Libertarian Discussion Thread II - Don't Thread on Me

[Torrocca]

You mean they get backstabbed by Bolsheviks whilst simultaneously getting frontstabbed by Nationalists. :^)

You cannot escape it. You either die an anarchist, or live long enough to create a state. ;^}

Fake news. Nearly thirty years of the Zapatistas proves otherwise. :^3

[Aellex]

Given the atrocities committed by Anarchists during the Russian and Spanish revolutions, not to mention the communes, I don't think you're really in any position to talk shit, fam.

Luckily not a common trait of all Anarchists or all Anarchism. :^)

Given most times Anarchists got the faintest glimp of power it ended with church burning, nun raping, summary execution of anyone not liking them and good old slaughtering and pillaging, I can safely disagree with wrong claim of yours. :^]

[Darussalam]

Is thread worried about the libertarian to alt-right pipeline?

ochlos ideologues went down the ochlos way

[Petrolheadia]

Is thread worried about the libertarian to alt-right pipeline?
I saw it happening to me, glad I got it out of my system fairly early.
EDIT: but not before I embarrassed myself by supporting MAGA in 2016

Well, shit happens. Lots of people switch between ideologies all the time.

I'm no more worried about it than liberals becoming communists, centre-rightists becoming reactionaries, etc.

[Torrocca]

Luckily not a common trait of all Anarchists or all Anarchism. :^)

Given most times Anarchists got the faintest glimp of power it ended with church burning,

Oh no! A burnt building! It's not like that happens in the middle of a war, too, which means the Nationalists should take a huge blame for destroying so many buildings from the war they started or anything! Look at all those buildings the Nationalists totally didn't destroy! Never mind the fact that the Catholic Church was pretty much universally supporting the Nationalist war effort in the first place or the fact that most of the churches were put to use for the war effort as warehouses and the like.

nun raping,

Franco's own regime verified that this never happened.

summary execution of anyone not liking them

Far fewer people died from the Red Terror in Catalonia than in the rest of the Republic, and it's likely the majority of the atrocities can be attributed to Stalinist groups anyway. :^3

"According to recent research, some of the Republican death squads were heavily staffed by members of the Soviet Union's secret police, the NKVD. According to author Donald Rayfield, "Stalin, Yezhov, and Beria distrusted Soviet participants in the Spanish war. Military advisors like Vladimir Antonov-Ovseenko, journalists like Koltsov were open to infection by the heresies, especially Trotsky's, prevalent among the Republic's supporters. NKVD agents sent to Spain were therefore keener on abducting and murdering anti-Stalinists among Republican leaders and International Brigade commanders than on fighting Francisco Franco. The defeat of the Republic, in Stalin's eyes, was caused not by the NKVD's diversionary efforts, but by the treachery of the heretics".[31]"

Not that this makes the acts any less reprehensible, of course. Wholesale slaughter for no reason but to commit wholesale slaughter is rightly fucked up no matter what. Which, of course, does make me question why you don't bring up the Red Terror in the context of the White Terror, which was verifiably far greater and far more atrocious in its scale and far worse in its atrocities, which explicitly including rapes, among other horrendous things, unlike the Red Terror that mirrored it.

I can safely disagree with wrong claim of yours. :^]

And I disagree with yours.

[Elwher]

Given most times Anarchists got the faintest glimp of power it ended with church burning,

Oh no! A burnt building! It's not like that happens in the middle of a war, too, which means the Nationalists should take a huge blame for destroying so many buildings from the war they started or anything! Look at all those buildings the Nationalists totally didn't destroy! Never mind the fact that the Catholic Church was pretty much universally supporting the Nationalist war effort in the first place or the fact that most of the churches were put to use for the war effort as warehouses and the like.

nun raping,

Franco's own regime verified that this never happened.

summary execution of anyone not liking them

Far fewer people died from the Red Terror in Catalonia than in the rest of the Republic, and it's likely the majority of the atrocities can be attributed to Stalinist groups anyway. :^3

"According to recent research, some of the Republican death squads were heavily staffed by members of the Soviet Union's secret police, the NKVD. According to author Donald Rayfield, "Stalin, Yezhov, and Beria distrusted Soviet participants in the Spanish war. Military advisors like Vladimir Antonov-Ovseenko, journalists like Koltsov were open to infection by the heresies, especially Trotsky's, prevalent among the Republic's supporters. NKVD agents sent to Spain were therefore keener on abducting and murdering anti-Stalinists among Republican leaders and International Brigade commanders than on fighting Francisco Franco. The defeat of the Republic, in Stalin's eyes, was caused not by the NKVD's diversionary efforts, but by the treachery of the heretics".[31]"

Not that this makes the acts any less reprehensible, of course. Wholesale slaughter for no reason but to commit wholesale slaughter is rightly fucked up no matter what. Which, of course, does make me question why you don't bring up the Red Terror in the context of the White Terror, which was verifiably far greater and far more atrocious in its scale and far worse in its atrocities, which explicitly including rapes, among other horrendous things, unlike the Red Terror that mirrored it.

