Italy turns away ship of 600 illegal migrants

[Fartsniffage]

*Europe* "We have a problem."

*America bursts through the wall* "SHOOT IT! SHOOT IT! SHOOT IT!"

We don't have guillotines here.

I'm sure Americans are smart enough to build them. I believe in you Parkus.

[The Lone Alliance]

Except they have been causing problems in Italy once they're in there because crossing that imaginary line doesn't magically make everything better.

They get to Italy, realize that the EU isn't going to give them free things just for showing up, and now can't even go back even if they wanted too.

And what do you think happens to a bunch of people who are broke and homeless?
They turn to crime and vagrancy.

This pisses off the locals making them hate them, which leads to a rise in the far right and hate crimes.
This leads to the migrants self radicalizing in response.

And your proof that all 600 of those people on the boat would do that is where?

I thought everyone was innocent until proven guilty, so why do you assume that?

Well they were quite willing to pay a human trafficker criminal to help them violate international immigration law, so they're already proved willing to break the law once.

It's one thing to hope that bad things won't happen and they magically will all be accepted and thankful, but the world doesn't run on magical thinking and hopes and dreams.

[Great Minarchistan]

How costly is it to take in these immigrants?

Regardless I don't blame Italy. It's not their problem.

Nothing else to back it up, so you may very well call this BS but I'll try to make numbers as realistic as possible. Basically, refugees need housing, food, water and probably healthcare (gotta factor that in, since we are talking about E-"we live in a society"-U). So errr...
Housing: $625 tent lasting 6 months, $1250 for two tens to last a whole year (family of four).
Food: Not sure if I've mentioned it here or not, but the cheapest food plan I could find costs $5/person/day. So, $7300 a year for a family of four.
Water: UN's recommended standard is around 200l/d/p IIRC, so 292m³/yr. for a family of four. Water prices in the EU are apparently averaging $3.50/m³, so $1022 a year.
Healthcare: Last time I checked, NHS costs roughly $3500 per capita (using it as a baseline because most/all of EU has some sort of public healthcare and NHS is called out as very efficient, whatever), so $14000/yr. for a family of four.
Aggregating everything, a family of four is going to cost mere $23570 to the taxpayers every year. One could say that the refugees can compensate that by working and contributing to the country, but given the insanely high unemployment rate of refugees and low pay rates due to their lack of skills, let's assume that out of four families only one has both adults working full time at a standard minimum of $12000/yr. This leaves us with $24000 in revenue... against $94280 of spending. Even if we assume the whole thing about contributing to economic profits (which would imply a twice larger figure since wage compensation is ~50% of the aggregate value generated), this still leaves us with a net loss of $46280 for 4 families, $11570 for each family and technically $2900 a year for every refugee in Europe.

But muh charity! Hah.

[Ifreann]

You can't send people back to countries where they'll face oppression. And since they are, by definition, in your country for that to be a possibility, it is your problem.

Sure we can...

It's physically possible, but that's irrelevant, because sensible people don't go around violating international norms for the lulz, and deranged morons only rarely come to be in charge of countries. Italy could just expel all refugees to wherever they came from. Or expel them all to Syria, regardless of where they came from. Or throw them all in a big pit and encase them in concrete. But they won't. Italy isn't going to set about killing people, directly or indirectly, because "Not our problem".

---

Weird that you keep insisting on compassion for workers and veterans then.

Workers help our nation grow and veterans bled for their nation. They are much different than refugees who have done shit for our nations.

The fact that you can’t figure that out is depressing

Compassion doesn't fix budget issues or financial crises.

---

It is the concern of any nearby vessels. Law of the sea.

Law of the Sea can fuck off.

No, that's stupid.

[Fartsniffage]

No, that's stupid.

Bullshit.

Free swimming lessons for all!

[The Republic of Fore]

Sure we can...

It's physically possible, but that's irrelevant, because sensible people don't go around violating international norms for the lulz, and deranged morons only rarely come to be in charge of countries. Italy could just expel all refugees to wherever they came from. Or expel them all to Syria, regardless of where they came from. Or throw them all in a big pit and encase them in concrete. But they won't. Italy isn't going to set about killing people, directly or indirectly, because "Not our problem".

---

Workers help our nation grow and veterans bled for their nation. They are much different than refugees who have done shit for our nations.

The fact that you can’t figure that out is depressing

Compassion doesn't fix budget issues or financial crises.

---

Law of the Sea can fuck off.

No, that's stupid.

