Libertarian Discussion Thread II - Don't Thread on Me

[Great Minarchistan]

"B-But muh minimum wage is what defines the living of workers!"

Bullshit. You're better off looking at hourly compensation, average salaries or median salaries. All of the three are miles better than your minimum wage sperg.


:thronking: intensifies

Any idea what makes Costa Rica and Bulgaria outliers here?

Not sure. Anyways, all of the countries follow the trend on a higher or lower degree, there's a clear path in there.

[Great Minarchistan]

It defines the living of quite a few workers in America, yes. :^)

Less than three percent, according to BLS. Using earnings of the top 5% and calling it as an example for the good outlook of American wages has a sample size twice as large, just so you can see the absurdity of your argument.

Average and median salary doesn't address the issue of those caught below either line.

Doesn't address the benefits of those caught above either line. If you wanna cherrypick and think solely about the half below any line, may as well be impartial and think about the half above any line either.

Hmm... data with no countries listed (except for four). Interesting.

Clearly falsified data!

This still doesn't change the fact that happiness =/= quality of life.

>Higher HDI leads to more happiness
>Torrocca has been refuted
>Instead of accepting it and move on, he delusionally negates the truth

Your debating skills here are deplorable. Perhaps you'd like to up the level of your discourse?

[Darussalam]

That argument has also been used to support Protestant immigration over Catholic immigration on the basis that the Protestant work ethic was beneficial and Catholics were all lazy, or whatever. Just look up the old arguments against Irish immigration, it's quite surprising how many of the same arguments are still being used against Mexicans today yet have no basis in fact.

However, to me, a person that is willing to leave behind everything to start anew in some foreign country already has the mettle of what it takes to be a model citizen.

Catholic immigrants (say, the Irish and Italian-Americans) are mostly beneficiaries of institutions shaped by high-trust "Protestant" immigrants from Britain and Scandinavia. As they comprised a small portion of a highly populous state i.e the US, they do not significantly influence the country's institutions through median voter theorem. In a way, you could say that Italian-Americans benefit alot from American institutions... by not having too many Italians in the country.

Regardless, I do not support discriminating immigrants on the basis of ethnicity. Ethnicity is a proxy for many things: largely genetic predisposition for intelligence, time preference, and trust, and not an entirely accurate one. Preferably I would prefer open border, with the caveat of limitation if not outright elimination of "political freedom", but as it is not possible in the present day then more practical measures such as sensible immigration policies ought to be implemented.

[Torrocca]

It defines the living of quite a few workers in America, yes. :^)

Less than three percent, according to BLS. Using earnings of the top 5% and calling it as an example for the good outlook of American wages has a sample size twice as large, just so you can see the absurdity of your argument.

That's only federal minimum wage. Go by state minimum wage and it's gonna be a lot higher.

Average and median salary doesn't address the issue of those caught below either line.

Doesn't address the benefits of those caught above either line. If you wanna cherrypick and think solely about the half below any line, may as well be impartial and think about the half above any line either.

Because I'm specifically talking about the people who aren't earning enough money to enjoy a quality life.

Hmm... data with no countries listed (except for four). Interesting.

Clearly falsified data!

I like how this just doesn't... address my point at all. lol

This still doesn't change the fact that happiness =/= quality of life.

>Higher HDI leads to more happiness
>Torrocca has been refuted
>Instead of accepting it and move on, he delusionally negates the truth

Your debating skills here are deplorable. Perhaps you'd like to up the level of your discourse?

HDI generally leads to more happiness, but quality of life =/= happiness. You can have outliers with shitty quality of life and a fuckton of happiness.

[Great Minarchistan]

That's only federal minimum wage. Go by state minimum wage and it's gonna be a lot higher.

Four percent? Is that really what you call a lot higher?

Because I'm specifically talking about the people who aren't earning enough money to enjoy a quality life.

People living with less than $33 a day in the US has been consistently around 10-15%.

I like how this just doesn't... address my point at all. lol

Or maybe you are just lazy to check up the data sheets espoused in my own source.

HDI generally leads to more happiness, but quality of life =/= happiness. You can have outliers with shitty quality of life and a fuckton of happiness.

Outliers below the trend are counterbalanced by outliers above the trend. That's why the trend exists, to make a median between both sides. Jesus, have you ever taken any statistics class?

[Torrocca]

That's only federal minimum wage. Go by state minimum wage and it's gonna be a lot higher.

Four percent? Is that really what you call a lot higher?

Your little source above there said nothing of the sort, because it says nothing about state minimum wages. :^)

Because I'm specifically talking about the people who aren't earning enough money to enjoy a quality life.

