Libertarian Discussion Thread II - Don't Thread on Me

[Mushet]

Let's hope so, preferably more than a bit

So, your opinions on the abolition of currency and the mechanized automation of all labor, thus reducing man to a life of luxurious leisure?

Luxury gay space communism?

Sounds pretty meaningless to me. I don't see much desirability, labor is just a part of life, and I don't see it doing much good for us to swear off of it, I think it does us some good. The problem is when that work becomes overbearing and alienating.

[Puldania]

So, your opinions on the abolition of currency and the mechanized automation of all labor, thus reducing man to a life of luxurious leisure?

Luxury gay space communism?

Sounds pretty meaningless to me. I don't see much desirability, labor is just a part of life, and I don't see it doing much good for us to swear off of it, I think it does us some good. The problem is when that work becomes overbearing and alienating.

Of course, people can still work, they just wouldn't need to. It would be all about you doing you.

For example, I could write music and not have to worry about a steady source of money.

[Torrocca]

Does this thread include Left-wing Anarchy, or is it exclusive to the American conservative-libertarian party?

There is left libertarianism, most of the regulars are fairly right wing though. The left-right bickering on here is pretty bad, but that has more to do with the attitudes of the posters involved.

I like my bickering, thank you very much

[Darussalam]

The Qatari/UAE/Singapore policy is exactly how you're supposed to help the global poor - through employing their labor and paying them on par with their productivity. By pure utilitarian measures they are more altruistic than Western industrialized countries ever could be. That it is hierarchical/inegalitarian is exactly the point and herein lies the virtue of open border. Progressivism is just too diseased to even attempt to accomplish its own goal.

[Torrocca]

The Qatari/UAE/Singapore policy is exactly how you're supposed to help the global poor - through employing their labor and paying them on par with their productivity. By pure utilitarian measures they are more altruistic than Western industrialized countries ever could be. That it is hierarchical/inegalitarian is exactly the point and herein lies the virtue of open border. Progressivism is just too diseased to even attempt to accomplish its own goal.

>"Qatar and the UAE help the global poor!"
>Literal enslavement

[Puldania]

The Qatari/UAE/Singapore policy is exactly how you're supposed to help the global poor - through employing their labor and paying them on par with their productivity. By pure utilitarian measures they are more altruistic than Western industrialized countries ever could be. That it is hierarchical/inegalitarian is exactly the point and herein lies the virtue of open border. Progressivism is just too diseased to even attempt to accomplish its own goal.

>"Qatar and the UAE help the global poor!"
>Literal enslavement

Don't look directly in its eyes.

[Darussalam]

Poor working safety and standard does not equate literal enslavement. Keralan workers in Dubai aren't kidnapped against their will, an overwhelming majority of them voluntarily enter into labor contract to gain wage premium in a wealthier city and send remittances to finance the literal communist government back home.

[Torrocca]

Poor working safety and standard does not equate literal enslavement. Keralan workers in Dubai aren't kidnapped against their will, an overwhelming majority of them voluntarily enter into labor contract to gain wage premium in a wealthier city and send remittances to finance the literal communist government back home.

>Implying the UAE doesn't have literal enslavement despite numerous recorded instances of actual kidnappings and enslavements of foreigners, even abroad

[Darussalam]

Right, that is exactly what I implied, that the UAE has zero forced labor. Sure.

[Torrocca]

Right, that is exactly what I implied, that the UAE has zero forced labor. Sure.

Might as well have when you turned my statement of, "the UAE literally enslaves people!" into, "poor working safety isn't slavery."

[Proctopeo]

Let's hope so, preferably more than a bit

So, your opinions on the abolition of currency and the mechanized automation of all labor, thus reducing man to a life of luxurious leisure?

Pipe dream, especially since much of labor can't be automated, if we're using "labor" broadly. If we're using it narrowly, to just mean hard or arduous work, it's still a pipe dream, since some of those jobs, while not impossible to automate, would still be one hell of a task to do so.

[Darussalam]

Might as well have when you turned my statement of, "the UAE literally enslaves people!" into, "poor working safety isn't slavery."

Either it's reading comprehension that isn't your strong suit, or goal-shifting is. Re-read my post again.

Modern slavery exists, and they do in virtually all countries.

[Torrocca]

Might as well have when you turned my statement of, "the UAE literally enslaves people!" into, "poor working safety isn't slavery."

Either it's reading comprehension that isn't your strong suit, or goal-shifting is. Re-read my post again.

