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Italy turns away ship of 600 illegal migrants

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The Portland Territory
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Postby The Portland Territory » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:03 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
They're not from Syria. They're from Africa.

Oh ok
So just horrible poverty, disease and civil wars

There's a lot of people like that in Italy and Europe already. How come theyre not also receiving government aid?
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:03 pm

The Portland Territory wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Poor desperate people, mostly fleeing a brutal civil war that’s killed many civilians

Errr, what wars? I dont recall anything going on there rn that's widespread or beyond local qualms.

Warlords and bandits are a problem that derserves running from
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:04 pm

The Portland Territory wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Oh ok
So just horrible poverty, disease and civil wars

There's a lot of people like that in Italy and Europe already. How come theyre not also receiving government aid?

I think all people should be helped irregardless of where their from
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Ieskarios
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Postby Ieskarios » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:04 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
They're not from Syria. They're from Africa.

Oh ok
So just horrible poverty, disease and civil wars

If we allow every nation that has some sort of civil conflict, disease or poverty woes, Europe's population is going to explode with migrants.

A vast majority of them should honestly just stay there, not risk their life sailing along the Mediterranean.
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:04 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
The South Falls wrote:We should really if we're going to take people in, redistribute who does it. From "some take many and some take none" to, "all take some". Otherwise, we've got nations like Italy faced with heartbreaking situations of turning away migrants at the border, and crushing their dreams, while other countries act indifferent towards the problem.


I'm (not) sorry for crushing these (illegal, may I remind you) immigrants' dreams.

There is an entire system they can apply for citizenship or asylum, and drifting across the Mediterranean on a flimsy dinghy with unattended children and pregnant women is not part of said system.

Most of them don't even come from war-torn countries!

You're not wrong on the bottom point. But, you still have that collective "Immigrants that did not apply to the system are not humans anymore, therefore they don't matter, fuck them." mentality. Applying for asylum requires cash. One thing that many of these migrants do not have. It takes less to be smuggled than to apply for citizenship.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:05 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
The Portland Territory wrote:Errr, what wars? I dont recall anything going on there rn that's widespread or beyond local qualms.

Warlords and bandits are a problem that derserves running from


We can't take every person who lives in a shitty place, nor should we be expected to.

Perhaps instead of running they can try to do some bloody good in their own countries.
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Democracy of California
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Postby Democracy of California » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:06 pm

Well, Mr. Matteo Salvini must surely be glad he wasn't born in Africa or the Middle East.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:06 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
The Portland Territory wrote:There's a lot of people like that in Italy and Europe already. How come theyre not also receiving government aid?

I think all people should be helped irregardless of where their from


And that's too idealistic and not at all rooted in reality.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:06 pm

Damn, Italy's spicing it up. It'll be interesting to watch how other countries react, aside from very strongly worded letters.
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The Portland Territory
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Postby The Portland Territory » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:06 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
The Portland Territory wrote:Errr, what wars? I dont recall anything going on there rn that's widespread or beyond local qualms.

Warlords and bandits are a problem that derserves running from

I'm trying not to tread the line Farn gave me, but why can't they just band together and drive out these warlords? Arm themselves and protect their communities?
Internationalist Bastard wrote:
The Portland Territory wrote:There's a lot of people like that in Italy and Europe already. How come theyre not also receiving government aid?

I think all people should be helped irregardless of where their from

Then why dont we focus on the people at home first rather than shitty aid to both parties at once?
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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:06 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Are they from Syria?


If I recall correctly, most of them are from North Africa or sub-Saharan Africa (both of which have basically no ongoing civil wars).


And that was actually rather true with the Syrian Crisis. Some of them simply took advantage of the situation, while some of them are also fleeing their own civil wars, actually.

From here:
As Hafez explained, "There are many people from Iraq, from Afghanistan. ... they say, 'I'M SYRIAN, I'M SYRIAN,' and they are not Syrian. I think maybe to get their people in faster." One source even told me how another refugee offered to buy his passport. "He is from Iraq or Afghanistan. ... He says, 'I will give you 3,000 euros for your Syrian passport.'"
...
Calling these people migrants makes their situation seem a lot less serious. "Migrant" sounds like they're rushing to Europe to find better jobs, rather than fleeing an unspeakably brutal war. But the truth is that even the refugees just pretending to be Syrian are still fleeing from places like Iraq and Afghanistan that are also convulsed by endless waves of warfare. A number of European leaders, like British Prime Minister David Cameron, are worried that many of the refugees might not be "genuine asylum seekers."
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Cryptomypt
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Postby Cryptomypt » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:07 pm

good. no country should be guilt tripped into accepting hordes of different people. it's bad for everyone; migrants and citizens alike. if immigrants have enough company, they won't be under as much pressure to assimilate quam celerrime. mass immigration is not necessarily good thing, especially in the scary times we live in.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:07 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Warlords and bandits are a problem that derserves running from


We can't take every person who lives in a shitty place, nor should we be expected to.