It's not for the lulz. It's because Italy has no reason to take them. "Boo hoo their country sucks". So does most of planet earth. International courts can cry all they want. Send them home.

[Fartsniffage]

It's physically possible, but that's irrelevant, because sensible people don't go around violating international norms for the lulz, and deranged morons only rarely come to be in charge of countries. Italy could just expel all refugees to wherever they came from. Or expel them all to Syria, regardless of where they came from. Or throw them all in a big pit and encase them in concrete. But they won't. Italy isn't going to set about killing people, directly or indirectly, because "Not our problem".

---

Compassion doesn't fix budget issues or financial crises.

---

No, that's stupid.

It's not for the lulz. It's because Italy has no reason to take them. "Boo hoo their country sucks". So does most of planet earth. International courts can cry all they want. Send them home.

1951 Refugee Convention disagrees. Italy signed and ratified it.

[Eclius]

It's not for the lulz. It's because Italy has no reason to take them. "Boo hoo their country sucks". So does most of planet earth. International courts can cry all they want. Send them home.

1951 Refugee Convention disagrees. Italy signed and ratified it.

True, but the convention defined refugee as such, and I quote "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it." However, a lot of these people were not persecuted in country of origin, thus, they are merely economic migrants and not refugees as defined by 1951 convention

[Fartsniffage]

1951 Refugee Convention disagrees. Italy signed and ratified it.

True, but the convention defined refugee as such, and I quote "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it." However, a lot of these people were not persecuted in country of origin, thus, they are merely economic migrants and not refugees as defined by 1951 convention

How do you know until they're processed? What are the numbers?

[Eclius]

True, but the convention defined refugee as such, and I quote "A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it." However, a lot of these people were not persecuted in country of origin, thus, they are merely economic migrants and not refugees as defined by 1951 convention

How do you know until they're processed? What are the numbers?

In an article I found, and I quote " But unlike Greece’s migrants, who are by and large fleeing war in Syria and thus qualify more easily for refugee status, Italy’s migrants mostly come from Africa...... they are not eligible for the same protections". This indicates that the migrants are not from a war-torn country, and thus, not eligible for the protection

http://time.com/5309812/mv-aquarius-mig ... ean-union/

[Fartsniffage]

How do you know until they're processed? What are the numbers?

In an article I found, and I quote " But unlike Greece’s migrants, who are by and large fleeing war in Syria and thus qualify more easily for refugee status, Italy’s migrants mostly come from Africa...... they are not eligible for the same protections". This indicates that the migrants are not from a war-torn country, and thus, not eligible for the protection

http://time.com/5309812/mv-aquarius-mig ... ean-union/

came to the aid of several dinghy-loads of imperiled migrants who had set off from the Libyan coast for Europe,

Libya is a place we would offer asylum from.

[Eclius]

In an article I found, and I quote " But unlike Greece’s migrants, who are by and large fleeing war in Syria and thus qualify more easily for refugee status, Italy’s migrants mostly come from Africa...... they are not eligible for the same protections". This indicates that the migrants are not from a war-torn country, and thus, not eligible for the protection

http://time.com/5309812/mv-aquarius-mig ... ean-union/

came to the aid of several dinghy-loads of imperiled migrants who had set off from the Libyan coast for Europe,

Libya is a place we would offer asylum from.

True, but since the fall of Gaddafi, UN sent numerous waves of peacekeepers from multiple nations to peacekeep in the nation, and the nation frankly is less and less chaotic over the years. Also, just because they set off from Libya, doesn't necessarily mean they are from Libya.

[Eclius]

Also, to build upon what I said, another article stated that "The Aquarius migrants, mainly sub-Saharan Africans, were picked up off Libya's coast at the weekend". And if consider the geographical outline of Africa, Libya is NOT a sub-saharan nation. +



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44452760

[Fartsniffage]

Libya is a place we would offer asylum from.

True, but since the fall of Gaddafi, UN sent numerous waves of peacekeepers from multiple nations to peacekeep in the nation, and the nation frankly is less and less chaotic over the years. Also, just because they set off from Libya, doesn't necessarily mean they are from Libya.

But you don't know that until they are processed. It seems like a good idea for them to be processed. Why do you have an issue with that?

[The Republic of Fore]

It's not for the lulz. It's because Italy has no reason to take them. "Boo hoo their country sucks". So does most of planet earth. International courts can cry all they want. Send them home.

1951 Refugee Convention disagrees. Italy signed and ratified it.

As I said before, I'm sure the strongly worded letter they get in return will be very frightening. The US signed various treaties on the usage of chemical weapons. We still dropped white phosphorous on Iraqi insurgents.

