Libertarian Discussion Thread II - Don't Thread on Me

[The Liberated Territories]

Indeed. Much as take a huge disliking to capitalism, I'm still happy to work with other libertarians to bring a freer society - same with other leftists, no matter how authoritarian (so long as - in the case of leftism - different forms of leftist societies are able to be created should people wish; you probably won't find me happily living in a marxist-leninist society ).

That brings up something I find somewhat confusing. Most of the capitalist libertarians I know of would have no problem with a group deciding to run a communal/socialist enclave in their society (although most would also claim it would be unsuccessful). It seems, and I may be judging by too small a sample, that most socialist libertarians do not share the same willingness to allow a capitalist enclave in their society. Is this the case, do you think, and if so, why?

This is why Physical Removal is the hot new trend among libertarians!

[South Odreria 2]

Indeed. Much as take a huge disliking to capitalism, I'm still happy to work with other libertarians to bring a freer society - same with other leftists, no matter how authoritarian (so long as - in the case of leftism - different forms of leftist societies are able to be created should people wish; you probably won't find me happily living in a marxist-leninist society ).

That brings up something I find somewhat confusing. Most of the capitalist libertarians I know of would have no problem with a group deciding to run a communal/socialist enclave in their society (although most would also claim it would be unsuccessful). It seems, and I may be judging by too small a sample, that most socialist libertarians do not share the same willingness to allow a capitalist enclave in their society. Is this the case, do you think, and if so, why?

“Why won’t communists allow private ownership of the means of production?”

[Borderlands of Rojava]

As an anti capitalist liberterian, my primary focus above all else is maximizing freedom. I'm as anti Islamist and anti Maoist as I am anti vulture capitalism.

[Northern Davincia]

That brings up something I find somewhat confusing. Most of the capitalist libertarians I know of would have no problem with a group deciding to run a communal/socialist enclave in their society (although most would also claim it would be unsuccessful). It seems, and I may be judging by too small a sample, that most socialist libertarians do not share the same willingness to allow a capitalist enclave in their society. Is this the case, do you think, and if so, why?

“Why won’t communists allow private ownership of the means of production?”

The point is that the libertarian is willing to give the commies their own little corner of the globe to manage, but their ingratitude supersedes their reason.

[South Odreria 2]

“Why won’t communists allow private ownership of the means of production?”

The point is that the libertarian is willing to give the commies their own little corner of the globe to manage, but their ingratitude supersedes their reason.

Oh you know this isn’t true. It’s a class struggle, may the best side win.

[Northern Davincia]

The point is that the libertarian is willing to give the commies their own little corner of the globe to manage, but their ingratitude supersedes their reason.

Oh you know this isn’t true. It’s a class struggle, may the best side win.

I know, but it's not what I want. If I could make it so, every communist would be living in a utopia on, say, Europa, or anywhere that is far from Earth.
I'll believe it's class struggle when the leftist movement is not run by upper middle class white academics.

[South Odreria 2]

Oh you know this isn’t true. It’s a class struggle, may the best side win.

I know, but it's not what I want. If I could make it so, every communist would be living in a utopia on, say, Europa, or anywhere that is far from Earth.
I'll believe it's class struggle when the leftist movement is not run by upper middle class white academics.

I run the leftist movement so there you are.

[Kowani]

Oh you know this isn’t true. It’s a class struggle, may the best side win.

I know, but it's not what I want. If I could make it so, every communist would be living in a utopia on, say, Europa, or anywhere that is far from Earth.
I'll believe it's class struggle when the leftist movement is not run by upper middle class white academics.

Ironically, black people have the best view of socialism of any ethnic group.

[South Odreria 2]

I know, but it's not what I want. If I could make it so, every communist would be living in a utopia on, say, Europa, or anywhere that is far from Earth.
I'll believe it's class struggle when the leftist movement is not run by upper middle class white academics.

Ironically, black people have the best view of socialism of any ethnic group.