Modern slavery exists, and they do in virtually all countries.

I've read your post about three times now, and all it screams to me is that you shifted the goalposts from my point that the UAE and Qatar literally enslave people, and thus are not how you're supposed to help the global poor, to an asinine statement of poor working safety and standards, as if that was what I was talking about.

[Darussalam]

I've read your post about three times now, and all it screams to me is that you shifted the goalposts from my point that the UAE and Qatar literally enslave people, and thus are not how you're supposed to help the global poor, to an asinine statement of poor working safety and standards, as if that was what I was talking about.

The UAE and Qatar also literally reject workers, and thus are not how you're supposed to help the global poor.

See how ridiculous this sounds?

[Torrocca]

I've read your post about three times now, and all it screams to me is that you shifted the goalposts from my point that the UAE and Qatar literally enslave people, and thus are not how you're supposed to help the global poor, to an asinine statement of poor working safety and standards, as if that was what I was talking about.

The UAE and Qatar also literally reject workers, and thus are not how you're supposed to help the global poor.

See how ridiculous this sounds?

I like how you're ignoring the point of s l a v e r y.

As in, the enslavement of people.

Specifically practiced by these two countries, in addition to the widespread human rights abuses of both countries.

But I guess that's exactly how you're supposed to help the global poor, according to you.

[Darussalam]

Only now I truly realized the inviolable truth of Caplanism.

Let's clear this out. I'm specifically pointing out to the Gulf monarchy guest worker programs as better than Western immigration policy in helping the global poor. That has been, consistently, my point since the very beginning. Hence the contrast between supposedly "reactionary" and "progressive" policy. The point about Yemeni kidnapping is entirely non-sequitur. I already said that modern slavery exists in virtually all countries, including Western ones.

[Torrocca]

Only now I truly realized the inviolable truth of Caplanism.

Let's clear this out. I'm specifically pointing out to the Gulf monarchy guest worker programs as better than Western immigration policy in helping the global poor. That has been, consistently, my point since the very beginning. Hence the contrast between supposedly "reactionary" and "progressive" policy. The point about Yemeni kidnapping is entirely non-sequitur. I already said that modern slavery exists in virtually all countries, including Western ones.

You never said slavery exists everywhere here.

Besides that, the Gulf monarchy programs are shit-filled shit, chock full of human rights abuses, fucktons of exploitation of cheap/free labor, and sometimes enslavement of their own.

[Darussalam]

You never said slavery exists everywhere here.

if you really need someone else to point this to you we have a bigger problem

Besides that, the Gulf monarchy programs are shit-filled shit, chock full of human rights abuses, fucktons of exploitation of cheap/free labor, and sometimes enslavement of their own.

It treats potential migrants far better than any rich liberal democracy if we're using the immigrants' expectation and net well-being as the measurement here. In most demotist countries an overwhelming majority of Gulf workers rewarded with wage premium would be denied entry, let alone employment, let alone wage premium, by jealous workforce holding hostage of an atavistic, paranoid government by appealing to "culture" and "traditions".

[Torrocca]

You never said slavery exists everywhere here.

if you really need someone else to point this to you we have a bigger problem

Lol, nice deflection from me calling out your obviously false statement.

Besides that, the Gulf monarchy programs are shit-filled shit, chock full of human rights abuses, fucktons of exploitation of cheap/free labor, and sometimes enslavement of their own.

It treats potential migrants far better than any rich liberal democracy if we're using the immigrants' expectation and net well-being as the measurement here. In most demotist countries an overwhelming majority of Gulf workers rewarded with wage premium would be denied entry, let alone employment, let alone wage premium, by jealous workforce holding hostage of an atavistic, paranoid government by appealing to "culture" and "traditions".

>Human rights abuses
>worker exploitation out the ass
>the occasional enslavement of migrant workers, among others
>"Th-they treat migrant workers better than other places!"

Hmmmmm

[Darussalam]

Lol, nice deflection from me calling out your obviously false statement.

Either it's reading comprehension that isn't your strong suit, or goal-shifting is. Re-read my post again.

Modern slavery exists, and they do in virtually all countries.

>Human rights abuses
>worker exploitation out the ass
>the occasional enslavement of migrant workers, among others
>"Th-they treat migrant workers better than other places!"

Hmmmmm

Imagine a young man living in the Indian state of Kerala.

