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Libertarian Discussion Thread II - Don't Thread on Me

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is the best libertarian ideology?

Poll ended at Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:00 pm

Classical liberalism
32
48%
Minarchism
6
9%
Anarcho-capitalism
3
5%
Bakunin's anarchism
5
8%
Anarcho-syndicalism
11
17%
Other/Anarcho-statism
9
14%
 
Total votes : 66

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Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:00 am

Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23232
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:02 am

Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.


This is why I'm open to compromise with even social democrats and center-left liberals despite my unwavering optimism.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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Nordengrund
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7512
Founded: Jun 20, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nordengrund » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:19 am

Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.


I’ve become a lot more skeptical of governments and states and whether or not we actually need them, but I do think some anarchists and libertarians seem rather optimistic and idealistic to me, though i’m open to anarchism as an ideology.
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Frievolk
Minister
 
Posts: 3368
Founded: Jun 14, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Frievolk » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:20 am

Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.

Honestly tho, Anarchism is just a rational conclusion of the train of thought that started with The Age of Enlightenment: "The State is a Necessary Evil"
A necessary evil is still an evil after all.
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Phoenicaea
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Posts: 1054
Founded: May 24, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Phoenicaea » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:38 am

Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.


should revive anarchical dictatorship, as ancient roman republic

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Free Arabian Nation
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Posts: 1375
Founded: May 02, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Free Arabian Nation » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:05 pm

Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.

Most ideologies that rely on the good nature of man are.
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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23232
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:24 pm

Free Arabian Nation wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.

Most ideologies that rely on the good nature of man are.


My ideology relies on Bread Santa's (and my) understanding of the scientific principles of biological mutualism as related to the human condition :^3
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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Frievolk
Minister
 
Posts: 3368
Founded: Jun 14, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Frievolk » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:27 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Free Arabian Nation wrote:Most ideologies that rely on the good nature of man are.


My ideology relies on Bread Santa's (and my) understanding of the scientific principles of biological mutualism as related to the human condition :^3

Ok look, I'm as anarchic as the next guy but please don't mistake 19th century Scientific Romanticism with actual science.
OOC
Libertarian Constitutionalist
Part-time Anarchist
Anti-Monotheist
Iranian Nationalist
Templates
♔ The Frievolker Empire || Frievolker Kaiserreik
♔ The Realm in the Sun || De Reik in de Sonne
♔ Led by Kaiser Johann, Part of the Erstwelt
Never forget that the Muslims literally made up a new meaningless name for him when they forgot the name of Adam's Firstborn.

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23232
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:28 pm

Frievolk wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
My ideology relies on Bread Santa's (and my) understanding of the scientific principles of biological mutualism as related to the human condition :^3

Ok look, I'm as anarchic as the next guy but please don't mistake 19th century Scientific Romanticism with actual science.


b-b-but Mutual Aid is a legitimate scientific outlook on humanity ;~;
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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Free Arabian Nation
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1375
Founded: May 02, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Free Arabian Nation » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:28 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Frievolk wrote:Ok look, I'm as anarchic as the next guy but please don't mistake 19th century Scientific Romanticism with actual science.


b-b-but Mutual Aid is a legitimate scientific outlook on humanity ;~;

Yeah, within the tribe xd
الأمة العربية الحرة
I don't use NS Stats, they're just me trying to One-Up Chuck.
@The Chuck I'll get you one day, one day my weaponization will be higher
Baghdad Times: Nearly 1200 Eurasians surrender in Aleppo and Homs as their armies are surrounded... Typhoid outbreak ends in Egypt, but spreads to Al Luḩayyah, Yemen. The town is quarantined to prevent further spreading...  Leader of the French Government in Exile, Jamie Renders, dies at 60 of Heatstroke...

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23232
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:33 pm

Free Arabian Nation wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
b-b-but Mutual Aid is a legitimate scientific outlook on humanity ;~;

Yeah, within the tribe xd


It literally was written to refute social Darwinism and Scientific Romanticism in regards to the human condition while also ascribing mutualism to humanity's success ffs
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
Frievolk
Minister
 
Posts: 3368
Founded: Jun 14, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Frievolk » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:23 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Frievolk wrote:Ok look, I'm as anarchic as the next guy but please don't mistake 19th century Scientific Romanticism with actual science.


b-b-but Mutual Aid is a legitimate scientific outlook on humanity ;~;

I'm not openly denying that. I'm suggesting that using Kropotkin's contemporaries as evidence isn't really that brilliant an idea lol
OOC
Libertarian Constitutionalist
Part-time Anarchist
Anti-Monotheist
Iranian Nationalist
Templates
♔ The Frievolker Empire || Frievolker Kaiserreik
♔ The Realm in the Sun || De Reik in de Sonne
♔ Led by Kaiser Johann, Part of the Erstwelt
Never forget that the Muslims literally made up a new meaningless name for him when they forgot the name of Adam's Firstborn.