I was hoping they had the best view of it unironically

[Northern Davincia]

I know, but it's not what I want. If I could make it so, every communist would be living in a utopia on, say, Europa, or anywhere that is far from Earth.
I'll believe it's class struggle when the leftist movement is not run by upper middle class white academics.

Ironically, black people have the best view of socialism of any ethnic group.

I am not surprised, but it means little.

[The Liberated Territories]

I know, but it's not what I want. If I could make it so, every communist would be living in a utopia on, say, Europa, or anywhere that is far from Earth.
I'll believe it's class struggle when the leftist movement is not run by upper middle class white academics.

Ironically, black people have the best view of socialism of any ethnic group.

indoctrination of an entire race

[Shanghai industrial complex]

I know, but it's not what I want. If I could make it so, every communist would be living in a utopia on, say, Europa, or anywhere that is far from Earth.
I'll believe it's class struggle when the leftist movement is not run by upper middle class white academics.

Ironically, black people have the best view of socialism of any ethnic group.

You might say the people at the bottom.Because they need socialism most urgently.

[Duvniask]

“Why won’t communists allow private ownership of the means of production?”

The point is that the libertarian is willing to give the commies their own little corner of the globe to manage, but their ingratitude supersedes their reason.

What's unreasonable here is to suggest this utopianism is going to work, which is to say nothing of the complete capitulation to moral relativism. Why in God's name would someone opposed to class society allow it to exist as a powerful force that can come breathing down your neck and impose itself on you any time - and by the way, it is the grandest sort of naivete to suggest that won't happen. This "ingratitude" as you call it is only a difference of degree away from the ingratitude of abolitionists beings told to leave for the North during the Antebellum era: "How ungrateful you are, we allow you to go live in a society that doesn't practice slavery!"

[Nuroblav]

What's unreasonable here is to suggest this utopianism is going to work, which is to say nothing of the complete capitulation to moral relativism. Why in God's name would someone opposed to class society allow it to exist as a powerful force that can come breathing down your neck and impose itself on you any time - and by the way, it is the grandest sort of naivete to suggest that won't happen. This "ingratitude" as you call it is only a difference of degree away from the ingratitude of abolitionists beings told to leave for the North during the Antebellum era: "How ungrateful you are, we allow you to go live in a society that doesn't practice slavery!"

It all kinda reminds me of an argument that gets thrown around a bit: "If you don't like America, just leave!" It ignores the fact that people may wish to fight for a better society, rather than simply leaving in cowardice.

[Elwher]

The point is that the libertarian is willing to give the commies their own little corner of the globe to manage, but their ingratitude supersedes their reason.

What's unreasonable here is to suggest this utopianism is going to work, which is to say nothing of the complete capitulation to moral relativism. Why in God's name would someone opposed to class society allow it to exist as a powerful force that can come breathing down your neck and impose itself on you any time - and by the way, it is the grandest sort of naivete to suggest that won't happen. This "ingratitude" as you call it is only a difference of degree away from the ingratitude of abolitionists beings told to leave for the North during the Antebellum era: "How ungrateful you are, we allow you to go live in a society that doesn't practice slavery!"

Aside from the fact that you think you're right and they're wrong, how does your imposing your morality on all people differ from the Fundamentalist Christians who want to impose their morality on all? I thought the left was all in favor of freedom of belief?

[Duvniask]

What's unreasonable here is to suggest this utopianism is going to work, which is to say nothing of the complete capitulation to moral relativism. Why in God's name would someone opposed to class society allow it to exist as a powerful force that can come breathing down your neck and impose itself on you any time - and by the way, it is the grandest sort of naivete to suggest that won't happen. This "ingratitude" as you call it is only a difference of degree away from the ingratitude of abolitionists beings told to leave for the North during the Antebellum era: "How ungrateful you are, we allow you to go live in a society that doesn't practice slavery!"

Aside from the fact that you think you're right and they're wrong, how does your imposing your morality on all people differ from the Fundamentalist Christians who want to impose their morality on all?