Perhaps instead of running they can try to do some bloody good in their own countries.

Yes
One person can solve problems like warlords, plaques and hunger
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:07 pm

Democracy of California wrote:Well, Mr. Matteo Salvini must surely be glad he wasn't born in Africa or the Middle East.


Some people get all the breaks.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:07 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
We can't take every person who lives in a shitty place, nor should we be expected to.

Perhaps instead of running they can try to do some bloody good in their own countries.

Yes
One person can solve problems like warlords, plaques and hunger


Millions of refugees is one person?
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The Portland Territory
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Postby The Portland Territory » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:09 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Yes
One person can solve problems like warlords, plaques and hunger


Millions of refugees is one person?

She's probably referring to the one armed North African, courtesy of gun control
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:10 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
We can't take every person who lives in a shitty place, nor should we be expected to.

Perhaps instead of running they can try to do some bloody good in their own countries.

Yes
One person can solve problems like warlords, plaques and hunger


Putin solved Oligarchs, Demographics, and Healthcare :P

Image

(Granted, he had a lot of help, anyways back to the thread)
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Western Vale Confederacy
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Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:11 pm

The South Falls wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
I'm (not) sorry for crushing these (illegal, may I remind you) immigrants' dreams.

There is an entire system they can apply for citizenship or asylum, and drifting across the Mediterranean on a flimsy dinghy with unattended children and pregnant women is not part of said system.

Most of them don't even come from war-torn countries!

You're not wrong on the bottom point. But, you still have that collective "Immigrants that did not apply to the system are not humans anymore, therefore they don't matter, fuck them." mentality. Applying for asylum requires cash. One thing that many of these migrants do not have. It takes less to be smuggled than to apply for citizenship.


Being smuggled costing less than applying for asylum, residency or citizenship is kind of nullified by them believing that risking their LIVES (which is kind of priceless considering you only have one) drifting across the Mediterranean on a dangerous raft or flimsy dinghy with not even a 100% guaranteed chance that whatever country you land in (if they make it to begin with) will accept them is somehow worth it.

And when some of these people decide to put UNATTENDED children or their pregnant wives on said dangerous ventures, one might question the sanity or resolve of those people at times.

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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:12 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Yes
One person can solve problems like warlords, plaques and hunger


Millions of refugees is one person?

Those people aren’t thinking like that. They’re seeing people die their families in danger and nobody doing anything. Out of desperation they flee for their lives, and take the first crappy boat they can get on to go somewhere better. Many of them drown, starve, die of thirst or heat stroke. And these people are on that brink when a ship rescues them. They’re told they’ll be on land soon. And before they can even touch the ground their turned around told to go back and try harder
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:13 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Democracy of California wrote:Well, Mr. Matteo Salvini must surely be glad he wasn't born in Africa or the Middle East.


Some people get all the breaks.

Things are rough all over.
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:14 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Millions of refugees is one person?

Those people aren’t thinking like that. They’re seeing people die their families in danger and nobody doing anything. Out of desperation they flee for their lives, and take the first crappy boat they can get on to go somewhere better. Many of them drown, starve, die of thirst or heat stroke. And these people are on that brink when a ship rescues them. They’re told they’ll be on land soon. And before they can even touch the ground their turned around told to go back and try harder


And this is why we need to rebuild Africa, rather than re-bomb Africa. Ditto for the Middle East.
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:14 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
The South Falls wrote:You're not wrong on the bottom point. But, you still have that collective "Immigrants that did not apply to the system are not humans anymore, therefore they don't matter, fuck them." mentality. Applying for asylum requires cash. One thing that many of these migrants do not have. It takes less to be smuggled than to apply for citizenship.


Being smuggled costing less than applying for asylum, residency or citizenship is kind of nullified by them believing that risking their LIVES (which is kind of priceless considering you only have one) drifting across the Mediterranean on a dangerous raft or flimsy dinghy with not even a 100% guaranteed chance that whatever country you land in (if they make it to begin with) will accept them is somehow worth it.