User avatar
Elwher
Minister
 
Posts: 3341
Founded: May 24, 2012
Anarchy

Postby Elwher » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:24 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Frievolk wrote:Ok look, I'm as anarchic as the next guy but please don't mistake 19th century Scientific Romanticism with actual science.


b-b-but Mutual Aid is a legitimate scientific outlook on humanity ;~;


Mutualism is a wonderful thing as long as it is voluntary. When it becomes enforced it turns into outright theft. As far as the comparisons to non human societies, be they bees, ants, or monkeys, they are not rational creatures so the analogies are severely flawed.
CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Ambrose Bierce

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23232
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:10 pm

Frievolk wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
b-b-but Mutual Aid is a legitimate scientific outlook on humanity ;~;

I'm not openly denying that. I'm suggesting that using Kropotkin's contemporaries as evidence isn't really that brilliant an idea lol


b-b-but I wasn't ;~;

Elwher wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
b-b-but Mutual Aid is a legitimate scientific outlook on humanity ;~;


Mutualism is a wonderful thing as long as it is voluntary. When it becomes enforced it turns into outright theft. As far as the comparisons to non human societies, be they bees, ants, or monkeys, they are not rational creatures so the analogies are severely flawed.


It's a much greater and much more heinous theft to the greater sum of humanity that one person may own a multitude of mansions, ships, and so forth.

And literally nobody said anything about enforced mutualism.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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Phoenicaea
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1054
Founded: May 24, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Phoenicaea » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:38 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Free Arabian Nation wrote:Most ideologies that rely on the good nature of man are.


My ideology relies on Bread Santa's (and my) understanding of the scientific principles of biological mutualism as related to the human condition :^3


'scientific principles of biological mutualism', at the moment i can t investigate about, it seems to me nice, it is good sound, compliments. it is good, in aesthetic

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The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11263
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:42 pm

Except that mutualism, while seemingly more palatable than other forms of "libertarian" socialism, would in effect justify large scale theft of property so long as it is deemed by some entity that that property is not in use and can be reappropriated.
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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23232
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:47 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:Except that mutualism


c o n s i d e r t h e f a c t t h a t i s p e c i f i c a l l y s a i d , " b i o l o g i c a l m u t u a l i s m , " a s i n n o t t h e p o l i t i c a l i d e o l o g y
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11263
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:48 pm

Torrocca wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:Except that mutualism


c o n s i d e r t h e f a c t t h a t i s p e c i f i c a l l y s a i d , " b i o l o g i c a l m u t u a l i s m , " a s i n n o t t h e p o l i t i c a l i d e o l o g y


Better call Dar then
Radical Libertarian. Currently retired from Nationstates (the forums, at least). Telegram me if you want to reach me.

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23232
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:51 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
c o n s i d e r t h e f a c t t h a t i s p e c i f i c a l l y s a i d , " b i o l o g i c a l m u t u a l i s m , " a s i n n o t t h e p o l i t i c a l i d e o l o g y


Better call Dar then


Don't make me destroy this place with the power of science >:c
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11263
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:54 pm

Torrocca wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Better call Dar then


Don't make me destroy this place with the power of science >:c


Science fiction you mean
Radical Libertarian. Currently retired from Nationstates (the forums, at least). Telegram me if you want to reach me.

Kowani wrote:Hello! Welcome to NSG! Please leave all sanity at the door, and declare with customs any brain cells exceeding 25!

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23232
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:56 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Don't make me destroy this place with the power of science >:c


Science fiction you mean


No, that's Rothbardism :^)
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11263
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:59 pm

Torrocca wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:
Science fiction you mean


No, that's Rothbardism :^)


The Xeer system works well in real life, actually.
Radical Libertarian. Currently retired from Nationstates (the forums, at least). Telegram me if you want to reach me.

Kowani wrote:Hello! Welcome to NSG! Please leave all sanity at the door, and declare with customs any brain cells exceeding 25!

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Page
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9377
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:13 pm

Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.