What even is this? All societies "impose their morality", all societies indoctrinate those that grow up within it, molding them to its values through familial upbringing, education, ostracization and sometimes violence. It's total foolishness to think what you wish for is any different, unless you're literally just going to retreat into a cave by yourself. Society, in other words our social existence as human beings, exists under rules and norms - I'm not going to pretend that those rules shouldn't be grounded in ethical principles.

I thought the left was all in favor of freedom of belief?

And you're shifting the issue here, because I was not merely talking about "freedom of belief" in itself. If someone believes slavery is good, that by itself has nothing to do with the fact that no decent person is just going to sit by as they actually start enslaving people.

[Kowani]

Ironically, black people have the best view of socialism of any ethnic group.

You might say the people at the bottom.Because they need socialism most urgently.

That would do it, yes. There’s a reason why on that page, support for socialism is negatively correlated with income.

[Phoenicaea]

it is a matter of definition. your roaming about ‘socialism’ turned preposterious, much people doesn’t mean that, and it got a futile discussion.

[Northern Davincia]

The point is that the libertarian is willing to give the commies their own little corner of the globe to manage, but their ingratitude supersedes their reason.

What's unreasonable here is to suggest this utopianism is going to work, which is to say nothing of the complete capitulation to moral relativism. Why in God's name would someone opposed to class society allow it to exist as a powerful force that can come breathing down your neck and impose itself on you any time - and by the way, it is the grandest sort of naivete to suggest that won't happen. This "ingratitude" as you call it is only a difference of degree away from the ingratitude of abolitionists beings told to leave for the North during the Antebellum era: "How ungrateful you are, we allow you to go live in a society that doesn't practice slavery!"

An eternal Cold War is the workable version of our utopia scenario.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Founders come first (Herbert Marcuse) then profiteers (NSG)

[The Liberated Territories]

As a rich wealthy tycoon, i think i should benefit thremost from wealth distribution. After all, my industry employs millions of people and is an essential service to many. Hence why i should be bailed out, subsidized and supported with stimulus.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Generally I think this tends to be where the right-libertarians are, but alas, here I am anyway

There may be more of the right-libertarians here, but we have had some fascinating multi=page discussions with the left-libertarians as well. To me, a true libertarian has to accept the entire spectrum of libertarianism as valid, otherwise one is supporting a form of authoritarianism.

There are a fair few "libertarians" who would say otherwise. The Hoppeans come to mind.

[The Liberated Territories]

Generally I think this tends to be where the right-libertarians are, but alas, here I am anyway

There may be more of the right-libertarians here, but we have had some fascinating multi=page discussions with the left-libertarians as well. To me, a true libertarian has to accept the entire spectrum of libertarianism as valid, otherwise one is supporting a form of authoritarianism.

I will trample all over left-libs with my Redwings

[Kedri]

So, I'm wondering if I qualify as a libertarian?

I find myself agreeing with a lot of it, but I think I may have one or two stances that might be un-libertarian.

The first thing is that it seems like a lot of libertarians support open borders, and I don't. I do support immigration reform and I think immigrants are generally good for our country, but we still need to enforce our borders and make sure they respect our laws and values.

The other thing is capital punishment. I also support reforming this, and it should be used very sparingly and only with overwhelming evidence. Even then, it should be reserved only for unrepentant murderers like serial killers and terrorists.

Are either of these incompatible?

[The Reformed American Republic]

So, I'm wondering if I qualify as a libertarian?

I find myself agreeing with a lot of it, but I think I may have one or two stances that might be un-libertarian.

The first thing is that it seems like a lot of libertarians support open borders, and I don't. I do support immigration reform and I think immigrants are generally good for our country, but we still need to enforce our borders and make sure they respect our laws and values.

The other thing is capital punishment. I also support reforming this, and it should be used very sparingly and only with overwhelming evidence. Even then, it should be reserved only for unrepentant murderers like serial killers and terrorists.

Are either of these incompatible?

I'm a former libertarian, and I can tell you that they are not incompatible. You are in the minority on both opinions, but you still qualify.