Italy turns away ship of 600 illegal migrants

[Puldania]

What does religion implicitly have to do with someone's political views?
By that logic, may as well ban 4chan as well.

The point is to ensure all children receive the same educational instruction on why intolerance, even religiously inspired, and so on are bad.
You aren't forcing children to log in to 4chan.
Parents forcing children to attend sermons on their inferiority or the inferiority of their peers, or on their inequality, and so on is psychological abuse.

Have you ever been to a sermon? Methinks not.

[Krasny-Volny]

Well, if Africa and the middle east weren't shit they wouldn't be coming to us and eventually causing mass poverty, overpopulation and even Sharia law if it gets really bad.

We, or they, or both need to help fix their nations. I mean, come on, think about it. The more developed a country is, the better the economy and technology, so that means quicker advancment of tech if we all work toghther. If we also make them democratic then there will be better cooporation, therefore we get to Mars quicker. It's a win-win situation (provided they help our economy recover after wards as a thank you).

It's not that simple.

There are many countries that are both a) developmentally retarded and b) undemocratic precisely because of their culture (unless they have a massive natural resource to compensate for their stifling of their own development, ie Saudi Arabia). In this case, giving them money and offering to work with them to develop won't change anything.

Degenerative cultures cannot produce First World economies.

For example, a culture which stifles intellectual pursuits for religious purposes will keep the country undeveloped. A culture with literally zero social mobility and rigidly enforced castes (whether religious or tribal) encourages nepotism and prevents smart people from underprivileged classes from bettering the nation, even if they do excel academically or develop specialized skills. A culture in which the energy of the people - which generates wealth in developed nations - is not directed towards producing wealth, but rather in seizing as much as they can from others at the expense of everybody else, discourages entrepreneurship and stifles ambition. A culture of clan violence, in which people believe that there's no need to work towards producing their own assets when they can simply kill others for theirs, will keep the nation too unstable to develop.

[Gravlen]

Even citizens could end up broke and homeless, and also turn to crime. What happens in those situations?

Luckily, we have relatively functional social security systems and criminal justice systems which can handle such things.

So you do agree with me that repatriation is not a consideration when we're talking about asylum seekers who turn to crime.

I don't know how I could have worded my post differently to ensure that you didn't misunderstand my post...

No, I don't agree. The principle of non refoulement, i.e. the principle that people aren't returned to countries where they face dangers of persecution, stands even for criminals.

However, I think that any criminal conviction should lead to an automatic reassessment of refugee status, in order to ascertain whether the situation has changed for the individual in question and asylum status can be revoked or withdrawed.

[Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio]

Is your view on assimilation only for ridding populations of hatred? If so, that should also be applied to the native populations.

Hatred and backward practices, yes. It already is applied to the native population in many ways.

I am still used to assimilation meaning giving up a culture and language completely except when in private. I wish it were applied to the citizens more in the USA.

[Puldania]

Well, if Africa and the middle east weren't shit they wouldn't be coming to us and eventually causing mass poverty, overpopulation and even Sharia law if it gets really bad.

We, or they, or both need to help fix their nations. I mean, come on, think about it. The more developed a country is, the better the economy and technology, so that means quicker advancment of tech if we all work toghther. If we also make them democratic then there will be better cooporation, therefore we get to Mars quicker. It's a win-win situation (provided they help our economy recover after wards as a thank you).

It's not that simple.

There are many countries that are both a) developmentally retarded and b) undemocratic precisely because of their culture (unless they have a massive natural resource to compensate for their stifling of their own development, ie Saudi Arabia). In this case, giving them money and offering to work with them to develop won't change anything.

Degenerative cultures cannot produce First World economies.

For example, a culture which stifles intellectual pursuits for religious purposes will keep the country undeveloped. A culture with literally zero social mobility and rigidly enforced castes (whether religious or tribal) encourages nepotism and prevents smart people from underprivileged classes from bettering the nation, even if they do excel academically or develop specialized skills. A culture in which the energy of the people - which generates wealth in developed nations - is not directed towards producing wealth, but rather in seizing as much as they can from others at the expense of everybody else, discourages entrepreneurship and stifles ambition. A culture of clan violence, in which people believe that there's no need to work towards producing their own assets when they can simply kill others for theirs, will keep the nation too unstable to develop.

from what I've read about Sunni Islam, it was originally centered on the idea that the Caliph should be chosen by the Muslim community. Doesn't sound undemocratic to me.