I can safely disagree with wrong claim of yours. :^]

And I disagree with yours.

If you are going to footnote your quotes rather than include the source in the text, it is considered a good idea to put the actual footnote in the post. Just a suggestion, mind you, and the numbers do make the text look impressive by themselves.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Is thread worried about the libertarian to alt-right pipeline?
I saw it happening to me, glad I got it out of my system fairly early.

Being worried about it won't do much of anything imo. The next generation is probably gonna end up being socialists of various flavors versus fascists of various flavors no matter what unless something serious changes.

What universe, are you living in, lad? All I see are loud, edgy, vocal minority LARPERs running against an increasingly moderate and increasingly (small l) liberal current.

[Kaggeceria]

Being worried about it won't do much of anything imo. The next generation is probably gonna end up being socialists of various flavors versus fascists of various flavors no matter what unless something serious changes.

What universe, are you living in, lad? All I see are loud, edgy, vocal minority LARPERs running against an increasingly moderate and increasingly (small l) liberal current.

>socialism
>moderate

Please pick one and only one, laddie.

In the grim darkness of the near future, there is only war.

[Mushet]

What universe, are you living in, lad? All I see are loud, edgy, vocal minority LARPERs running against an increasingly moderate and increasingly (small l) liberal current.

>socialism
>moderate

Please pick one and only one, laddie.

In the grim darkness of the near future, there is only war.

When did he say socialism?

[Kaggeceria]

>socialism
>moderate

Please pick one and only one, laddie.

In the grim darkness of the near future, there is only war.

When did he say socialism?

He was responding to this:

Being worried about it won't do much of anything imo. The next generation is probably gonna end up being socialists of various flavors versus fascists of various flavors no matter what unless something serious changes.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Being worried about it won't do much of anything imo. The next generation is probably gonna end up being socialists of various flavors versus fascists of various flavors no matter what unless something serious changes.

What universe, are you living in, lad? All I see are loud, edgy, vocal minority LARPERs running against an increasingly moderate and increasingly (small l) liberal current.

The real universe. 10% of Americans are already okay with fascism and just look at the support for socialism on the other side.

[Helensburgh]

Is thread worried about the libertarian to alt-right pipeline?

ochlos ideologues went down the ochlos way

I don't quite know what you mean by this.

Is thread worried about the libertarian to alt-right pipeline?
I saw it happening to me, glad I got it out of my system fairly early.
EDIT: but not before I embarrassed myself by supporting MAGA in 2016

Well, shit happens. Lots of people switch between ideologies all the time.

I'm no more worried about it than liberals becoming communists, centre-rightists becoming reactionaries, etc.

I don't think liberals are becoming communists, but I would be worried if that were the case. The right lurching into reactionary territory is something to worry about, though.

[The Liberated Territories]

In practice, radical socialism and radical fascism do not differ much. There was only a superficial difference between the regimes of Stalin and Hitler, both were tyrannical in nature.

I am very worried about a lurch to either extreme. Many libertarians abandoning libertarianism for the racist socialism of the right is indeed worrying, as it marks a movement away from libertarianism, one that I admit peaked with Ron Paul and the TEA party in 2012 and slowly went down hill from there.

[Internationalist Bastard]

In practice, radical socialism and radical fascism do not differ much. There was only a superficial difference between the regimes of Stalin and Hitler, both were tyrannical in nature.

I am very worried about a lurch to either extreme. Many libertarians abandoning libertarianism for the racist socialism of the right is indeed worrying, as it marks a movement away from libertarianism, one that I admit peaked with Ron Paul and the TEA party in 2012 and slowly went down hill from there.

Honestly I’ve seen this
People have just kinda moved on from always losing to the idea of “screw liberals”

[The Liberated Territories]

In practice, radical socialism and radical fascism do not differ much. There was only a superficial difference between the regimes of Stalin and Hitler, both were tyrannical in nature.

I am very worried about a lurch to either extreme. Many libertarians abandoning libertarianism for the racist socialism of the right is indeed worrying, as it marks a movement away from libertarianism, one that I admit peaked with Ron Paul and the TEA party in 2012 and slowly went down hill from there.

Honestly I’ve seen this
People have just kinda moved on from always losing to the idea of “screw liberals”

Indeed. Why be a loser when you can join the Trump MAGA team and WIN so much you'll get tired of it?

I'm holding out that this is just a phase and will pass too.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Honestly I’ve seen this
People have just kinda moved on from always losing to the idea of “screw liberals”

Indeed. Why be a loser when you can join the Trump MAGA team and WIN so much you'll get tired of it?

I'm holding out that this is just a phase and will pass too.

I highly doubt it

[Elwher]

In practice, radical socialism and radical fascism do not differ much. There was only a superficial difference between the regimes of Stalin and Hitler, both were tyrannical in nature.

I am very worried about a lurch to either extreme. Many libertarians abandoning libertarianism for the racist socialism of the right is indeed worrying, as it marks a movement away from libertarianism, one that I admit peaked with Ron Paul and the TEA party in 2012 and slowly went down hill from there.