People living with less than $33 a day in the US has been consistently around 10-15%.

Which is clearly a huge issue that needs a fixin'.

I like how this just doesn't... address my point at all. lol

Or maybe you are just lazy to check up the data sheets espoused in my own source.

Ah yes, the... two data tables that don't give any country names except for four.

HDI generally leads to more happiness, but quality of life =/= happiness. You can have outliers with shitty quality of life and a fuckton of happiness.

Outliers below the trend are counterbalanced by outliers above the trend. That's why the trend exists, to make a median between both sides. Jesus, have you ever taken any statistics class?

Statistics are stupid, it's better to judge situations based on, y'know, actual situations than some numbers :^)

[Gfiewgjknsiorjgiostan]

How do you judge situations otherwise? Anecdotal evidence? That's hardly better.

[Torrocca]

How do you judge situations otherwise? Anecdotal evidence? That's hardly better.

Actual evidence is a good starting point. Saying shit ain't all that bad because muh scatter plots when there's people around who can say, "shit's actually pretty bad and we can show you from our first-hand experience," is pretty stupid, all things considered.

[Farnhamia]

Ah, yes, that explains why the US minimum wage hasn't gone up with inflation /s

"B-But muh minimum wage is what defines the living of workers!"

Bullshit. You're better off looking at hourly compensation, average salaries or median salaries. All of the three are miles better than your minimum wage sperg.

Happiness =/= quality of life either, believe it or not.

:thronking: intensifies

*** Warned for trolling. ***

[Great Minarchistan]

Your little source above there said nothing of the sort, because it says nothing about state minimum wages. :^)

It does actually, but you are too lazy to do ctrl+F and find for the word "state".

Which is clearly a huge issue that needs a fixin'.

This is where pro-investment policies step in

Ah yes, the... two data tables that don't give any country names except for four.

Your laziness to check sources is disturbing.

Statistics are stupid, it's better to judge situations based on, y'know, actual situations than some numbers :^)

If we gotta base our facts off anecdotes then your argument would be severely weakened as my region is way better off than the national average

[Great Minarchistan]

Actual evidence is a good starting point. Saying shit ain't all that bad because muh scatter plots when there's people around who can say, "shit's actually pretty bad and we can show you from our first-hand experience," is pretty stupid, all things considered.

Median income for my region is 2.5x above the national average, unemployment is about half of the national average, we receive a bulky funding for education, nice city infrastructure and same with internet and technological development. Not too far from here however you can find out clusters of impoverished cities where median income is pretty bad, unemployment is skyhigh and outlook for improvements is bleak. Relying on anecdotes from my region would tell you that everything is going alright, while relying on anecdotes from that other region would tell you that everything is pretty bad when the overall oversight is far from being any of both conclusions. As much as statistics are dehumanizing, they don't care about your feelings and do an excellent job at viewing the whole picture of the situation. But of course, there's nothing inherently wrong with regressing by centuries of scientific and technological progress and shifting your policy opinions to an anecdote-based system... or there is?

Calls such as you've just done are one of the main reasons for why the world cannot progress efficiently.

[Torrocca]

Your little source above there said nothing of the sort, because it says nothing about state minimum wages. :^)

It does actually, but you are too lazy to do ctrl+F and find for the word "state".

"The CPS does not include questions on whether workers are covered by the minimum wage provisions of the federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) or by individual state or local minimum wage laws."

o o f
o
f

Which is clearly a huge issue that needs a fixin'.

This is where pro-investment policies step in

Lol, yeah, because investing money is sure gonna help lmao.

Ah yes, the... two data tables that don't give any country names except for four.

Your laziness to check sources is disturbing.

Interesting how the UAE hits 14 there... despite having literal slavery going on. Hmmmm.

Statistics are stupid, it's better to judge situations based on, y'know, actual situations than some numbers :^)

If we gotta base our facts off anecdotes then your argument would be severely weakened as my region is way better off than the national average

Doesn't mean the situations of those not enjoying the benefits of living in a better off region should be ignored. Statistics tend to not actually express their situations, believe it or not.

[Torrocca]

Actual evidence is a good starting point. Saying shit ain't all that bad because muh scatter plots when there's people around who can say, "shit's actually pretty bad and we can show you from our first-hand experience," is pretty stupid, all things considered.