I can agree with some of this. But cultures are not implicitly backwards. Society and Culture are intertwined, but not the same. If a society is backwards, it's going to be backwards regardless of what culture it is.

[Puldania]

Hatred and backward practices, yes. It already is applied to the native population in many ways.

I am still used to assimilation meaning giving up a culture and language completely except when in private. I wish it were applied to the citizens more in the USA.

that's bullshit though.
As long as you can communicate in the language of the country you live in, you should be allowed to use whatever language whenever you want, and practice whatever practices you want (within reason).

[Ostroeuropa]

Hatred and backward practices, yes. It already is applied to the native population in many ways.

I am still used to assimilation meaning giving up a culture and language completely except when in private. I wish it were applied to the citizens more in the USA.

Some culture is incompatible and needs to be given up, like circumcision.

[Puldania]

I am still used to assimilation meaning giving up a culture and language completely except when in private. I wish it were applied to the citizens more in the USA.

Some culture is incompatible and needs to be given up, like circumcision.

Circumcision is extremely prevalent in the U.S

[New yugoslavaia]

Should we make a separate thread discussing how to fix Africa and the middle east?

[Krasny-Volny]

Hatred and backward practices, yes. It already is applied to the native population in many ways.

I am still used to assimilation meaning giving up a culture and language completely except when in private. I wish it were applied to the citizens more in the USA.

As far as the objective of cultural assimilation is concerned, that still won't work. You can force somebody to give up all the beliefs they can hold in public, but they'll still hold those beliefs in private.

And those beliefs will, in turn, be passed on their children and their grandchildren. Nothing will change except people will be way more careful about what they say and do in public. The same attitudes will still be there a hundred from years now, and they will boil over and resurface in society eventually.

Don't believe me?

We saw this happen in the Middle Ages when Spanish and Sicilian Muslims were ordered to convert to Christianity.

The Jews preserved their religion in Europe this way despite centuries of persecution.

[Krasny-Volny]

It's not that simple.

There are many countries that are both a) developmentally retarded and b) undemocratic precisely because of their culture (unless they have a massive natural resource to compensate for their stifling of their own development, ie Saudi Arabia). In this case, giving them money and offering to work with them to develop won't change anything.

Degenerative cultures cannot produce First World economies.

For example, a culture which stifles intellectual pursuits for religious purposes will keep the country undeveloped. A culture with literally zero social mobility and rigidly enforced castes (whether religious or tribal) encourages nepotism and prevents smart people from underprivileged classes from bettering the nation, even if they do excel academically or develop specialized skills. A culture in which the energy of the people - which generates wealth in developed nations - is not directed towards producing wealth, but rather in seizing as much as they can from others at the expense of everybody else, discourages entrepreneurship and stifles ambition. A culture of clan violence, in which people believe that there's no need to work towards producing their own assets when they can simply kill others for theirs, will keep the nation too unstable to develop.

from what I've read about Sunni Islam, it was originally centered on the idea that the Caliph should be chosen by the Muslim community. Doesn't sound undemocratic to me.

I can agree with some of this. But cultures are not implicitly backwards. Society and Culture are intertwined, but not the same. If a society is backwards, it's going to be backwards regardless of what culture it is.

I always assumed that culture plays a predominant role in shaping society and societal norms.

[Ostroeuropa]

Some culture is incompatible and needs to be given up, like circumcision.

Circumcision is extremely prevalent in the U.S

So was slavery.

[Puldania]

Circumcision is extremely prevalent in the U.S

So was slavery.

Exactly.

Slavery and its existence will always be, in one form or another, an integral part of American culture.

CIrcumcision less so, but well, whatever.

The point is, Circumcision is not a foreign practice. It's practiced more in the U.S than in the countries these refugees are coming from.

[Ostroeuropa]

So was slavery.

Exactly.

Slavery and its existence will always be, in one form or another, an integral part of American culture.