[Ifreann]

It's physically possible, but that's irrelevant, because sensible people don't go around violating international norms for the lulz, and deranged morons only rarely come to be in charge of countries. Italy could just expel all refugees to wherever they came from. Or expel them all to Syria, regardless of where they came from. Or throw them all in a big pit and encase them in concrete. But they won't. Italy isn't going to set about killing people, directly or indirectly, because "Not our problem".

---

Compassion doesn't fix budget issues or financial crises.

---

No, that's stupid.

It's not for the lulz. It's because Italy has no reason to take them.

Basic human decency is a reason, even if you personally place no value on the concept.

"Boo hoo their country sucks". So does most of planet earth. International courts can cry all they want. Send them home.

This is an infantile view of how the world works and I'm rapidly losing interest in dealing with it. Italy is not going to just ignore international law. They won't. No matter how badly you want them to, they won't, because paying for all the refugees ever would be less hassle than being a European North Korea, or worse, a second Nazi Germany.

---

Libya is a place we would offer asylum from.

True, but since the fall of Gaddafi, UN sent numerous waves of peacekeepers from multiple nations to peacekeep in the nation, and the nation frankly is less and less chaotic over the years. Also, just because they set off from Libya, doesn't necessarily mean they are from Libya.

Gosh, with all the possible places and circumstances they could have come from, there might be no way to tell who among them qualifies as a refugee and who doesn't.

Maybe...

Maybe they'll have to be allowed to come ashore and processed there...

[Eclius]

True, but since the fall of Gaddafi, UN sent numerous waves of peacekeepers from multiple nations to peacekeep in the nation, and the nation frankly is less and less chaotic over the years. Also, just because they set off from Libya, doesn't necessarily mean they are from Libya.

But you don't know that until they are processed. It seems like a good idea for them to be processed. Why do you have an issue with that?

The issue I have is that it's unfair to ppl who also applied for the status, but through legal and proper ways.

[The Republic of Fore]

It's not for the lulz. It's because Italy has no reason to take them.

Basic human decency is a reason, even if you personally place no value on the concept.

"Boo hoo their country sucks". So does most of planet earth. International courts can cry all they want. Send them home.

This is an infantile view of how the world works and I'm rapidly losing interest in dealing with it. Italy is not going to just ignore international law. They won't. No matter how badly you want them to, they won't, because paying for all the refugees ever would be less hassle than being a European North Korea, or worse, a second Nazi Germany.

---

True, but since the fall of Gaddafi, UN sent numerous waves of peacekeepers from multiple nations to peacekeep in the nation, and the nation frankly is less and less chaotic over the years. Also, just because they set off from Libya, doesn't necessarily mean they are from Libya.

Gosh, with all the possible places and circumstances they could have come from, there might be no way to tell who among them qualifies as a refugee and who doesn't.

Maybe...

Maybe they'll have to be allowed to come ashore and processed there...

It's not basic human decency to take people who hired a criminal to help them sneak into your country. Italy can hardly take care of their own citizens. Y'know the people who actually contribute to their society. Nationals should always come first over foreigners. Whether they have a sob story or not. The US violates treaties we've signed all the time. And we're far from north korea 2.0

[Eclius]

It's not for the lulz. It's because Italy has no reason to take them.

Basic human decency is a reason, even if you personally place no value on the concept.

"Boo hoo their country sucks". So does most of planet earth. International courts can cry all they want. Send them home.

This is an infantile view of how the world works and I'm rapidly losing interest in dealing with it. Italy is not going to just ignore international law. They won't. No matter how badly you want them to, they won't, because paying for all the refugees ever would be less hassle than being a European North Korea, or worse, a second Nazi Germany.

---

True, but since the fall of Gaddafi, UN sent numerous waves of peacekeepers from multiple nations to peacekeep in the nation, and the nation frankly is less and less chaotic over the years. Also, just because they set off from Libya, doesn't necessarily mean they are from Libya.

Gosh, with all the possible places and circumstances they could have come from, there might be no way to tell who among them qualifies as a refugee and who doesn't.

Maybe...

Maybe they'll have to be allowed to come ashore and processed there...

Well, when it comes down to "basic human decency", also keep in mind that Italy's own domestic poverty rate is increasing throughout the years. And frankly, as I said to Herp, the resources under a nation's possession is limited, frankly, Italian government did the right thing, and should look into improving the living condition for domestic ppl instead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mic-slumps

[Eclius]

Basic human decency is a reason, even if you personally place no value on the concept.