Depends on the sort of anarchism one is talking about.

I'm not optimistic enough to believe in worldwide statelessness or a great revolution any time soon, but I think the state can be gradually weakened and chipped away at piece by piece, and that we might one day reach a point in which a significant number of independent anarchist communities are able to exist without getting swallowed up by the state.

I believe in anarchy one step at a time.

Consider cannabis. Before cannabis was legal in any US state, in some places like universities thousands of students would gather for mass smoke sessions on 4/20. They would openly break the law in front of the state, but they wouldn't be arrested because law enforcement didn't want to deal with the logistical and PR nightmare of rounding up thousands of people for a victimless crime. And every time this happened, the law against using cannabis was taken a little less seriously. That helped lead to legalization at the state level, and legalization at the state level is putting tremendous pressure on the federal government. More and more states are legalizing cannabis; it's a chain reaction that started with people openly displaying their contempt for prohibition and defying the state. And when we reach a point where the majority of US states have legalized it, the feds will have no choice but to remove it from Schedule 1 prohibition. They will have no choice because when over half the country is deliberately defying them, they look like a joke. It's an untenable position for a government to have a law which isn't being enforced and which the people hold in contempt, because it undermines the law itself, so eventually the federal government will capitulate.

There is a critical mass of people openly defying the law in which governments can no longer enforce it and so they back down. And when it's not just a single law but the state itself that people defy and hold in contempt, that can result in revolution. Revolutions do not necessarily have to be violent, they can be achieved by so many people defying the state that the state acquiesces rather than losing any semblance of legitimacy.
I am a libertarian socialist.
I am ungovernable.
I owe no allegiance to any state.
I am bound to my conscience, not to the law.
I stand for liberty, justice, and peace.

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The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11263
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Capitalizt

Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:18 pm

Page wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.


Depends on the sort of anarchism one is talking about.

I'm not optimistic enough to believe in worldwide statelessness or a great revolution any time soon, but I think the state can be gradually weakened and chipped away at piece by piece, and that we might one day reach a point in which a significant number of independent anarchist communities are able to exist without getting swallowed up by the state.

I believe in anarchy one step at a time.

Consider cannabis. Before cannabis was legal in any US state, in some places like universities thousands of students would gather for mass smoke sessions on 4/20. They would openly break the law in front of the state, but they wouldn't be arrested because law enforcement didn't want to deal with the logistical and PR nightmare of rounding up thousands of people for a victimless crime. And every time this happened, the law against using cannabis was taken a little less seriously. That helped lead to legalization at the state level, and legalization at the state level is putting tremendous pressure on the federal government. More and more states are legalizing cannabis; it's a chain reaction that started with people openly displaying their contempt for prohibition and defying the state. And when we reach a point where the majority of US states have legalized it, the feds will have no choice but to remove it from Schedule 1 prohibition. They will have no choice because when over half the country is deliberately defying them, they look like a joke. It's an untenable position for a government to have a law which isn't being enforced and which the people hold in contempt, because it undermines the law itself, so eventually the federal government will capitulate.

There is a critical mass of people openly defying the law in which governments can no longer enforce it and so they back down. And when it's not just a single law but the state itself that people defy and hold in contempt, that can result in revolution. Revolutions do not necessarily have to be violent, they can be achieved by so many people defying the state that the state acquiesces rather than losing any semblance of legitimacy.


This is very well written, bravo.
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Darussalam
Minister
 
Posts: 2326
Founded: May 15, 2012
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Darussalam » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:55 pm

Torrocca wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:Except that mutualism


c o n s i d e r t h e f a c t t h a t i s p e c i f i c a l l y s a i d , " b i o l o g i c a l m u t u a l i s m , " a s i n n o t t h e p o l i t i c a l i d e o l o g y

Biological mutualism is literally just market specialization, though. I don't know how that could inform anything about collectivist policy preference.
Autarkheia wrote:Anarchists are just idealists. They're not necessarily wrong, they're just ... rather optimistic.

The question of anarchism vs. minarchism is generally a question of feedback loop, or just cybernetics in general - which starting point ensures the optimal result (property rights and market economics in the case of libertarianism), state monopoly or distributed violence?

At least, that is the case for the right. I don't think the left has much in their own theory of public choice.
Last edited by Darussalam on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
for: techno-commercialism, ancient Central Asian shilling, tradcyberpunk, bottom-up urbanism, startup cities, cathedral-spaceships
against: universal morality, egalitarianism, democracy

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