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

Which policy? The policy of cutting military budget down to 90 % of the original (so less taxes)?

Except you're not proposing less taxes, you're proposing giving tax money to people for no reason other than the fact that they crossed a sea.

I am proposing cutting taxes by roughly 2 %, and using 8 % of the military spending for humanitarian purposes to provide for those who miraculously survived a hazardous journey.

[Great Minarchistan]

Except you're not proposing less taxes, you're proposing giving tax money to people for no reason other than the fact that they crossed a sea.

I am proposing cutting taxes by roughly 2 %, and using 8 % of the military spending for humanitarian purposes to provide for those who miraculously survived a hazardous journey.

They did it on their own, it's not anything beyond their own merit for having survived and we shouldn't pay them for it.

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

I am proposing cutting taxes by roughly 2 %, and using 8 % of the military spending for humanitarian purposes to provide for those who miraculously survived a hazardous journey.

They did it on their own, it's not anything beyond their own merit for having survived and we shouldn't pay them for it.

Why should one force another sentient being to go to a dangerous place where they will likely die?

[West Leas Oros]

Classic Italy, unable to defend themselves from people pouring into their borders. Nice to see things haven’t changed since WWII. :^)

[The Lone Alliance]

Except you're not proposing less taxes, you're proposing giving tax money to people for no reason other than the fact that they crossed a sea.

I am proposing cutting taxes by roughly 2 %, and using 8 % of the military spending for humanitarian purposes to provide for those who miraculously survived a hazardous journey.

It's only a Hazardous journey because it's deliberately designed to be hazardous. They got on board those ships knowing that the plan is to deliberately sink them halfway across in order to get rescued and pitied by people like you.

Crossing the ocean in the age of sail was pretty hazardous too. Malaria, bad winds, starvation, dehydration... nasty shit.

At least the med is relatively small.

[Great Minarchistan]

They did it on their own, it's not anything beyond their own merit for having survived and we shouldn't pay them for it.

Why should one force another sentient being to go to a dangerous place where they will likely die?

Why should people be forced to pay for some guys that crossed their border? Do you think it's rightful for me to take away $100 from your paycheck to give it to someone that didn't even contribute to your society previously?

[The Grims]

Except you're not proposing less taxes, you're proposing giving tax money to people for no reason other than the fact that they crossed a sea.

I am proposing cutting taxes by roughly 2 %, and using 8 % of the military spending for humanitarian purposes to provide for those who miraculously survived a hazardous journey.

You do realise that you will need more money ? Traumatised people require expensive medical aid and cannot be just dumped into the population.

[The Grims]

Why should one force another sentient being to go to a dangerous place where they will likely die?

Why should people be forced to pay for some guys that crossed their border? Do you think it's rightful for me to take away $100 from your paycheck to give it to someone that didn't even contribute to your society previously?

And has an 80 percent chance of not going to contribute in the next few decades. A not unimportant detail.

[Gravlen]

Libya is a place we would offer asylum from.

True, but since the fall of Gaddafi, UN sent numerous waves of peacekeepers from multiple nations to peacekeep in the nation, and the nation frankly is less and less chaotic over the years. Also, just because they set off from Libya, doesn't necessarily mean they are from Libya.

The UN has never had a peacekeeping mission in Libya.