CIrcumcision less so, but well, whatever.

The point is, Circumcision is not a foreign practice. It's practiced more in the U.S than in the countries these refugees are coming from.

Europe is different, and circumcision is a more fringe and criticized practice. The refugee crisis is primarily European.

[New yugoslavaia]

Exactly.

Slavery and its existence will always be, in one form or another, an integral part of American culture.

CIrcumcision less so, but well, whatever.

The point is, Circumcision is not a foreign practice. It's practiced more in the U.S than in the countries these refugees are coming from.

Europe is different, and circumcision is a more fringe and criticized practice. The refugee crisis is primarily European.

So, tell me. Why do you think it's happening. Anything to do with the dreaded EU Globalist cultural Marxists by any chance?

[The Republic of Fore]

Good, they should go a step further and order the navy to patrol the coasts as well.

[Dylar]

Good, they should go a step further and order the navy to patrol the coasts as well.

And do what? Blow up boats full of unarmed men women and children?

[Ostroeuropa]

Europe is different, and circumcision is a more fringe and criticized practice. The refugee crisis is primarily European.

So, tell me. Why do you think it's happening. Anything to do with the dreaded EU Globalist cultural Marxists by any chance?

Think what is happening? The refugee crisis?

Because we're a soft touch and have allowed islamophilia to permeate our institutions, as well as because we keep blowing up the middle east, and because having a functional border control or a functional assimilation system requires money that the rich don't want to spend, so they've decided to shill for multilculturalism since it requires no money on their part and is in fact merely the absence of spending to ensure a stable and secure populace.

[Eclius]

Then maybe wait til we don't NEED the food banks and stuff anymore before trying to take on more?

But lots of people need the food banks sense they where created.

And there is allways more to help.

But also do keep in mind this. I once volunteered at a salvation army food bank station close to where I live (for the 40 hrs volunteering requirement), and frankly, yes there was a lot of food, but really, it would not enough if we had tons of illegal immigrants in the area, the supply was plenty in the sense it was plenty for domestic ppl who needs help. And I should perhaps repeat myself, charity should always begin at home.

[New yugoslavaia]

So, tell me. Why do you think it's happening. Anything to do with the dreaded EU Globalist cultural Marxists by any chance?

Think what is happening? The refugee crisis?

Because we're a soft touch and have allowed islamophilia to permeate our institutions, as well as because we keep blowing up the middle east, and because having a functional border control or a functional assimilation system requires money that the rich don't want to spend, so they've decided to shill for multilculturalism since it requires no money on their part and is in fact merely the absence of spending to ensure a stable and secure populace.

Well then, let's have the far left and far right work together. Far right hate them for multiculturalism and the far left hate them because they're so bourgeoise it hurts.

[Ifreann]

Veterans and workers have paid their dues, a boat full of Africans hasn't exactly done the same to earn the same compassion.

If you earn it, it is payment, not compassion.

---

Weird that you keep insisting on compassion for workers and veterans then.

---

They've been invited to Spain.

Ugh. Why? What's the bloody point?

So they don't die at sea, obviously.

[The Republic of Fore]

Good, they should go a step further and order the navy to patrol the coasts as well.

And do what? Blow up boats full of unarmed men women and children?

Turn them away.

[The Republic of Fore]

Veterans and workers have paid their dues, a boat full of Africans hasn't exactly done the same to earn the same compassion.

If you earn it, it is payment, not compassion.

---

Ugh. Why? What's the bloody point?

So they don't die at sea, obviously.

That isn't our concern. Don't want to die at sea? Don't get in a boat. Quite simple.

[Dylar]

And do what? Blow up boats full of unarmed men women and children?

Turn them away.

I hope you know that the boats the refugees arrive on are not that sea-worthy. Also, where are they to go? There homes are either destroyed or being used as a command post by either the Syrian Rebels or Assad's forces. And they can't go back unless they want to be killed in the cross-fire.

[Ifreann]

If you earn it, it is payment, not compassion.

---

So they don't die at sea, obviously.

That isn't our concern. Don't want to die at sea? Don't get in a boat. Quite simple.

It is the concern of any nearby vessels. Law of the sea.