He is living in a communist state - it's a democracy, and supposedly milder and more successful than more explicitly Marxist-authoritarian regimes. But still, it's unemployment rate is one of the highest in India, and the wage it offers for work that you can do is very, very low. Kerala has a fairly high living standard for an Indian state, but in doing so it relied on high remittances sent by workers abroad. Kerala has a very high rate of emigration and brain drain.

You can't force the young man to do academician/brahminite jobs, like the progressives expect. You can't force the young man to do high-productivity, professional, or white-collar work. All he can do is menial labor - as is the case for most of the workforce in his state. There are several options here: he could stay in his own country and work a low-earning menial job. He could go to one of the Western liberal democracies, with high chance of denied entry, and even no guarantee of work if he is allowed entry thanks to heavily-protected labor market. Or he could work in construction projects in Dubai or Doha, or houses in Singapore or Hong Kong - the wages are probably slavery-standard to the taste of the affluent natives, but certainly far higher than back home, there is higher chance of being granted entry, and he could send remittances to sustain Kerala's otherwise-dysfunctional welfare state.

The lesser evil is plain and obvious. Which one helps the third world the most is plain and obvious.

[Torrocca]

Lol, nice deflection from me calling out your obviously false statement.

Either it's reading comprehension that isn't your strong suit, or goal-shifting is. Re-read my post again.

Modern slavery exists, and they do in virtually all countries.

Huh, my bad. Sorry.

>Human rights abuses
>worker exploitation out the ass
>the occasional enslavement of migrant workers, among others
>"Th-they treat migrant workers better than other places!"

Hmmmmm

Imagine a young man living in the Indian state of Kerala.

He is living in a communist state - it's a democracy, and supposedly milder and more successful than more explicitly Marxist-authoritarian regimes. But still, it's unemployment rate is one of the highest in India, and the wage it offers for work that you can do is very, very low. Kerala has a fairly high living standard for an Indian state, but in doing so it relied on high remittances sent by workers abroad. Kerala has a very high rate of emigration and brain drain.

You can't force the young man to do academician/brahminite jobs, like the progressives expect. You can't force the young man to do high-productivity, professional, or white-collar work. All he can do is menial labor - as is the case for most of the workforce in his state. There are several options here: he could stay in his own country and work a low-earning menial job. He could go to one of the Western liberal democracies, with high chance of denied entry, and even no guarantee of work if he is allowed entry thanks to heavily-protected labor market. Or he could work in construction projects in Dubai or Doha, or houses in Singapore or Hong Kong - the wages are probably slavery-standard to the taste of the affluent natives, but certainly far higher than back home, there is higher chance of being granted entry, and he could send remittances to sustain Kerala's otherwise-dysfunctional welfare state.

The lesser evil is plain and obvious. Which one helps the third world the most is plain and obvious.

The lesser evil is still absolute dogshit, even when put into context. There shouldn't be situations of mass worker abuses, to the point of literal, physical abuses, exploitations to the point of making the rich incredibly richer while holding the poor down, and slavery-like standards or even literal slavery in several instances.

[Darussalam]

The lesser evil is still absolute dogshit, even when put into context. There shouldn't be situations of mass worker abuses, to the point of literal, physical abuses, exploitations to the point of making the rich incredibly richer while holding the poor down, and slavery-like standards or even literal slavery in several instances.

The right offers solutions and engineering, the left offers wailing and platitudes.

[Torrocca]

The lesser evil is still absolute dogshit, even when put into context. There shouldn't be situations of mass worker abuses, to the point of literal, physical abuses, exploitations to the point of making the rich incredibly richer while holding the poor down, and slavery-like standards or even literal slavery in several instances.

The right offers solutions and engineering, the left offers wailing and platitudes.

lolno

[Darussalam]

Well I haven't seen evidence of the opposite, at least.

Wages track marginal productivity of the worker, which is what happens to workers in Dubai. In Kerala which is administered by communists wages are even lower, and I don't think worker safety is any substantially better either, coupled with relatively high unemployment. Ditto for other parts of the third world, say Bangladesh.

This is also why Krugman defended sweatshops btw

[Torrocca]

Well I haven't seen evidence of the opposite, at least.

Wages track marginal productivity of the worker, which is what happens to workers in Dubai. In Kerala which is administered by communists wages are even lower, and I don't think worker safety is any substantially better either, coupled with relatively high unemployment. Ditto for other parts of the third world, say Bangladesh.

Revolutionary Catalonia, m8e.

This is also why Krugman defended sweatshops btw

Eww fuck that person