And when some of these people decide to put UNATTENDED children or their pregnant wives on said dangerous ventures, one might question the sanity or resolve of those people at times.

Depending on who your smuggler is. Anyway, it takes forever to become a citizen. Are you going to sit and wait for 10 years to flee your dire conditions?
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The Portland Territory
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Postby The Portland Territory » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:14 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Millions of refugees is one person?

Those people aren’t thinking like that. They’re seeing people die their families in danger and nobody doing anything. Out of desperation they flee for their lives, and take the first crappy boat they can get on to go somewhere better. Many of them drown, starve, die of thirst or heat stroke. And these people are on that brink when a ship rescues them. They’re told they’ll be on land soon. And before they can even touch the ground their turned around told to go back and try harder

The Armenian community in Aleppo and Iraq has for the most part remained in their homeland. Thousands from Aleppo fled to Armenia though thousands more from the rural areas still remain in their communities guarded by militias of locally-organized men. They've fought back ISIS and even other Islamic forces

If they can do it I'm pretty sure many others can.
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:15 pm

Thread: Something something EBIL REFUGEES THAT STEAL OUR JOBS AND ARE TOO LAZY TO WORK Something something

Me: Something something helping humans that need help is good something something this was bad something something
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Postby Germanic Templars » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:15 pm

Trumptonium1 wrote:It's beginning!

Italy's new interior minister threatened to bar rescue ships from docking in the country's ports after Malta refused to take hundreds of migrants, reports say. Matteo Salvini sent a letter to the Maltese authorities saying he would 'be forced to close Italy's ports' if the 629 migrants saved by the French charity SOS Mediterranee weren't allowed to land at Malta's capital Valletta. SOS Mediterranee said the passengers on its ship, the Aquarius, included 400 people who were picked up by the Italian navy, the country's coastguard and private cargo ships and transferred.

The rescue ship's crew pulled 229 migrants from the water or from traffickers' unseaworthy boats on Saturday night, including 123 unaccompanied children and seven pregnant women. 'Our sole objective is to bring the people we've rescued, in difficult conditions yesterday, to a port of safety,' the group said in a statement.

Leader of the anti-migrant League party Mr Salvini, also deputy prime minister, tweeted yesterday: 'Starting today, Italy, too, begins to say NO to the trafficking of human beings, NO to the business of clandestine immigration'.

The aid group said in a statement it had taken 'good note' of Mr Salvini's stance, as reported earlier by Italian media. It added that the Aquarius 'is still waiting for definitive instructions regarding the port of safety'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... women.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44432056

(BBC)

He said on Sunday that Italy was saying "no to human trafficking, no to the business of illegal immigration".

"Malta takes in nobody," he said. "France pushes people back at the border, Spain defends its frontier with weapons."

"It is not possible for Malta to say 'no' to every request for help. The Good Lord put Malta closer than Sicily to Africa."

Last week, Mr Salvini said Rome should increase its deportations of migrants and the Italian government also wants to relocate asylum seekers EU-wide - a scheme already rejected by some member states.

Mr Salvini says he is considering action against organisations rescuing migrants at sea. He has previously accused them of being in cahoots with people-smugglers.

The government's critics say its plan to repatriate migrants is unworkable and risks fomenting racism and politicising a humanitarian issue. A controversial deal between Italy's former government and authorities in Libya has led to a drop in overall arrivals since last summer but Italian officials say 13,500 migrants have been registered so far this year.

Mr Salvini earlier accused the Maltese government of not doing its fair share when another rescue ship, the Seefuchs, was stranded in volatile seas with 126 migrants on board. Malta reportedly refused to send assistance to the vessel and it was allowed to dock in the Sicilian port of Pozzallo on Saturday, the non-governmental organisation Sea Watch reported. Malta's government insisted it had adhered to all its obligations regarding immigration.


Thoughts?

I think this is a good first step by a frontline country (bar Turkey, for ulterior motives) to stem the flow of clandestine immigration into Europe.


I am quite happy to hear this.

  • INTP
  • All American Patriotic Constitutionalist/Classic libertarian (with fiscal conservatism)
  • Religiously Tolerant
  • Roman Catholic
  • Hoplophilic/ammosexual
  • X=3.13, Y=2.41
  • Supports the Blue


I support Capitalism do you? If so, put this in your sig.

XY = Male, XX = Female

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