Median income for my region is 2.5x above the national average, unemployment is about half of the national average, we receive a bulky funding for education, nice city infrastructure and same with internet and technological development. Not too far from here however you can find out clusters of impoverished cities where median income is pretty bad, unemployment is skyhigh and outlook for improvements is bleak. Relying on anecdotes from my region would tell you that everything is going alright, while relying on anecdotes from that other region would tell you that everything is pretty bad when the overall oversight is far from being any of both conclusions. As much as statistics are dehumanizing, they don't care about your feelings and do an excellent job at viewing the whole picture of the situation. But of course, there's nothing inherently wrong with regressing by centuries of scientific and technological progress and shifting your policy opinions to an anecdote-based system... or there is?

Calls such as you've just done are one of the main reasons for why the world cannot progress efficiently.

Nah, statistics are still shit and, like you said, utterly dehumanizing. The actual, day-to-day situation should be looked at in regions, good and bad, and in the economically well-off and economically poor areas of said regions, to get an idea of what needs fixing and what's okay.

[Great Minarchistan]

It does actually, but you are too lazy to do ctrl+F and find for the word "state".

"The CPS does not include questions on whether workers are covered by the minimum wage provisions of the federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) or by individual state or local minimum wage laws."

o o f
o
f

"State of residence. The states with the highest percentages of hourly paid workers earning at or below the minimum wage were in the South: Kentucky, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina, Louisiana, and Virginia (all were about 4 percent). The states with the lowest percentages of hourly paid workers earning at or below the federal minimum wage were in the West or Midwest: California, Washington, Montana, and Minnesota (all were less than 1 percent). It should be noted that many states have minimum wage laws establishing standards that exceed the federal minimum wage. (See tables 2 and 3.)"
They don't track individual states, but they track regions, which include a handful of similar states. What were you saying again, oof?

Lol, yeah, because investing money is sure gonna help lmao.

Higher investment participation on the economy -> Higher job growth -> Lower unemployment -> Higher real wages
t. econ 101

Interesting how the UAE hits 14 there... despite having literal slavery going on. Hmmmm.

Something something something to do with their high hdi, extremely low homicide rates, high wages, good life expectancy, large access to technology and low gender inequality index. Hmmmmm, would you like to be less one-sided?

Doesn't mean the situations of those not enjoying the benefits of living in a better off region should be ignored. Statistics tend to not actually express their situations, believe it or not.

>What are scatter plots and how do they expose the identity and situation of all of the components studied
Once again, stats 101.

[Great Minarchistan]

Nah, statistics are still shit

"Statistics are shit because they ignore what I feel and what I believe that exists"
Keep living your dream, reality ain't what you expect it to be.

and, like you said, utterly dehumanizing.

And by consequence being perfect for policy modeling. You'll want to assert that your information is exempt from any irrational manipulation in order to define efficient policies.

The actual, day-to-day situation should be looked at in regions, good and bad, and in the economically well-off and economically poor areas of said regions, to get an idea of what needs fixing and what's okay.

>What is GeoFRED and how does it detail in data at county-level even

Big data does wonders nowadays.

[Torrocca]

"The CPS does not include questions on whether workers are covered by the minimum wage provisions of the federal Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) or by individual state or local minimum wage laws."

o o f
o
f

"State of residence. The states with the highest percentages of hourly paid workers earning at or below the minimum wage were in the South: Kentucky, Mississippi, Tennessee, South Carolina, Louisiana, and Virginia (all were about 4 percent). The states with the lowest percentages of hourly paid workers earning at or below the federal minimum wage were in the West or Midwest: California, Washington, Montana, and Minnesota (all were less than 1 percent). It should be noted that many states have minimum wage laws establishing standards that exceed the federal minimum wage. (See tables 2 and 3.)"
They don't track individual states, but they track regions, which include a handful of similar states. What were you saying again, oof?

Wee bit of difference there: that's still talking about the federal minimum wage, when I specifically said state minimum wages. But who cares about nuance, right? :^)

Lol, yeah, because investing money is sure gonna help lmao.

Higher investment participation on the economy -> Higher job growth -> Lower unemployment -> Higher real wages
t. econ 101

Hmm yeah lemme just

*Gilded Age job growth happens*

oof

Interesting how the UAE hits 14 there... despite having literal slavery going on. Hmmmm.

Something something something to do with their high hdi, extremely low homicide rates, high wages, good life expectancy, large access to technology and low gender inequality index. Hmmmmm, would you like to be less one-sided?

>TFW humans rights abuses and literal slavery don't get factored into HDI

Hmmmmmm

Doesn't mean the situations of those not enjoying the benefits of living in a better off region should be ignored. Statistics tend to not actually express their situations, believe it or not.

>What are scatter plots and how do they expose the identity and situation of all of the components studied
Once again, stats 101.