This is an infantile view of how the world works and I'm rapidly losing interest in dealing with it. Italy is not going to just ignore international law. They won't. No matter how badly you want them to, they won't, because paying for all the refugees ever would be less hassle than being a European North Korea, or worse, a second Nazi Germany.

---

Gosh, with all the possible places and circumstances they could have come from, there might be no way to tell who among them qualifies as a refugee and who doesn't.

Maybe...

Maybe they'll have to be allowed to come ashore and processed there...

It's not basic human decency to take people who hired a criminal to help them sneak into your country. Italy can hardly take care of their own citizens. Y'know the people who actually contribute to their society. Nationals should always come first over foreigners. Whether they have a sob story or not. The US violates treaties we've signed all the time. And we're far from north korea 2.0

Exactly!!!

[Kantria]

Threads like these are why, more and more, I think the apocalypse can't come soon enough. Fuck humanity. We had our shot; we squandered it.

[Ifreann]

Basic human decency is a reason, even if you personally place no value on the concept.

This is an infantile view of how the world works and I'm rapidly losing interest in dealing with it. Italy is not going to just ignore international law. They won't. No matter how badly you want them to, they won't, because paying for all the refugees ever would be less hassle than being a European North Korea, or worse, a second Nazi Germany.

---

Gosh, with all the possible places and circumstances they could have come from, there might be no way to tell who among them qualifies as a refugee and who doesn't.

Maybe...

Maybe they'll have to be allowed to come ashore and processed there...

It's not basic human decency to take people who hired a criminal to help them sneak into your country.

Look, first, the 629 people on the Aquarius are still on their way to Spain. You don't know what arrangements any of them made. You just don't. Second, none of them were trying to sneak into Italy. They were rescued off the coast of Libya by the Aquarius. No sneaking involved. Third, of fucking course it's basic human decency to help people in need at sea. Fucking duh.

Italy can hardly take care of their own citizens. Y'know the people who actually contribute to their society. Nationals should always come first over foreigners.

Maybe if you're the heartless kind of person who values paperwork over human life.

Whether they have a sob story or not. The US violates treaties we've signed all the time.

Not really. The US mostly doesn't ratify treaties it doesn't like.

And we're far from north korea 2.0

Because you haven't made pariahs of yourselves by ignoring international laws and norms. But if you started doing that, then you would come to be seen as like North Korea and treated accordingly.

[Ifreann]

Basic human decency is a reason, even if you personally place no value on the concept.

This is an infantile view of how the world works and I'm rapidly losing interest in dealing with it. Italy is not going to just ignore international law. They won't. No matter how badly you want them to, they won't, because paying for all the refugees ever would be less hassle than being a European North Korea, or worse, a second Nazi Germany.

---

Gosh, with all the possible places and circumstances they could have come from, there might be no way to tell who among them qualifies as a refugee and who doesn't.

Maybe...

Maybe they'll have to be allowed to come ashore and processed there...

Well, when it comes down to "basic human decency", also keep in mind that Italy's own domestic poverty rate is increasing throughout the years. And frankly, as I said to Herp, the resources under a nation's possession is limited, frankly, Italian government did the right thing, and should look into improving the living condition for domestic ppl instead.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... mic-slumps

I hardly think that the cost of these 629 people would have bankrupted Italy and left the Italian people starving in the streets.

Of course, if it did, I'd be the one saying that Europe should help their Italian neighbours fleeing their broken country, and you guys would be demanding they be left to fix their own country or die trying.

Weird how your concern for foreigners is so selective.

[Conserative Morality]

I hardly think that the cost of these 629 people would have bankrupted Italy and left the Italian people starving in the streets.

Of course, if it did, I'd be the one saying that Europe should help their Italian neighbours fleeing their broken country, and you guys would be demanding they be left to fix their own country or die trying.

No, that only applies to brown people.

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

And your proof that all 600 of those people on the boat would do that is where?

I thought everyone was innocent until proven guilty, so why do you assume that?

Well they were quite willing to pay a human trafficker criminal to help them violate international immigration law, so they're already proved willing to break the law once.

It's one thing to hope that bad things won't happen and they magically will all be accepted and thankful, but the world doesn't run on magical thinking and hopes and dreams.

I cannot see the immorality of non-violently breaking a law to save many lives. And also, I would not consider breaking a law in a life and death circumstance to be a true crime.

I can much more easily justify illegal immigration, even that involving human trafficking to reach freedom, than I can justify war.