Honestly I’ve seen this
People have just kinda moved on from always losing to the idea of “screw liberals”

There is always a conflict between ideological purity and winning. The same thing happened years (alright, decades) ago to the radical left in the US. For a full discussion, see David Zane Mairowitz's The Radical Soap Opera, but a short form is that the various left wing factions spent more energy disputing who was ideologically pure than in fighting against the system, and thereby lost out to the system.

I see the same thing among the Libertarians today, and expect the same result.

[The Liberated Territories]

Honestly I’ve seen this
People have just kinda moved on from always losing to the idea of “screw liberals”

There is always a conflict between ideological purity and winning. The same thing happened years (alright, decades) ago to the radical left in the US. For a full discussion, see David Zane Mairowitz's The Radical Soap Opera, but a short form is that the various left wing factions spent more energy disputing who was ideologically pure than in fighting against the system, and thereby lost out to the system.

I see the same thing among the Libertarians today, and expect the same result.

What are you, some sort of statist?

[Petrolheadia]

There is always a conflict between ideological purity and winning. The same thing happened years (alright, decades) ago to the radical left in the US. For a full discussion, see David Zane Mairowitz's The Radical Soap Opera, but a short form is that the various left wing factions spent more energy disputing who was ideologically pure than in fighting against the system, and thereby lost out to the system.

I see the same thing among the Libertarians today, and expect the same result.

What are you, some sort of statist?

Keep flaunting that score, but what will you do if someone with a 113 or a 122 comes?

[Elwher]

There is always a conflict between ideological purity and winning. The same thing happened years (alright, decades) ago to the radical left in the US. For a full discussion, see David Zane Mairowitz's The Radical Soap Opera, but a short form is that the various left wing factions spent more energy disputing who was ideologically pure than in fighting against the system, and thereby lost out to the system.

I see the same thing among the Libertarians today, and expect the same result.

What are you, some sort of statist?

You say statist, I say realist.

[Zurkerx]

In practice, radical socialism and radical fascism do not differ much. There was only a superficial difference between the regimes of Stalin and Hitler, both were tyrannical in nature.

I am very worried about a lurch to either extreme. Many libertarians abandoning libertarianism for the racist socialism of the right is indeed worrying, as it marks a movement away from libertarianism, one that I admit peaked with Ron Paul and the TEA party in 2012 and slowly went down hill from there.

Well, the Tea Party did have some elements of Libertarianism. Unfortunately, that eroded and was replaced by populism, xenophobia, protectionism, among other things.

I do think this fab will pass and I'll wait it out but, that'll take at least 10 years, and it'll likely be replaced by a left-wing version of it.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

In practice, radical socialism and radical fascism do not differ much. There was only a superficial difference between the regimes of Stalin and Hitler, both were tyrannical in nature.

I am very worried about a lurch to either extreme. Many libertarians abandoning libertarianism for the racist socialism of the right is indeed worrying, as it marks a movement away from libertarianism, one that I admit peaked with Ron Paul and the TEA party in 2012 and slowly went down hill from there.

Well, the Tea Party did have some elements of Libertarianism. Unfortunately, that eroded and was replaced by populism, xenophobia, protectionism, among other things.

I do think this fab will pass and I'll wait it out but, that'll take at least 10 years, and it'll likely be replaced by a left-wing version of it.

The Justice Democrats already claim to be a left-wing equivalent of the tea party, so I'm thinking about four or five years the fab will pass. Unsurprisingly SJWs in the organization have ate their own, and it's very amusing.

[Free Arabian Nation]

What are you, some sort of statist?

Keep flaunting that score, but what will you do if someone with a 113 or a 122 comes?

Or a 160/160?

[Zurkerx]

Well, the Tea Party did have some elements of Libertarianism. Unfortunately, that eroded and was replaced by populism, xenophobia, protectionism, among other things.

I do think this fab will pass and I'll wait it out but, that'll take at least 10 years, and it'll likely be replaced by a left-wing version of it.

The Justice Democrats already claim to be a left-wing equivalent of the tea party, so I'm thinking about four or five years the fab will pass. Unsurprisingly SJWs in the organization have ate their own, and it's very amusing.

Quite though, while the Right Wing version is on the decline, the Left one is on the rise. Both forms are dangerous and a threat to the notions of Liberty, Prosperity, and Security.

[The Liberated Territories]

In practice, radical socialism and radical fascism do not differ much. There was only a superficial difference between the regimes of Stalin and Hitler, both were tyrannical in nature.

I am very worried about a lurch to either extreme. Many libertarians abandoning libertarianism for the racist socialism of the right is indeed worrying, as it marks a movement away from libertarianism, one that I admit peaked with Ron Paul and the TEA party in 2012 and slowly went down hill from there.

Well, the Tea Party did have some elements of Libertarianism. Unfortunately, that eroded and was replaced by populism, xenophobia, protectionism, among other things.

I do think this fab will pass and I'll wait it out but, that'll take at least 10 years, and it'll likely be replaced by a left-wing version of it.

The Tea Party are anarchists compared to the Alt-Right.

Never thought I'd want the Tea Party to come back.