I refer you to, "statistics are stupid," :^)

[Torrocca]

Nah, statistics are still shit

"Statistics are shit because they ignore what I feel and what I believe that exists"
Keep living your dream, reality ain't what you expect it to be.

"Because of statistics, I don't believe in poverty actually existing"
Same to you :^)

and, like you said, utterly dehumanizing.

And by consequence being perfect for policy modeling. You'll want to assert that your information is exempt from any irrational manipulation in order to define efficient policies.

Oh yes, so perfect at defining efficient policies, in fact, that poverty's completely gone and corporate exploitations and abuses of workers both nationally and internationally have completely disappeared.

What's that, you say? Corporate sanctioned sweatshops that exploit impoverished people in developing nations? Never heard of 'em!

[Doosh]

Median income for my region is 2.5x above the national average, unemployment is about half of the national average, we receive a bulky funding for education, nice city infrastructure and same with internet and technological development. Not too far from here however you can find out clusters of impoverished cities where median income is pretty bad, unemployment is skyhigh and outlook for improvements is bleak. Relying on anecdotes from my region would tell you that everything is going alright, while relying on anecdotes from that other region would tell you that everything is pretty bad when the overall oversight is far from being any of both conclusions. As much as statistics are dehumanizing, they don't care about your feelings and do an excellent job at viewing the whole picture of the situation. But of course, there's nothing inherently wrong with regressing by centuries of scientific and technological progress and shifting your policy opinions to an anecdote-based system... or there is?

Calls such as you've just done are one of the main reasons for why the world cannot progress efficiently.

Nah, statistics are still shit and, like you said, utterly dehumanizing. The actual, day-to-day situation should be looked at in regions, good and bad, and in the economically well-off and economically poor areas of said regions, to get an idea of what needs fixing and what's okay.

And when you did that, what did you come up with?

[Torrocca]

Nah, statistics are still shit and, like you said, utterly dehumanizing. The actual, day-to-day situation should be looked at in regions, good and bad, and in the economically well-off and economically poor areas of said regions, to get an idea of what needs fixing and what's okay.

And when you did that, what did you come up with?

The world's fucked thanks to capitalism, basically.

[Doosh]

And when you did that, what did you come up with?

The world's fucked thanks to capitalism, basically.

Show your work.

[Rostavykhan]

"Statistics are shit because they ignore what I feel and what I believe that exists"
Keep living your dream, reality ain't what you expect it to be.

"Because of statistics, I don't believe in poverty actually existing"
Same to you :^)

And by consequence being perfect for policy modeling. You'll want to assert that your information is exempt from any irrational manipulation in order to define efficient policies.

Oh yes, so perfect at defining efficient policies, in fact, that poverty's completely gone and corporate exploitations and abuses of workers both nationally and internationally have completely disappeared.

What's that, you say? Corporate sanctioned sweatshops that exploit impoverished people in developing nations? Never heard of 'em!

B-b-but the chart says...

[Great Minarchistan]

Wee bit of difference there: that's still talking about the federal minimum wage, when I specifically said state minimum wages. But who cares about nuance, right? :^)

Ouch!
Still waiting on your evidence to prove yourself right [on the claim that people under state minimum are at a lot higher rate] anyways ;')

Hmm yeah lemme just

*Gilded Age job growth happens*

oof

Gilded Age had its unemployment falling from 10% in 1870 to 4% in 1890. Unsurprisingly, real wages also grew at a spectacular rate. Even more unsurprisingly, the Gilded Age was one of the longest and most pronounced economic expansions in the United States' history.

>TFW humans rights abuses and literal slavery don't get factored into HDI

Hmmmmmm

One percent are under alleged conditions of slavery. In the meanwhile, the large amount of people with good conditions -- as espoused through data -- counterbalances those few disadvantaged. ;')

I refer you to, "statistics are stupid," :^)

"muh statistics r stupid bc they disagree with that I think"

[Darussalam]

"Statistics are shit and dehumanizing" another galaxy brain moment for leftism lads

[Proctopeo]

How do you judge situations otherwise? Anecdotal evidence? That's hardly better.

Actual evidence is a good starting point. Saying shit ain't all that bad because muh scatter plots when there's people around who can say, "shit's actually pretty bad and we can show you from our first-hand experience," is pretty stupid, all things considered.

what level of woke are you on man to think that saying "actual evidence is good, but anecdotes are EVEN BETTER!" is anything more than hilarious

[Doosh]

Source?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... onomy.html (Although the current refugee crisis has made this a bit more complicated)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -ucl-study

In the US, it's around 55% of immigrants on welfare.

Opponents of immigration cite these figures.

As an opponent of welfare, I just love 'em. Crash the system!